Dialed In Wireform Design

(Topic ID: 206843)

Dialed In Wireform Design


By snaroff

11 months ago



Topic Stats

  • 66 posts
  • 29 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 10 months ago by moonduckie78
  • Topic is favorited by 3 Pinsiders

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Topic poll

“Would you pay for a wireform upgrade if it nailed the 2 issues detailed in this post?”

  • Yes. 11 votes
    14%
  • No. I expect JJP to upgrade the customer base for free. 23 votes
    30%
  • Don't care. The wireform shoots fine for me. 42 votes
    55%

(76 votes)

Topic Gallery

There have been 7 images uploaded to this topic. (View topic image gallery).

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There are 66 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
#1 11 months ago

Hey DI owners,

Based on other DI threads, folks have noticed the wireform feeding the left inlane exhibit's the following issues when the ball is traveling at high speeds:

#1: The ball can escape the wireform, resulting in frustrating drains.
#2: The ball can bounce a couple inches up the ramp and dribble down, slowing game play.

On my game, #1 rarely happens after minor adjustments to the precise resting location of the ramp.
On my game, #2 happens very often and would be nice to fix.

JJP has developed a plastic cover that eliminates #1, however doesn't address #2.

Earlier today, I was playing Aerosmith (right beside DILE in the lineup) and noticed how lightening fast the right ramp/wireform plays. Ball never escapes and never bounces...shoots fast & smooth. I decided to compare the designs - here is what I noticed:

#1: The AS wireform has a built-in cage, which prevents the ball from escaping. DI has no cage.
#2: The AS wireform exit top is tapered up, which avoids ball bounce. The taper encourages the ball to exit quickly, by striking it up top, not in the center.
#3: The AS wireform trail is 7/8" and the DI wireform trail is 3/4". The ball sits a tad lower, avoiding direct contact with the wireform and ball bounce.

I'd love to see JJP redesign the *exit portion* of the wireform to work more smoothly.

To demonstrate the difference in ball motion/flow, here are 2 slow motion videos of the ramp exit in action:

DI: https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0dJsHvHoJ8Umaa
Aerosmith: https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0dGKQPy6GO7UwH

From my perspective, Dialed In is one of the best shooting games of all-time and would benefit from this enhancement. Since this wireform is long & costly, I'd be happy to pay for a new wireform if JJP re-engineered it to fix both problems.

Curious if other DI owners would like to see a more complete solution (than the plastic cover currently being installed).

Thoughts?

snaroff

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-1
#2 11 months ago

Why would anyone pay to replace an already correctly functioning part. There's nothing wrong with it bouncing up the ramp occasionally. The bounce out is rare, and there is a fix for it.

#3 11 months ago

Never really had much of an issue with mine.

Def never seen issue #2

#4 11 months ago

Out of hundreds of plays I think mine has done it twice and they where laser shots.

#5 11 months ago

Never had any problems with mine either.

#6 11 months ago

Hmmm - this has never happened on my game, not even once (as far as I remember).

#7 11 months ago

Never had either of these problems.

#8 11 months ago

Neither apply to my game it's fine.

#9 11 months ago

I have only had it bounce off the habitrail once. It has also caught mild airballs from hard shots off the Quantum robot. Those balls tend to spin unpredictably, and if they catch the wireform they instead go safely to left flipper. They may occasionally cause a drain. But they also might save one. Much like the trolls of MM, which I think actually save more drains than they cause when they're in play.

#10 11 months ago

#1 has happened to me few times. Usually when I'm having a great game. I'd consider something depending on price.

#11 11 months ago

What about the phone scoop shooting the ball into the wireform? That stinks. Happens on the one near me every time. What’s the fix for that?

#12 11 months ago

Mine often bounces back up the ramp 50-70mm and slowly dribbles back down. I would say around 30%-40% of fast shots do it.

#13 11 months ago

Had similar issues as well. Not super common but mine was setup a over 7deg so didn't think much I to looking into a fix.

My Hobbit had some crazy issues with right ramp spin outs.
I think they just need to copy the end style of how stern does it in their next game as I've never had issues with the end of a Stern wire form

#14 11 months ago
Quoted from chuckwurt:

What about the phone scoop shooting the ball into the wireform? That stinks. Happens on the one near me every time. What’s the fix for that?

Turn the scoop (vuk) power down or check the angle of then curve at the scoop exit.

#15 11 months ago
Quoted from chuckwurt:

What about the phone scoop shooting the ball into the wireform? That stinks. Happens on the one near me every time. What’s the fix for that?

We turned down the scoop kickout strength from 20 to 17. No problems after that minor change.

#16 11 months ago
Quoted from Marvin:

Why would anyone pay to replace an already correctly functioning part. There's nothing wrong with it bouncing up the ramp occasionally. The bounce out is rare, and there is a fix for it.

For my machine, the bouncing up is frequent...not occasional.

As I said in my original post, the frequency of this happening is directly related to the ball speed. Sounds like my machine shoots faster than yours. My coil settings are 100% default from factory. No doubt dialing down my flippers would diminish the ball bounce.

Quoted from FalconPunch:

Had similar issues as well. Not super common but mine was setup a over 7deg so didn't think much I to looking into a fix.
My Hobbit had some crazy issues with right ramp spin outs.
I think they just need to copy the end style of how stern does it in their next game as I've never had issues with the end of a Stern wire form

Precisely my point. The Borg/AS wireform design is arguably more robust and was designed to handle balls traveling at high speeds.

At the moment, 42% would like to see the wireform improved to better handle balls traveling at high speeds.

Thanks to the 33 folks that participated in the poll!

snaroff

#17 11 months ago

I don't see the poll, did you take it down?
I've had it jump out a couple of times. Well, actually, my wife has, so that doesn't bother me at all ! (I have reached out to JJP to get the guard.) As far as it rolling up the ramp a bit, that happens much more often; however, it doesn't bother me. Bottom line, while I might spend a couple of bucks for an improved wireform, I am confident that what I would be willing to spend is less than what it would cost.

#18 11 months ago
Quoted from Oldgoat:

I don't see the poll, did you take it down?
I've had it jump out a couple of times. Well, actually, my wife has, so that doesn't bother me at all ! (I have reached out to JJP to get the guard.) As far as it rolling up the ramp a bit, that happens much more often; however, it doesn't bother me. Bottom line, while I might spend a couple of bucks for an improved wireform, I am confident that what I would be willing to spend is less than what it would cost.

I didn't touch the poll...odd. Please check again...it's short, so maybe you missed it?

Here is a 15 second video I just shot to clearly identify the issue. It looks more dramatic in slo-motion, however it shows how far the ball bounces. This happens often on my machine.

https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0dJsHvHoJ8Umaa

Still love the way DI shoots, but fixing this problem would improve it from my perspective considerably. It's a very common shot.

snaroff

-2
#19 11 months ago
Quoted from snaroff:

For my machine, the bouncing up is frequent...not occasional.
As I said in my original post, the frequency of this happening is directly related to the ball speed. Sounds like my machine shoots faster than yours. My coil settings are 100% default from factory. No doubt dialing down my flippers would diminish the ball bounce.

Precisely my point. The Borg/AS wireform design is arguably more robust and was designed to handle balls traveling at high speeds.
At the moment, 42% would like to see the wireform improved to better handle balls traveling at high speeds.
Thanks to the 33 folks that participated in the poll!
snaroff

Bouncing back up the ramp isn't a problem, you may find it an annoyance, but it's not a problem. Falling of the ramp is a problem (the few times it happens) and they have a fix for it already.

#20 11 months ago
Quoted from Marvin:

Bouncing back up the ramp isn't a problem, you may find it an annoyance, but it's not a problem. Falling of the ramp is a problem (the few times it happens) and they have a fix for it already.

Again, I view it differently. Here's my perspective...

If 1 out of 100 balls fall off the ramp, it's not a big deal. So the fix they've come up with doesn't impact me, since it happens so infrequently on my machine.

If 1 of 3 balls bounces (as shown in the video), it's a constant annoyance that disturbs the otherwise awesome flow of this game.

If you aren't willing to acknowledge the Borg/AS wireform design is more robust again drains/bounces, then I don't know what else to say!

snaroff

-1
#21 11 months ago
Quoted from snaroff:

Again, I view it differently. Here's my perspective...
If 1 out of 100 balls fall off the ramp, it's not a big deal. So the fix they've come up with doesn't impact me, since it happens so infrequently on my machine.
If 1 of 3 balls bounces (as shown in the video), it's a constant annoyance that disturbs the otherwise awesome flow of this game.
If you aren't willing to acknowledge the Borg/AS wireform design is more robust again drains/bounces, then I don't know what else to say!
snaroff

If the ball goes up the ramp, then winds up in the in lane where it's supposed to be it's working. Your annoyance isn't relevant. There is no reason for JJP to replace functioning parts for anyone just because they are annoyed with it. If it was failing that's a different story. It is not failing. These are mechanical items, if your want everything to be the same every time play virtual pinball. Variance and inconsistency, with working items, is part of pinball.

#22 11 months ago
Quoted from Marvin:

If the ball goes up the ramp, then winds up in the in lane where it's supposed to be it's working. Your annoyance isn't relevant. There is no reason for JJP to replace functioning parts for anyone just because they are annoyed with it. If it was failing that's a different story. It is not failing. These are mechanical items, if your want everything to be the same every time play virtual pinball. Variance and inconsistency, with working items, is part of pinball.

I have to give you one thing...you are tenacious!

Using your argument above, the following would also be considered acceptable since the ball didn't actually fall off the ramp.

https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0dJ058xyJRiHDa

snaroff

#23 11 months ago

I agree that it is very annoying. If you could shoot a slow mo of how the right ramp delivers the ball it would really emphasize the difference.

#24 11 months ago
Quoted from mtdouble:

I agree that it is very annoying. If you could shoot a slow mo of how the right ramp delivers the ball it would really emphasize the difference.

On DI or AS? Not really interested in investing more time in this...showing what a smooth shooting wireform looks like should be fairly obvious

The poll shows I'm not the only one that would like to see it improved. I also pinged JJP...even if nothing is done for DI, hopefully they will consider the issues for the next game.

In any event, it's really not a major issue. On the positive side, the bounce gives you more time to plan your next shot. There ya go, it's not a bug...it's a feature!

If I didn't love the game so much, I wouldn't have invested any time on something like this!

snaroff

#25 11 months ago
Quoted from snaroff:

I have to give you one thing...you are tenacious!
Using your argument above, the following would also be considered acceptable since the ball didn't actually fall off the ramp.
https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0dJ058xyJRiHDa
snaroff

That parts in the game were completely acceptable. You hacked the ramp to make it function rather than fixing it right. But no new parts were needed.

#26 11 months ago
Quoted from Marvin:

If the ball goes up the ramp, then winds up in the in lane where it's supposed to be it's working. Your annoyance isn't relevant. There is no reason for JJP to replace functioning parts for anyone just because they are annoyed with it. If it was failing that's a different story. It is not failing. These are mechanical items, if your want everything to be the same every time play virtual pinball. Variance and inconsistency, with working items, is part of pinball.

This. It's one of those variable things that make real pinball worth seeking out to play. If DI ever got digitized into Pinball Arcade, unless they revamped the physics engine, this would never happen because there is never sidespin. Everything rebounds off everything rolling straight ahead to its destination.

The habitrail over the center PF looks great as is. More wires might help keep a ball on it 100 percent of the time, but would clutter up the visuals to fix an occasional oddity. There is so much better to see on this board than a jungle of wireform. It's the same two-wire rail that leads to the whirlpool in CFTBL, and it's fine on that table because by the time it gets there, it's rolled along a long ramp and any sidespin has straightened out. The ball can have sidespin by the time coming straight off a flipper into the right ramp in DI, especially if anything altered its course there. Just be prepared.

#27 11 months ago

I am constantly having both of these issues with my machine. I used the iphone app to level the game side to side with a 6.5 degree pitch. I then bought a digital level just to make sure. I have tried all of the tricks that I have read others posting about, but continue to have both issues. I agree with Snaroff that both #1 and #2 are problems not just annoying. I have played other DI's and watched videos of other DI's where the ball instantly drops at the outlet. Hopefully there is a resolution.

Yes, I would like a better solution than the plastic guard.

#28 11 months ago
Quoted from Marvin:

That parts in the game were completely acceptable. You hacked the ramp to make it function rather than fixing it right. But no new parts were needed.

How is the fix not right when it was suggested by Pat Lawlor, the games designer? Do you think Pat/JJP asked me the "hack" the ramp because they changed the ramp and don't want to send me a new one? When I was getting JJP's help on the issue back in November, you weighed in and were consistently wrong...arguing the switches were somehow responsible (which I disproved pretty quickly).

If it isn't obvious, these are rhetorical questions. Please don't feel compelled to answer.

snaroff

#29 11 months ago
Quoted from jfre81:

This. It's one of those variable things that make real pinball worth seeking out to play. If DI ever got digitized into Pinball Arcade, unless they revamped the physics engine, this would never happen because there is never sidespin. Everything rebounds off everything rolling straight ahead to its destination.
The habitrail over the center PF looks great as is. More wires might help keep a ball on it 100 percent of the time, but would clutter up the visuals to fix an occasional oddity. There is so much better to see on this board than a jungle of wireform. It's the same two-wire rail that leads to the whirlpool in CFTBL, and it's fine on that table because by the time it gets there, it's rolled along a long ramp and any sidespin has straightened out. The ball can have sidespin by the time coming straight off a flipper into the right ramp in DI, especially if anything altered its course there. Just be prepared.

You are imagining changes that I am not suggesting. As you say, the habitrail over the center PF looks great as is. No debate.

This can be fixed with modest changes to the last 2 inches of wireform (the same segment that is covered by the plastic enclosure that JJP developed to keep the ball from falling off).

snaroff

#30 11 months ago

I’ve (fortunately) never had this problem on mine. But I see how efficient the AS habbitrail exit is. Learning to deal with this type of issue when designing the part comes from building many thousands of pins I guess.
I voted that it doesn’t happen to me, but I want to qualify the “Don’t care” part of my vote: I do care and I’m sure that JJP will find a way to make it right. The plastic addition looks OK as a solution but I wonder how long it would last. A whole new habbitrail is a very expensive thing to produce/buy. A good compromise solution might be to create a small metal add-on piece of habbitrail that could be attached in place of the plastic remedy that JJP is offering. In my mind it would uphold the quality look and feel of JJP’s masterpiece game.
BTW: Trippy video Snaroff! Love the sound effects!

#31 11 months ago

Doesn't affect gameplay imo. I don't really think it matters that much.

-1
#32 11 months ago
Quoted from snaroff:

How is the fix not right when it was suggested by Pat Lawlor, the games designer? Do you think Pat/JJP asked me the "hack" the ramp because they changed the ramp and don't want to send me a new one? When I was getting JJP's help on the issue back in November, you weighed in and were consistently wrong...arguing the switches were somehow responsible (which I disproved pretty quickly).
If it isn't obvious, these are rhetorical questions. Please don't feel compelled to answer.
snaroff

Drilling a new hole in the ramp and forcing it into another position is a hack regardless if Pat or Steven Hawking suggested it. They didn't change the ramp design in just your game it's the same as the rest that that quirk fine. You found a way to mask, rather than fix, the real issue. The only think you proved was you'd rather hack your game than fix it right. I feel sorry for whoever gets your game later.

#33 11 months ago

Received my replacement ramp from JJP today. Just waiting for my updated phone Cliffy to arrive, and then find a day when I have some time, and I'll test it out and report back.

#34 11 months ago
Quoted from Marvin:

Drilling a new hole in the ramp and forcing it into another position is a hack regardless if Pat or Steven Hawking suggested it. They didn't change the ramp design in just your game it's the same as the rest that that quirk fine. You found a way to mask, rather than fix, the real issue. The only think you proved was you'd rather hack your game than fix it right. I feel sorry for whoever gets your game later.

I have no plans to sell Dialed In, but I've sold many games over the years and have never had one unhappy customer. Not one. Some of the most critical players/collectors on both coasts have played my games and always comment on the beauty, condition, and gameplay.

Listen, the poll speaks for itself...46% of owners care about the wireform design issues. I'm not alone.

Is it practical to expect a DI wireform rework to avoid the issues I've outlined? Maybe not, but it doesn't hurt to point out that Stern designers figured out how to solve these problems. From my perspective, the plastic cage is a half-hearted, stop-gap solution.

At a minimum, I'm hopeful JJP will improve the wireform design in their next pinball!

snaroff

#35 11 months ago
Quoted from crwjumper:

I’ve (fortunately) never had this problem on mine. But I see how efficient the AS habbitrail exit is. Learning to deal with this type of issue when designing the part comes from building many thousands of pins I guess.
I voted that it doesn’t happen to me, but I want to qualify the “Don’t care” part of my vote: I do care and I’m sure that JJP will find a way to make it right. The plastic addition looks OK as a solution but I wonder how long it would last. A whole new habbitrail is a very expensive thing to produce/buy. A good compromise solution might be to create a small metal add-on piece of habbitrail that could be attached in place of the plastic remedy that JJP is offering. In my mind it would uphold the quality look and feel of JJP’s masterpiece game.
BTW: Trippy video Snaroff! Love the sound effects!

Thanks for the thoughtful reply!

The AS habitrail is incredibly efficient and has to deal with an aggressive turn and ball speed, that's why I thought it was an interesting comparison. If they weren't together in the lineup being played back-to-back, I'm not sure I would have compared the 2 in this regard.

My pleasure on the video...glad you like it! I should probably video the AS ramp for completeness so we can see in slo-motion how it works so flawlessly

snaroff

#36 11 months ago
Quoted from Marvin:

Drilling a new hole in the ramp and forcing it into another position is a hack regardless if Pat or Steven Hawking suggested it. They didn't change the ramp design in just your game it's the same as the rest that that quirk fine. You found a way to mask, rather than fix, the real issue. The only think you proved was you'd rather hack your game than fix it right. I feel sorry for whoever gets your game later.

You made your point. Move on.

-2
#37 11 months ago
Quoted from snaroff:

I have no plans to sell Dialed In, but I've sold many games over the years and have never had one unhappy customer. Not one. Some of the most critical players/collectors on both coasts have played my games and always comment on the beauty, condition, and gameplay.
Listen, the poll speaks for itself...46% of owners care about the wireform design issues. I'm not alone.
Is it practical to expect a DI wireform rework to avoid the issues I've outlined? Maybe not, but it doesn't hurt to point out that Stern designers figured out how to solve these problems. From my perspective, the plastic cage is a half-hearted, stop-gap solution.
At a minimum, I'm hopeful JJP will improve the wireform design in their next pinball!
snaroff

It shows 17% of the respondents no one knows if they are owners) are whiny, 29% will take anything free (these would generally never get installed), and 53% just play the game. None of these can be configured to own the game even. It also shows that less than 10% of game owners bothered to reply at all.

#38 11 months ago
Quoted from SilverBallz:

You made your point. Move on.

No, who the f are you to tell me what to do?

#39 11 months ago
Quoted from Marvin:

No, who the f are you to tell me what to do?

He's right. I refuse to get nasty with you, since last time the Pinside moderators stepped in.

I have respect for this forum. Now you need to show a little respect and move on. It's my post and your voice has been heard.

snaroff

#40 11 months ago

These polls are interesting and can be fun to look at but one should not draw any conclusions from them as they aren't even close to being statistically significant for a variety of reasons. (By the way, I'll always take free stuff for my games )

#41 11 months ago
Quoted from Oldgoat:

These polls are interesting and can be fun to look at but one should not draw any conclusions from them as they aren't even close to being statistically significant for a variety of reasons. (By the way, I'll always take free stuff for my games )

Correct, but the video demonstrates a common occurrence on MY machine. Every machine is unique. As I've stated several times, the bounce issue will only occur when the ball is traveling fast. I've played DI on location and this issue NEVER happens. Why? The DI on location plays considerably slower than my machine. I imagine a significant % of the "Don't care" fall into this category. If the flippers haven't been tuned, chances are they aren't operating at full strength.

I'm certain that other fast playing DI's will exhibit this problem. Based on some of the responses, it's clear that even when it occurs, some folks aren't bothered by it. Cool.

Nevertheless, I strive to tune my machines to perfection, so this issue bothers me (since it's difficult for me to fix). Waiting for the ball to bounce/return effects the otherwise awesome flow of this game.

snaroff

#42 11 months ago

I would be irritated by that, and I would be looking for a solution. Smooth shooting games deserve smooth functioning ramp exits. Marvin seems to be in "defender" mode, and refuses to see anything outside of this lens.

#43 11 months ago
Quoted from tamoore:

I would be irritated by that, and I would be looking for a solution. Smooth shooting games deserve smooth functioning ramp exits. Marvin seems to be in "defender" mode, and refuses to see anything outside of this lens.

Yep. Here is a video of the Aerosmith wireform in action. The ball behaves exactly as described in my original post. The tapered endpoint strikes the ball toward the top, pushing it into the hole, rather than back up the wireform! Here are the 2 links back-to-back for comparison.

Aerosmith: https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0dGKQPy6GO7UwH
DI: https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0dJsHvHoJ8Umaa

snaroff

#44 11 months ago
Quoted from Marvin:

No, who the f are you to tell me what to do?

someone who is speaking for everyone who sees how annoying and close-minded you are.

If the OP feels he has an issue, who are you to tell him he doesn't? He spent a lot of money on this game and he's entitled to have an option on how it should play. you are also entitled to your opinion and you shared it (numerous times) so move on! no one wants to read your nonsense anymore.

#45 11 months ago

My game is dialed and doesn't do these things. Maybe 1 in 100 shots will bounce back at the inlane and I find THAT annoying, never had the problem at the diverter. I'm w/ snaroff, this would annoy me and I would be obsessed with finding a way to get my Dialed In!, dialed in.
Good luck, JJP has been pretty awesome w/ some issues I had so hopefully you get these resolved.

#46 11 months ago
Quoted from mrofnoc:

My game is dialed and doesn't do these things. Maybe 1 in 100 shots will bounce back at the inlane and I find THAT annoying, never had the problem at the diverter. I'm w/ snaroff, this would annoy me and I would be obsessed with finding a way to get my Dialed In!, dialed in.
Good luck, JJP has been pretty awesome w/ some issues I had so hopefully you get these resolved.

Interesting. Yeah, 1 in 100 wouldn't annoy me. The ball bounces out 1 in 100 and it doesn't bother me at all. If it did, I'd order the plastic cover JJP developed.

I sent JJP links to the video and this post/poll yesterday. They know how much I love DI. If I didn't, I wouldn't be wasting my time on this!

I could certainly hire a metal worker with the appropriate tools to fix this, however I don't have the time/energy to go that far. I've contracted out wireform work when I restored my GNR, but that was a different context/issue. Don't know if you are aware, but GNR had 3 different wireform designs to deal with wonky shooter lane issues. No joke.

snaroff

#47 11 months ago
Quoted from snaroff:

He's right. I refuse to get nasty with you, since last time the Pinside moderators stepped in.
I have respect for this forum. Now you need to show a little respect and move on. It's my post and your voice has been heard.
snaroff

I'll move on when you do, when you find something you don't like and stop calling it a design flaw that need to be fixed.

#48 11 months ago
Quoted from tamoore:

I would be irritated by that, and I would be looking for a solution. Smooth shooting games deserve smooth functioning ramp exits. Marvin seems to be in "defender" mode, and refuses to see anything outside of this lens.

Not a defender at all. They need to finish the animations that they have said should be in the game. They should correct the production flaw (not design) of the trap door assembly. They need to install the wiring for crazy Bob sign correctly, and probably shift it but that's aesthetic s. Thing like this are easy fixes, but shouldn't get off the production floor in bunches as they have been. the game design is excellent. They do need a few adjustments in production though.
.

#49 11 months ago
Quoted from SilverBallz:

someone who is speaking for everyone who sees how annoying and close-minded you are.
If the OP feels he has an issue, who are you to tell him he doesn't? He spent a lot of money on this game and he's entitled to have an option on how it should play. you are also entitled to your opinion and you shared it (numerous times) so move on! no one wants to read your nonsense anymore.

He can be unhappy with it all he wants, that still does not make it a bad design that needs to be re-engineered and exchanged. I'm tired oh his whining and closed mindedness so he should just move in. Isn't this a discussion forum? It don't work that way.

#50 11 months ago

And it would be nice if we got the hard copy of the owner's manual that they promised as well.

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