(Topic ID: 206843)

Dialed In Wireform Design


By snaroff

1 year ago



Topic Stats

  • 66 posts
  • 29 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 1 year ago by moonduckie78
  • Topic is favorited by 3 Pinsiders

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Topic poll

“Would you pay for a wireform upgrade if it nailed the 2 issues detailed in this post?”

  • Yes. 12 votes
    15%
  • No. I expect JJP to upgrade the customer base for free. 23 votes
    29%
  • Don't care. The wireform shoots fine for me. 43 votes
    55%

(78 votes)

Topic Gallery

There have been 7 images uploaded to this topic. (View topic image gallery).

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There are 66 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 2.
#51 1 year ago
Quoted from crwjumper:

And it would be nice if we got the hard copy of the owner's manual that they promised as well.

Someday...

#52 1 year ago
Quoted from Marvin:

I'll move on when you do, when you find something you don't like and stop calling it a design flaw that need to be fixed.

Please stop lying. I never said this was a "design flaw that needed to be fixed". I did say "The Borg/AS wireform design is arguably more robust and was designed to handle balls traveling at high speeds.". And I stand by that statement.

Without seeing the specifications for the part, it's impossible for either of us to know if it is a design or manufacturing flaw. The fact that JJP developed a plastic cage to keep the ball from bouncing out and draining would suggest the wireform design is flawed.

Fact is, some of these ramps are bent differently than others. Some bends promote the bounce, other bends prevent the bounce. If the plastic cage they developed was capable of solving the bounce problem, I'm sure they would have incorporated it.

It's my post and I'll say what I believe. If my comments are so disturbing/annoying to you, it's possible to ignore this post or me entirely. Please?

snaroff

#53 1 year ago

I can see how the stern design is better here:

pasted_image (resized).png

It seems to be designed to deflect the ball down, rather than stop and drop like on the JJP design:

pasted_image (resized).png
#54 1 year ago
Quoted from ForceFlow:

I can see how the stern design is better here:

It seems to be designed to deflect the ball down, rather than stop and drop like on the JJP design:

Exactly...not rocket science

When the ball stays on the wireform, it's "Stop and drop".
When the ball goes off the rails, it's "Bounce and dribble down".

The slow motion videos tell the story. If you look at it frame-by-frame, the ball is airborne about 2" before hitting the end of the wireform. Because it is airborne, it hits the ball in a spot that causes it to bounce back rather than "drop".

snaroff

#55 1 year ago
Quoted from crwjumper:

And it would be nice if we got the hard copy of the owner's manual that they promised as well.

The online copy works great for me. It's almost 300 pages...searching/indexing/etc. is really useful.

snaroff

#56 1 year ago

Now I'm starting to wonder if a gradual wedge opening might be better, rather than just a snug round opening at the end of the wireform ramp. It could be a smoother transition going off the ramp and into the inlane, but the speed of the ball could be an issue.

With traditional wireform designs, the ball speed does get reduced before dropping to the inlane because it strikes something as it reaches the end.

wireform (resized).jpg

#57 1 year ago
Quoted from ForceFlow:

wonder if a gradual wedge opening might be better, rather than just a snug round opening at the end of the wireform ramp.

pretty sure that is part of the reason JM ramp returns are so awesome?

Just a square hole but larger than the ball and for the right side it is cut and an angle so it acts like a wedge opening. Keeps ball speed way up and smooth.

#58 1 year ago
Quoted from ForceFlow:

Now I'm starting to wonder if a gradual wedge opening might be better, rather than just a snug round opening at the end of the wireform ramp. It could be a smoother transition going off the ramp and into the inlane, but the speed of the ball could be an issue.
With traditional wireform designs, the ball speed does get reduced before dropping to the inlane because it strikes something as it reaches the end.

A wedge might help, but if you look at the video frame-by-frame, you can see that the ball becomes airborne where the fastening rod is connected (2" from the end). If the ball is airborne and goes "off the rails" prior to the wedge start, it wouldn't help this case.

Before analyzing the video, I was convinced a wedge might solve this problem.

Nice diagram, btw! Thanks for contributing...keep the ideas coming.

I actually just did some minor adjustments and believe it's happening far less now. I need to do more testing and report back.

snaroff

#59 1 year ago

Do any of you have a photo of the plastic piece that JJP designed to stop the bounce outs?

#60 1 year ago

Some Gottlieb ramps were open ended, and the balls drop of those ramps pretty smoothly:

https://pinside.com/pinball/market/classifieds/ad/56908

#61 1 year ago
Quoted from Robo1:

Do any of you have a photo of the plastic piece that JJP designed to stop the bounce outs?

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/dialed-in-owners-and-fans-club/page/42#post-4134733

snaroff

#62 1 year ago

So after studying the video a bit more, I decided to adjust the wireform with the goal of keeping the ball on the rails.

As soon as the ball goes off the rails, all bets are off (the design of the wireform isn't very forgiving).

I did the following:

- shimmed the ramp up 1/8" using 2 plastic washers.
- moved the ramp ~1/4" closer to the player.
- bent the ramp up a bit by hand. Not sure I had much impact, since the metal doesn't bend easily (1/8" max).

I've played 5 games hammering the ramp and it hasn't failed once. No bounce outs or bounce ups. Before/after photos attached.

Left wireform finally playing smoothly...very jazzed

Hope my experience will help other folks having this problem Dial In their game!

snaroff

Screen Shot 2018-01-10 at 4.17.18 PM (resized).png

Screen Shot 2018-01-10 at 4.22.14 PM (resized).png

#63 1 year ago
Quoted from snaroff:

So after studying the video a bit more, I decided to adjust the wireform with the goal of keeping the ball on the rails.
As soon as the ball goes off the rails, all bets are off (the design of the wireform isn't very forgiving).
I did the following:
- shimmed the ramp up 1/8" using 2 plastic washers.
- moved the ramp ~1/4" closer to the player.
- bent the ramp up a bit by hand. Not sure I had much impact, since the metal doesn't bend easily (1/8" max).
I've played 5 games hammering the ramp and it hasn't failed once. No bounce outs or bounce ups. Before/after photos attached.
Left wireform finally playing smoothly...very jazzed
Hope my experience will help other folks having this problem Dial In their game!
snaroff

New video please?

#64 1 year ago
Quoted from DennisDodel:

New video please?

Sure. It won't be as exciting, but I'll try and take one tomorrow after I do a bit more testing.

snaroff

#65 1 year ago
Quoted from DennisDodel:

New video please?

Here ya go...the before/after videos can be found here:

https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0dJsHvHoJ8Umaa

Thanks for asking for this...had no plans to take another video but ended up learning something from it.

Based on the improved ball motion, I would have bet the ball was no longer going "off the rails". Turns out it is still going "off the rails", but the new pitch/position of the wireform is more forgiving than the factory location. The ball hits slightly topside (which forces it down into the hole), instead of it hitting smack in the middle or slightly underneath (which forces it back up the wireform or out of the cage entirely).

Just to be clear, I don't believe this is a 100% solution, but now the bounce backs are happening MUCH less frequently. Maybe 1-of-50 shots down from of 1-of-2.5. 2% bounce backs doesn't bother me at all! Haven't had ANY bounce outs, so it's unlikely I will install the plastic protector.

Would still prefer a more defensive design to avoid bounce outs & bounce backs entirely, but that's a JJP decision.

Just relieved I found an acceptable solution. The left ramp shots are much more fun without watching the ball bounce and dribble 40% of the time!

snaroff

1 month later
#66 1 year ago

The plastic guard JJP sent me corrected both issues #1 and #2. I have no more bounce-backs OR bounce-outs.

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There are 66 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 2.

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