But Joe you are in the business. You praise everything to the sky. Absolutely no problem with that. And I know you love the coin-op scene whether it's business or not. I think WOZ and Hobbit are great games. They tick all the boxes and although expensive are in my opinion value for money. Let's see if JJP move on price or give people the option to change to a standard machine. I would tell Jack what I think and how many he is likely to sell in UK/Europe at $11500.

I think a lot of the pricing negativity is based on everyone jacking up prices, not just JJP.

While I don't like the art or theme the game looks like it plays great. So major props to JJP for having a fully functioning great shooting game at a reveal. That's a huge step forward compared to TH and WOZ and that should make everyone happy. No more locking up your money for 3 years either. I think it's going to do really well. It's about 1K more then I could ever justify so I'll have to play it at shows or at friends houses if they get one.

...because we're the reason they survived the tough times and stayed in business, and now they've alienated us with ridiculous prices. Sorry, many of us are taking it a bit personally.

That's bad business, then. Games went up in value organically. Charging "flipper" prices out of the gate assumes everyone with a Tron LE would have paid flipper prices out of the gate, and that's not the case. 20 or so aftermarket sales do not reflect the NIB buyers market. I loved ACDC but didn't want to pay a flipper 10k for an LE, so I bought the Premium from Stern for $5800 shipped. If ACDC was only selling from Stern for $10k, I would NOT have an ACDC. Wasn't ACDC Prem one of Sterns best sellers ever? That is the backlash you're seeing right now. Only a small group are fine with paying scalpers. Now that the companies themselves have decided to be the scalpers, we're standing up and saying "No". Now who's leaving money on the table?

I agree with them too. I have read at least two people say Jack promised special loyalty pricing. That is enough for me to say it must be true. In this case Jack lost credibility and betrayed people's. Just another rich -n- greedy businessman that does not honor or back up statements. Greed is an ugly thing. I will not be buying based on that deception plus the price is wrong. I am a wealthy too...not a greedy wealthy though.

I enjoyed playing Dialed In, but I will never buy another NIB game from JJP again. I was one of the first people to order a WOZ, and was happy to support Jack's new company. Once he f**ked over all the LE buyers with the "Ruby Red" 75th Anniversary Edition, however, he lost me as a customer for life. The fact that he just did it again with the "Black Arrow" Hobbit shows that he did not even learn from his mistakes.

Yes the 20% VAT doesn't help and also with Stern I understand everything has to go via a sole UK importer in London. So Pinball Heaven ( exclusive UK JJP importer ) gets 10% put on Stern games because he can't buy direct.

So the US is still getting a much better deal than us. I do think there is a big opportunity for Heighway with kits at 60% of the game price. As well as space issues for many buyers.

I think you are looking at it wrong. Your LE had direct print, wood apron, etc and was likely $6500 if you got in early. The RR didn't have those things and was being sold for $9500 msrp. If anything Jack substantially raised the value of your game.

I'm very happy all these new choices exist and I'm very happy JJP continues to offer machines that have all these amazing features and aspects. I truly think it's great. Not trying to be a JJP fanboy or Stern detractor, but in terms of the overall experience of playing a pinball machine, WOZ and TH are incredible. I don't feel the same way about Stern games. Haven't played a Spooky or Heighway pin yet so no comment there.

I just wish JJP offered more readily available *less expensive options* available along with all of these stratospherically priced games. No - I'm not buying a Kiss or WWE Pro from Stern! Maybe Spooky and Heighway are my next options for NIB - dunno.

Dialed In looks like a great game. Game play looks fantastic. For me, in my opinion, the name completely sucks. Theme and cell phone toy doesn't bother me at all. I think the theme is great actually. I have a teenage daughter that would probably have a freakin' blast playing it with her friends, and watching all the selfies pop up on the screen. Just that alone will get kids to play it in arcade and redemption locations.

Nintendo WiiU has a feature like that where the player's face is shown on the main screen as part of a game replay - hilarious stuff happens! My kids and their friends would love that aspect of Dialed In. It may seem gimmicky to those of us on the older end of the age spectrum, but the I feel the direction to get a new generation interested is happening with JJP.

Congrats to JJP for the reveal! Can't wait to see how things ultimately pan out...

Is this real?!? I think you may have found a way to sell more games to guys with reluctant significant others. "BUT HONEY IT COMES WITH THIS CUTE PUPPY!" Seriously those designer puppies can cost you thousands as well.

No, I remember very clearly how things went down. When the Ruby Red LE's were announced, the original LE's dropped in value by at least $500 overnight. Even if that wasn't the case, it was still very bad form to create another (arguably better) version of the game after making people wait three years for their supposedly super special "LE's".

I don't feel f**ked over in the least by TH Black Arrow. Perfectly content with my THSE. The Black Arrow has different side art, different powder coat, black pinballs and flipper bats, and a unique attract mode. The unique attract mode on THSE is really cool, but I honestly only ever see it if I tap the flipper buttons to scroll through the screens prior to starting a game. And then when I do see it, it's about, what, 5 seconds and done?! Game play, features and everything that ultimately matters are the same, including the price. Can't fault a manufacturer for releasing new versions of a product to appeal to potential buyers.

And let's not kid ourselves - none of these new machines with hundreds of units built are limited.

Do you get pissed when you buy a car and the next year a new model comes out with different features?

Makes sense to me...

What do you feel is better about WOZRR versus WOZLE? Don't people go bananas over real wood aprons and direct print cabs?

I'm glad you don't, but you would be completely justified if you did.

I was surprised he did that. As you say it involved having big money tied up for years. Jack has been wonderful for pinball but I think we may be coming to the end of a honeymoon era.

Why? I honestly want your viewpoint on this.

I paid less for my THSE than the current MSRP for THBA. I have a pin which I love that will most likely stay with me for a very long time. Besides, it weighs so damn much I'll never be able to move it out of my basement!

Natural product life cycle in my opinion. Happens all the time to existing products that need a sales boost. Early adopters will almost always miss out on some new fangled version. Only recourse is to wait.

That said, I am truly sorry if you feel slighted/pissed/betrayed. WOZ is a great game. I wasn't in on WOZ and didn't have any knowledge of what actually went down with respect to those that initially ordered and what really transpired with the RR edition. So I apologize for jumping on you about it. I wasn't there and didn't have a horse in that race.

I happen to think the red trim looks better, and that the new topper is a lot nicer as well. Others may disagree, but the fact of the matter is that it's now more exclusive than the "LE". Part of the reason people lined up to pay extra for the LE in the first place is because they were sold on the idea that they were getting a limited, more collectible version of the game instead of the standard edition. I don't see how you can look at WOZRR as anything other than a slap in the face to the people whose money the company was built on.

See above.

Let me add FWIW that TH:LE is and will remain the biggest seller, Smaug Gold is limited only by the finite window of time it was available, the standard edition sold very very few AND although the Black Arrow Edition will be going into production once the last of the preorders are built, as of right now you could call and order ANY edition except Smaug. So the point I'm laboring to make is that Black Arrow is only cosmetically different and you could swap out the black pinballs, so since everyone likes the LE, IMHO they will end up selling far fewer BA's than whatever their target production number is anyway. Different from RR WOZ in that respect.

Agreed about the red trim and the topper. But I think from shear numbers, WOZLE is more limited than WOZRR. Can't prove that though... Isn't JJP still producing standards and RR's, or just standards? It'd be interesting to compare average *new* WOZLE sale price and average *used* WOZLE sale price to the same values for WOZRR. I think the delta between new and used WOZLE would be less than the delta for WOZRR, strictly because of the price to buy new. My neighbor has a WOZRR he bought NIB. Was not cheap.

Regardless, in terms of TH, it's the same game. only differences are art/colors. Heck, the rails and legs aren't even "hammered!" If JJP added an upper playfield or included some sort of functional difference (like a fan blowing hot air at you during the start of SmaugMB, or whatever) or some new playfield interactive toy, or a cool interactive topper, all for the same price, then yeah, I'd be disappointed. That's not what's happening in this case as of now. But again, I, as a consumer, expect product change over the life cycle.

Sorry for the Dialed In thread derail!

I feel your pain and I am not disagreeing or minimizing the hard feelings that followed the announcement of RR. Just one tiny fact -- RR editions are still being made today whilst the LEs were limited to 1000 and all were apron numbered. So once production ceases, the LE will be the rarer model (the standard may be even rarer but irrelevant). Don't know if that helps.

But remember, they almost went under twice, and had to be bailed out again.

So the price increases might not be just a "greedy money grab", the prices may have gone up simply because the cost of operating and maintaining a boutique pinball company was higher than initially projected.

Total disclosure - BTW - I hate the color of the rails and legs on my THSE. Much prefer the color on THLE.

Still can't buy a Dialed In FWIW - pin account is empty!!! Looking forward to seeing one first hand.

Still waiting for my puppy...

Mine arrived a month late. I opened the box and, well you know the rest

Stay tuned for the new "Puppy Replacement Program"

May I suggest everyone is getting a little carried away with the whole subject? Let's all pause for a breather and to reflect. Joe makes several excellent points. Consider: Lawlor, unlicensed theme, lots of innovation, etc. These are all great things! Exactly what we have been asking for! Ok, maybe Dialed In is not the best title for the game and possibly it is not everyone's favorite theme. But it still apparently is very cool!

I think the real issue everyone is having is price. Not that long ago, a super nice AF, TOM, AFM, etc could be found everywhere for $4k, which was and still is a lot of money for a pinball in this economy. But then B/W closed the doors and Sterns in general did not capture the glory of the best of B/W (in the opinion of many). But JJP came up with what might be the best and most innovative successful pinball in decades - namely WOZ. Unfortunately for many people, it started around $6k and rapidly increased. Worse still, it hasn't dropped much on the secondary market like in the old days, where a brand new AF would drop to $1500 within a few years. But WOZ was and still is a beautiful game, unequaled except for perhaps the very best of B/W greatest hits.

Then JJP followed with another excellent and innovative game - The Hobbit.... but at an even higher cost. Plus, as with WOZ, everyone wants the editions with all of the toys and gadgets, so it seems LE's etc are strongly preferred. These are even higher cost than the standard models. But before collectors get a chance to digest the unhappy fact that top end pins now cost anywhere between $6-8k, along comes JJP's latest, DI, with a starting price of $9k, and the "good" models going for up to $12.5k or maybe more! I think that's just too big of a pill for most people to swallow, regardless of how much you make or how much money you have in the bank!

Is the higher and higher cost worth it? I worked in manufacturing all my life. The cost of innovation and "toys" is high! Nobody gets something for nothing. And businesses, including JJP, have to make a large and attractive profit, or they go out of business, just like the pinball division of B/W.

So what do we do? Downgrade the features of pinballs being produced to make them more affordable? Then they won't be as much fun. Maybe we could can the idea of powder coating and invisiglass, which don't materially change game play. How much does that save? Maybe ask manufacturers to lower prices (and immediate profits) in the hopes of selling so many more machines that they make it up on volume? But what if they don't make sales numbers and profits tank? I don't know the answer. But I know that most collectors are necessarily out of the market when prices exceed $6 or $7k, unless the game is so monumental that people can justify a one time exception to their budget. And even then, that's only gonna happen once, no matter how great the next game is. Maybe if the secondary market prices were more realistic more people could get into the game at a later date, like the old days. But most sales in the old days were to operators, who could make back a significant portion of their initial outlay on the street, and then could afford to sell a game for less than they paid. But not many NIB home collectors are going to sell their games at a significant loss, having not recouped their costs like an operator would. The answer is out there. Somebody just has to find it!

Welcome to Pinside!

When you get a chance, please fill out your profile, so we can get to know a little more about you (e.g., where you're based, what games you have in your collection). You know, the usual info. Thanks.

Loyalty rewards...what a great idea! I'll take a "smaller bone" to throw us, like not raping us when we need a new part. I recently fried my MET CPU board and Stern wanted $500-$600 for a new board! They didn't have any new boards in stock and refurb boards were $400.

Fortunately, I have a local friend/collector who does great board work. $70 fixed it...almost all labor, part was exceptionally inexpensive.

snaroff

I think the problem everyone has on price is this:

2008 BDK NIB $4k (or maybe less)
2007 SM NIB $4k (or maybe less)

Those games are very similar to the Stern premiums of today, but yet the premiums are close to $3k more now. It's gone too far, especially on the BM66. They could be making those same games and charging the same amount they're charging for pro's today and still make a profit, inflation is very low right now. Look at SM VE, $6600 for the same game as 2007.

You look at JJP, and the quality is definitely better. But if you actually look at some of the things cost wise compared to Stern (cabinet same, electronics same, display same (LCD tv's are just as cheap as DMD's), plastics the same, playfield the same, etc). The only big cost difference comes in is with different armor, quality of the toys, and the extra programming of the display. Is that $4k different from a Stern pro? It doesn't seem like it. I think they're in some sort of chicken-egg scenario where they need to ramp up production to lower costs but they can't ramp up production too much because their games are too expensive for most people and they can't developed fast enough.

When prices start going up much faster than inflation, you can't blame the people for calling BS on it. I think people were just living with it until the BM66 thing just brought it to a head. I think Dialed In looks like a pretty good game, but 9k is something I'm not willing to spend no matter how great it is. People are willing to pay for better games, but at some point it's too much.

Puppy was ghosting?

I agree, but for me the silly prices are secondary to the products being less-than-great. I see almost almost no innovation. Stern finally moving to a color LCD isn't innovation. LCD or not, the level of dot investment isn't what it use to be. LOTR (over 12 years old) has the best dots of any Stern pin because they cared. The dots on KISS are a complete and utter joke.

They are shooting themselves in the foot...particularly with guys like us with fairly full/broad collections. For many collectors, there needs to be motivation to kick out a pin to make room for another.

Oh, I'm sure that's true. With all the delays, parts replacements, high game budgets, etc - JJP looks like a company that was bleeding money...so I'm sure they're just trying to make up for that - but a decision had to be made: Try to get as much as we can per game, or charge less and possibly sell MORE games? They've chosen the former. It's the same thing CGC did with MMr's color chip. Do we take the dough from the suckers now and piss them off, or give it away and reap the rewards later when we sell more MMr's and future titles?

I think JJP and Stern had been in that "healthy" zone with pricing...yes, it was higher than we wanted - but we still bought it because it felt like a fair relationship. They were making a product we wanted when no one else would. They've gone past that fair zone...and now are treating us like junkies. "Oh, you want this...well here's what it's gonna cost and you'll pay it cuz you WANT IT!!!!" ....but a lot of us are going "Yeah, nah...we like your products, but we're not addicts. We can live without it. Bye."

If JJP can sell these for 9k well more power to them. I won't pay 9k for a Monster Bash and that's a theme/game I love. It's not even about "affordability"......it's just too much for a pinball machine (IMHO). Maybe if my entire family was as pinball crazy as me I'd do it.....but they aren't and I just can't justify that kind of frivolous spending on a toy that's 95% just for me.

Some people don't care a lot about the theme; for others it's a big deal. I've discovered over the years that theme is very important to me.....at least if I plan on keeping the game. All the games I own I LOVE the theme.....others have come and gone. This one missis in the theme department for me so that's strike two. I'd love to see one of my friends buy one so I could play it tough

Joe is try to do his job and sell machines. He is putting out machines at the price Gary and Jack want him to so taking him to task is basically shooting the messenger.

I see the next year as a true test on the NIB pinball market. The Golden Rule does apply (he with the gold rules) and if there are truly a majority of collectors not willing to put down 9k on a machine, then the market will adjust and the fallout might be undesirable, but necessary.

If you don't want to pay 9k for Dialed in or BM66, then don't buy. Its as simple as that. The market will adjust with either lower prices or a contraction in terms of production. Its nothing new and has been going on for centuries.

We just don't want to see companies fail from their own greed. It's happened before.

No. I'm not happy 2 of these vendors choose to price their games like this. So no thanks to stern or jjp

It's not "shooting the messenger." As a distributor, Joe is a messenger between the manufacturer and his customers. That's the role he willingly accepted (and plays it well, I might add, with integrity), but the messages go both ways.

This is what I have been saying. Just because a few people pay out the ass to a flipper for a game doesn't mean everyone will or can pay that price. Im pretty sure Rare Hero can afford the astronomical prices for these games but he is smart by not doing so.

But they aren't saying no. A few are but most are screaming "take my money". This is why it will not stop. Hell, my poor ass wont be able to afford these games used.

I guess that would mean the 'ghosting' problem's bigger than GB

A few - but is limiting sales to "a few" good in the long run? That was my point about ACDC Premium - they sold thousands. Sure at these crazy high prices they'll bring in more profit per unit, but sell way less units. In the case of Batman, Stern is doing that on purpose. They only WANT to sell 320 mega expensive Batmans. I have to imagine JJP wants to sell more than a few hundred Dialed Ins.

Hobit owners would not be justified in feeling screwed. They had the benefit of seeing it happen to the WOZ owners. After seeing that, you had to expect another, "LE."

I pretty much agree. When it comes to JJP we just need to know that there really is no such thing as an LE. It's just a name given to one of what will probably turn into many versions of the pin.

Or as Razorbak86 said, JJP LE means Latest Edition.