(Topic ID: 202422)

Dialed In LE: Left ramp shot results in lost ball


By snaroff

1 year ago



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  • 57 posts
  • 11 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 1 year ago by snaroff
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There are 57 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
#1 1 year ago

Shooting the left ramp results in ball hopping over the open wireform directly below the diverter.

This happened to me twice today and I only played a handful of games. Seems like an obvious hole that needs plugging.

Running 1.5, stock settings, perfectly level.

Is anyone else seeing this? Curious.

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#2 1 year ago

Wheres your upper playfield? That may b a issue lol...

#3 1 year ago
Quoted from bigd1979:

Wheres your upper playfield? That may b a issue lol...

It's where you would expect. The 2nd photo of the ramp opening was from the internet (not my machine). I provided it simply to show the opening (since the photo of my machine didn't show it). REMOVED 2nd PHOTO TO AVOID CONFUSION.

#4 1 year ago
Quoted from snaroff:

It's where you would expect. The 2nd photo of the ramp opening was from the internet (not my machine). I provided it simply to show the opening (since the photo of my machine didn't show it).

O ok lol...

#5 1 year ago

Very strange issue tho.... never seen a ball fall back that way.

#6 1 year ago
Quoted from bigd1979:

Very strange issue tho.... never seen a ball fall back that way.

If the ball whips around the corner and has any "lift" and clips the diverter bottom, it could easily find it's way through the pretty massive gap in the wireform. I'd have to video it happening to confirm this. I can't believe this is only happening to me...

#7 1 year ago

The ramp switch under Betty's right hand might be cause of the "hop". Bend the blade of the switch so it hits at the _center_ of the ball, not the lower half.

All of the ramp switches on my DILE needed this adjustment.

#8 1 year ago

is the ball clipping the bottom of the diverter (as you say) while the diverter is in motion, or when it's in it's rested 'up' position? if it's when it's rested, you'll have to adjust the set screw at the bottom of the mechanism to prevent that from happening.

#9 1 year ago
Quoted from JWJr:

The ramp switch under Betty's right hand might be cause of the "hop". Bend the blade of the switch so it hits at the center_ of the ball, not the lower half.
All of the ramp switches on my DILE needed this adjustment.

Great point. My switch is currently very low. Makes sense that it would cause the "hop"...

Quoted from bigehrl:

is the ball clipping the bottom of the diverter (as you say) while the diverter is in motion, or when it's in it's rested 'up' position? if it's when it's rested, you'll have to adjust the set screw at the bottom of the mechanism to prevent that from happening.

Very hard to tell, since I don't have it on video. If the switch adjustment doesn't fix it, I'll try and capture in on video and analyze the video to see how to approach fixing it.

Thanks very much for the feedback! Very helpful. Sounds like this isn't biting too many folks, or I would have received more responses...

snaroff

#11 1 year ago

Looking at it frame by frame, it looks like the ball is actually fouling on the _lower_ side of the ramp, and then bouncing up into Betty's arm (and possibly under that arm and out). I'd suspect the switch.

#12 1 year ago

Correct. Here are 8 frames showing it hits the right lower corner, then bounces to the right upper corner directly across, then bounces to the left upper corner and then settles down to continue. Even though this ball didn't fall overboard, it's easy to see how this would make it happen.

I don't understand how to adjust the switch given it's orientation. I've adjusted switches like this, however never in this position.

fyi...photos are in reverse order. Start at the bottom...

snaroff

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#13 1 year ago

OK, the switch blade from the top down looks roughly like this (ignore all the dots):

. |------- /
........... \/

Grab it with two pair of needle nose pliers at these points:

....... v v
. |------- /
........... \/

Twist the right-hand pair toward the back of the machine, so that the point of the "V" of the switch blade is higher up - farther away from the wire of the ramp. The idea is to have the blade contact the _vertical center_ of the ball. (I also opened up the "V" a little on mine, so that the end of the blade makes contact with the ball longer as it passes; I was getting some "whiffs" on too-clean shots).

Please use two pair of pliers, to avoid putting any strain on the little plastic nubs on the switch body that hold the blade in place - if you shear one off, you'll be mad at me.

#14 1 year ago
Quoted from JWJr:

Please use two pair of pliers, to avoid putting any strain on the little plastic nubs on the switch body that hold the blade in place - if you shear one off, you'll be mad at me.

I managed to capture it in slow motion and the ball appears to be off center (and heading toward the collision with the ramp edge) BEFORE it hits the switch.

https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0d5BydzFUsA0b

It's really easy to damage that type of switch...particularly with the side orientation. Until JJP tells me tweaking the switch is the solution, I'm going to be conservative and not fiddle with it. Nevertheless, I really appreciate your help.

Since this issue isn't being discussed widely, there must be something about MY pin that is unique. This would get a lot of attention if it were happening to all the examples...it's very frustrating.

snaroff

#15 1 year ago

Wow - that ball's getting air in the transition.

It struck me that _all_ of the ramp switches seemed to be mounted lower (relative to position of the ball as it passes) than I would have expected. Perhaps some combination of a spacer below the switch body and/or bending the bracket under the switch body down a bit (to angle the switch blade upwards) might improve performance.

#16 1 year ago
Quoted from JWJr:

Wow - that ball's getting air in the transition.
It struck me that all_ of the ramp switches seemed to be mounted lower (relative to position of the ball as it passes) than I would have expected. Perhaps some combination of a spacer below the switch body and/or bending the bracket under the switch body down a bit (to angle the switch blade upwards) might improve performance.

Yeah, after studying the video, i don't believe the switch is contributing much to this issue. The issue shown in the video happens pretty often. The ball falling off the wire form (behind Betty) happens less often, but you can see how this would cause it. In fact, the diverter hanging low appears to help the ball remain on the wire form in the slow motion video.

From my perspective, the wire form design is flawed. It should have a guard rail on both sides of the wire form starting from the plastic ramp -> the diverter opening. If no one else is having my problem, it is hard to claim it's a design issue (hence, "From my perspective"

I'm hoping JJP will help me soon. I LOVE this game (and I've owned a bunch and having to take the glass off every day to retrieve the ball behind Betty is a real BUMMER!!

snaroff

#17 1 year ago

Your game is missing a piece. There is a plastic on Betty's torso that prevents the ball from falling off the back of the ramp.

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#18 1 year ago
Quoted from check_switch_26:

Your game is missing a piece. There is a plastic on Betty's torso that prevents the ball from fall back off the ramp.

Always the simplest thing.

#19 1 year ago
Quoted from TheLaw:

Always the simplest thing.

Wow. While that's cool, it doesn't fix the root cause issue (which is happening a lot).

If you look at the SLOW MOTION video I posted, the ball shouldn't "stop and bounce around" because it is off the rails.

The plastic above will definitely help avoid the ball falling off the ramp entirely (and behind Betty), but it's still a bummer the ball is essentially getting thrown off the rail and getting caught.

snaroff

#20 1 year ago
Quoted from snaroff:

Yeah, after studying the video, i don't believe the switch is contributing much to this issue. The issue shown in the video happens pretty often. The ball falling off the wire form (behind Betty) happens less often, but you can see how this would cause it. In fact, the diverter hanging low appears to help the ball remain on the wire form in the slow motion video.
From my perspective, the wire form design is flawed. It should have a guard rail on both sides of the wire form starting from the plastic ramp -> the diverter opening. If no one else is having my problem, it is hard to claim it's a design issue (hence, "From my perspective"
I'm hoping JJP will help me soon. I LOVE this game (and I've owned a bunch and having to take the glass off every day to retrieve the ball behind Betty is a real BUMMER!!
snaroff

Your slow mo shows that it is clearly the switch. Don't play the video, manually drag the video to play or even slower. As the ball enters the wire dorm from the plastic ramp the ball is riding the bottom rails correctly. After passing the low positioned switch it is forced to ride on the single front rail. It then contracts the front upper guard at the corner. You can compare the ball position to the rails before the switch, after the switch, and after the impact. Before the such and after the impact both have the ball riding both rails. As soon as the such is contacted the ball is pushed forward. Bend/shim switch to higher position. The switch is also likely dragging and slightly binding allowing the ball to raise more and the such too move out of the way less easily

#21 1 year ago
Quoted from snaroff:

JJP is studying the video...
snaroff

Ah gotcha.

The funny thing is with the glass off mine once I threw a ball back in that corner by accident. For the goddamn life of me I could NOT get it out from under Betty's arm/the open area with a magnet. Tried for over 10 minutes and finally left in threre fora week or so till I could tilt the PF. So yeah that's a weird one.

#22 1 year ago
Quoted from Marvin:

Your slow mo shows that it is clearly the switch. Don't play the video, manually drag the video to play or even slower. As the ball enters the wire dorm from the plastic ramp the ball is riding the bottom rails correctly. After passing the low positioned switch it is forced to ride on the single front rail. It then contracts the front upper guard at the corner. You can compare the ball position to the rails before the switch, after the switch, and after the impact. Before the such and after the impact both have the ball riding both rails. As soon as the such is contacted the ball is pushed forward. Bend/shim switch to higher position. The switch is also likely dragging and slightly binding allowing the ball to raise more and the such too move out of the way less easily

I've studied it very closely (since I labored over it Sorry, but it's not the switch. JJP support concurs (the switch is highly unlikely to be causing this).

Here is the frame where the ball "lands" on the inside wire after being airborne after rounding the turn. At this point, it hasn't touched or triggered the switch.

snaroff

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#23 1 year ago
Quoted from TheLaw:

Ah gotcha.
The funny thing is with the glass off mine once I threw a ball back in that corner by accident. For the goddamn life of me I could NOT get it out from under Betty's arm/the open area with a magnet. Tried for over 10 minutes and finally left in threre fora week or so till I could tilt the PF. So yeah that's a weird one.

Yep, it's happened 4 times over 30-40 games? (Where the ball is lost behind Betty).

The stoppage in the videos I posted happens much more. The stoppage is annoying, since the ball essentially stops dead in it's tracks, however it's far less annoying that having to take the glass off and rescue the ball behind Betty!

LOVE, LOVE this game. Can't wait until a fix is discovered. I'm weirded out that I'm the only one effected by this. Would think other folks would be experiencing the stoppage in the video...

snaroff

#24 1 year ago
Quoted from snaroff:

I'm weirded out that I'm the only one whining about this. Would think other folks would be experiencing the stoppage in the video...

Yeah I have not seen that on mine at all...you got some specialized weirdness on yours.

Hopefully they just shotgun out the ramp & wireform with new parts. I guess all it takes is a small defect in the ramp or something around there to make it hop just a tad. Unless that switch comes off easy and you could remove it to test that aspect. (I'm guessing not)

#25 1 year ago

3 things.
1. You are missing the anti-trap steel ( with the gas pump decal ) that was posted earlier.
Having that piece in place will stop lost balls by Betty the quantum mechanic.
2. It is possible the switch is hitting the mounting nut directly behind it on hard shots. Your video supports this theory in slow mo. This causes the switch to "jam" on the nut and the ball to hop away. If this is the case simply bend the end of the switch blade out towards the player slightly.
3. Its possible the intersection between the ramp exit and the wireform is off slightly. See if the top guard rail of the wireform is protruding into the exit space of the ramp. ( not a smooth wall transition ). If not, the guard rail of the wireform can be bent back slightly ( away from the player ) with a pliers.
Good luck.

#26 1 year ago
Quoted from patl:

3 things.
1. You are missing the anti-trap steel ( with the gas pump decal ) that was posted earlier.
Having that piece in place will stop lost balls by Betty the quantum mechanic.
2. It is possible the switch is hitting the mounting nut directly behind it on hard shots. Your video supports this theory in slow mo. This causes the switch to "jam" on the nut and the ball to hop away. If this is the case simply bend the end of the switch blade out towards the player slightly.
3. Its possible the intersection between the ramp exit and the wireform is off slightly. See if the top guard rail of the wireform is protruding into the exit space of the ramp. ( not a smooth wall transition ). If not, the guard rail of the wireform can be bent back slightly ( away from the player ) with a pliers.
Good luck.

Pat, thanks so much for "weighing in" on my issue. Will start experimenting and report back.

Kudos to you, Ted, and the rest of the team for crafting such an awesome game.

My first JJP pin! (and I believe the finest game to be done in a very long time).

snaroff

-1
#27 1 year ago
Quoted from patl:

3. Its possible the intersection between the ramp exit and the wireform is off slightly. See if the top guard rail of the wireform is protruding into the exit space of the ramp. ( not a smooth wall transition ). If not, the guard rail of the wireform can be bent back slightly ( away from the player ) with a pliers.
Good luck.

On #3, it appears the main screw at the ramp/rail transition was very loose (before/after photos). Didn't seem to have a huge impact, but when the ball whacks against the ramp, I imagine a loose screw could alter the ball path? What do you think?

Please lmk if you think the ramp/rail transition is smooth. Hard for me to tell, since I haven't inspected any other examples...

snaroff

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#28 1 year ago

This is why i love pinside/jjp..... the designer of the game and coder of the game chiming in to help someone. Don't get much better than this.......thank all involed in such a great game.

#29 1 year ago
Quoted from snaroff:

Yeah, after studying the video, i don't believe the switch is contributing much to this issue. The issue shown in the video happens pretty often. The ball falling off the wire form (behind Betty) happens less often, but you can see how this would cause it. In fact, the diverter hanging low appears to help the ball remain on the wire form in the slow motion video.
From my perspective, the wire form design is flawed. It should have a guard rail on both sides of the wire form starting from the plastic ramp -> the diverter opening. If no one else is having my problem, it is hard to claim it's a design issue (hence, "From my perspective"
I'm hoping JJP will help me soon. I LOVE this game (and I've owned a bunch and having to take the glass off every day to retrieve the ball behind Betty is a real BUMMER!!
snaroff

Your slow mo shows that it is clearly the switch. Don't play the video, manually drag the video to play or even slower. As the ball enters the wire dorm from the plastic ramp the ball is riding the bottom rails correctly. After passing the low positioned switch it is forced to ride on the single front rail. It then contracts the front upper guard at the corner. You can compare the ball position to the rails before the switch, after the switch, and after the impact. Before the such and after the impact both have the ball riding both rails. As soon as the such is contacted the ball is pushed forward. Bend/shim switch to higher position. The switch is also likely dragging and slightly binding allowing the ball to raise more and the such too move out of the way less easily

Quoted from snaroff:

I've studied it very closely (since I labored over it Sorry, but it's not the switch. JJP support concurs (the switch is highly unlikely to be causing this).
Here is the frame where the ball "lands" on the inside wire after being airborne after rounding the turn. At this point, it hasn't touched or triggered the switch.
snaroff

Compare the amount of front rail seen in that shot, with a still from after the impact. Same amount of rail showing under the ball. Check the frames after the one you posted and before impact. The rail visible is different. It is the switch. It's too low, as everyone's are, yours is just behaving worse.

#30 1 year ago

Stupid mobile editing dupe.

#31 1 year ago

Easy test, unscrew swich from the bracket, put it aside taking care to avoid shorting anything. Test ramp shot. Does it still crash into the front at the turn? Report back with result.

#32 1 year ago

This reminds me of TAF, where the ball would derail off the cross-playfield wireform when the transition between the end of the plastic ramp and the rails wasn't perfect. I don't think any switch would provide enough force to knock the ball off the rails here... really looks like it's rattling a bit as it comes off the plastic ramp into the wireform channel. Did tightening that screw change anything? Perhaps the ball is hitting the back rail (high rail towards back of game) as it exits the ramp and rattling rather than dropping in the channel cleanly...

#33 1 year ago
Quoted from Marvin:

Your slow mo shows that it is clearly the switch. Don't play the video, manually drag the video to play or even slower. As the ball enters the wire dorm from the plastic ramp the ball is riding the bottom rails correctly. After passing the low positioned switch it is forced to ride on the single front rail. It then contracts the front upper guard at the corner. You can compare the ball position to the rails before the switch, after the switch, and after the impact. Before the such and after the impact both have the ball riding both rails. As soon as the such is contacted the ball is pushed forward. Bend/shim switch to higher position. The switch is also likely dragging and slightly binding allowing the ball to raise more and the such too move out of the way less easily

Compare the amount of front rail seen in that shot, with a still from after the impact. Same amount of rail showing under the ball. Check the frames after the one you posted and before impact. The rail visible is different. It is the switch. It's too low, as everyone's are, yours is just behaving worse.

Thanks for you insights, Marvin. Can you post a photo of your switch? (near Betty's right hand).

Another option is to raise the entire switch, but that's a bit more involved.

snaroff

#34 1 year ago
Quoted from metallik:

Did tightening that screw change anything? Perhaps the ball is hitting the back rail (high rail towards back of game) as it exits the ramp and rattling rather than dropping in the channel cleanly...

Doesn't appear that tightening the screw changed anything.

I also made a very minor adjustment to the switch to avoid hitting the nut behind it (per Pat's #2 suggestion).

The Betty ball hangup at the diverter edges is still happening. As Marvin points out, the switch hangs VERY LOW. I believe it's touching the wireform and slowing the ball when/if it's not impeding the ball. 90% of the time it flies by with no problem.

I'll try adjusting the switch as has been suggested, but I need to get another needle nose...don't have all my tools at this location. These switches are very delicate when moved tweaked improperly.

snaroff

#35 1 year ago
Quoted from snaroff:

Doesn't appear that tightening the screw changed anything.
I also made a very minor adjustment to the switch to avoid hitting the nut behind it (per Pat's #2 suggestion).
The Betty ball hangup at the diverter edges is still happening. As Marvin points out, the switch hangs VERY LOW. I believe it's touching the wireform and slowing the ball when/if it's not impeding the ball. 90% of the time it flies by with no problem.
I'll try adjusting the switch as has been suggested, but I need to get another needle nose...don't have all my tools at this location. These switches are very delicate when moved tweaked improperly.
snaroff

Before your adjust the switch blade just remove the switch temporally first. If the problem ceases, you know it's the switch, if it continues then you need to look elsewhere. It's just two screws that hold it in place.

#36 1 year ago
Quoted from Marvin:

Before your adjust the switch blade just remove the switch temporally first. If the problem ceases, you know it's the switch, if it continues then you need to look elsewhere. It's just two screws that hold it in place.

Hi Marvin,

As you suggested, I removed the switch (great suggestion, btw). I added a 2-second slo-motion video to the album below. If you download it and step through, you can see what I was describing in an earlier post. The ball is airborne when it leaves the ramp. When it "lands" on the edge of the wireform, the landing location is almost precisely where the switch was previously located. Since the switch isn't there to alter it's progress, the ball slams into the plastic/rubber on the upper PF and knocks it back on the wireform. If the switch were there, it's unclear if it would have fired properly (since a clean activation depends on the ball being on the center of the wireform, which isn't the case). Do you concur and see what I'm seeing?

https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0d5BydzFUsA0b

At this point, I need JJP/Pat to advise my next steps. From my perspective, simply tweaking the switch isn't going to solve this problem.

From my "layman" perspective, I believe there are 2 design issues to protect against strong hits where the ball is airborne during the ramp/wireform transition:

- the wireform should have a guard rail on the inside (leading up to the Betty diverter).
- the wireform entry switch, if necessary, should be further from the ramp/wireform transition (ideally, right before entering the Betty diverter).

Caveat I design software for a living, not pinball machines. Nevertheless, I've owned many machines and have worked/restored on a fair number.

Pat's opinion is obviously all that matters here, but since my machine is unhappy, I can't help but comment on what might solve my problem. I love this game and want to play it without unnatural ball activity...

snaroff

#37 1 year ago

That behavior is very different than before. The such was clearly causing "some" issue. My first impression, switch is pushing the ball right, causing it to crash into the corner. It's also slowing the ball just enough to keep it from bouncing up into the upper pf rubber. If still put money on shimming the such higher up, the whole body, not just bending the actuator. Contacting higher on the ball will result in led chance of it getting raised into the right rail. It will also slow the ball slightly, keeping it from bashing the rubber. If you manually close the such you'll hear it click. I'd adjust the switch blade, not twisting it, to make the stick click closed as late as possible when a ball goes by. Basically making it stick into the ball path less, but this world be done in concert with moving the switch up.

#38 1 year ago
Quoted from Marvin:

That behavior is very different than before. The such was clearly causing "some" issue. My first impression, switch is pushing the ball right, causing it to crash into the corner. It's also slowing the ball just enough to keep it from bouncing up into the upper pf rubber. If still put money on shimming the such higher up, the whole body, not just bending the actuator. Contacting higher on the ball will result in led chance of it getting raised into the right rail. It will also slow the ball slightly, keeping it from bashing the rubber. If you manually close the such you'll hear it click. I'd adjust the switch blade, not twisting it, to make the stick click closed as late as possible when a ball goes by. Basically making it stick into the ball path less, but this world be done in concert with moving the switch up.

I guess I see it differently. The common behavior between the 2 videos is the ball is airborne when it leaves the ramp and is off the rail for a considerable distance (~2.5"). When the switch is installed, it alters the ball in one direction. When the switch is removed, the ball continues until slamming into the upper PF.

As I said above, you and I can speculate all day long. At this point, Pat will need to guide me on solving this issue. It appears this issue is unique to my machine, however that's hard to prove. If the ramp & wireform don't have multiple revisions, you'd think the behavior would be more deterministic, but this is pinball and these machines have a soul of their own...

Thanks for your help & responsiveness!

snaroff

#39 1 year ago
Quoted from snaroff:

Hi Marvin,
As you suggested, I removed the switch (great suggestion, btw).

Yep your welcome

#40 1 year ago

Found a part in my desk that I'm amazed fits fairly well to raise the entire switch. The switch now clears the locknut entirely.

One of the screws doesn't want to catch, but that's a detail that will hopefully be resolved with a little fiddling. The screws appear to have just enough "play" in them to accommodate my adhoc part.

I'm not convinced this is a complete solution, but will hopefully improve the situation and allow me put the machine back together!

snaroff

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#41 1 year ago

When I put the switch back, I decided to do a simple test to do a sanity check (even though no wires were ever disturbed).

When I did this, I realized the switches seem reversed (assuming the test matrix is labeled correctly). When I trigger the switch before the Betty diverter, switch #46 lights up. When I trigger the switch after the Betty diverter, switch #62 lights up.

Video to verify...

https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0d5BydzFUsA0b

snaroff

#42 1 year ago
Quoted from snaroff:

When I put the switch back, I decided to do a simple test to verify. When I did this, I realized the switches seem reversed (assuming the test matrix is labeled correctly). When I trigger the switch before the Betty diverter, switch #46 lights up. When I trigger the switch after the Betty diverter, switch #62 lights up.
Video to verify...
https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0d5BydzFUsA0b
snaroff

On my machine, the green and white pairs from both of those switches (along with a green and white pair from the "Statue Diverter Down" switch) all meet (and are bundled) together, with _identical_ connectors. Find the one going to the Diverter switch, and then swap the other two.

#43 1 year ago

Unfortunately, raising the switch didn't reduce or fix the problem shown in the video. Actually seems to be worse after raising it.

Bummer.

I'm out of ideas.

#44 1 year ago

BINGO!! Moving the ramp ~1/4" closer to the wireform seems to have fixed it (see https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0d5BydzFUsA0b for details). No need to bend the wireform

The ramp/wireform feels 100% better/smoother/faster. I think all the shots were suffering as a result of the poorly aligned ramp/wireform!

SO HAPPY to make some progress on this! I'll test some more, but it looks very promising...

Thanks to Pat, Ted for their help!

PS: Curious if the original ramp hole (shown below) was drilled incorrectly or the ramp post location on the PF changed (or can be adjusted). Will tee this up with JJP support.

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#45 1 year ago

A JJP engineer didn't discover yesterday that you were missing the protector sign, you were told that repeatedly here for a week!

#46 1 year ago
Quoted from Marvin:

A JJP engineer didn't discover yesterday that you were missing the protector sign, you were told that repeatedly here for a week!

False. I was told I was missing the transparent upper PF plastic (which had nothing to do with the discussion/issue, so I removed the distracting photo).

There was no mention of the "Betty protector" until yesterday (by Ted above). I searched through this thread and couldn't find any previous reference (and why would Ted mention it otherwise?). I was responding to each post quickly and trying various approaches to localize the problem.

The root cause of my persistent problems was the incorrect ramp installation, not the lack of a "Betty protector". Considering how closely you followed the thread, I'm surprised this isn't clearer...

Now that the ramp/wireform are connected properly, the ball stays on the wireform with no deviation whatsoever. I still plan on installing the protector when it shows up, but I'm much more jazzed about the ramp/wireform working properly. The videos tell the story...

Thanks again for your contributions to the thread...

snaroff

#47 1 year ago

This thread is so confusing.

#48 1 year ago
Quoted from snaroff:

The root cause of my persistent problems was the incorrect ramp installation, not the lack of a "Betty protector". Considering how closely you followed the thread, I'm surprised this isn't clearer...

Yep, same issue as TAF. There has to be a smooth transition from the plastic wall to metal rail, otherwise fast-moving balls are doomed. Could be your plastic ramp was slightly deformed and pulling it closer to the wireform helped mitigate the issue. Glad you're up and running!

#49 1 year ago

I was having a similar issue after installing my protectors and fixed it by adjusting the wireform. It was hanging low on the screw so I pushed it all the way up and tightened. 3EE04B90-AD84-4EB2-99BF-3ABFA9C318AB (resized).jpeg

Like butter again.

#50 1 year ago
Quoted from metallik:

Yep, same issue as TAF. There has to be a smooth transition from the plastic wall to metal rail, otherwise fast-moving balls are doomed. Could be your plastic ramp was slightly deformed and pulling it closer to the wireform helped mitigate the issue. Glad you're up and running!

Thanks! Never owned TAF, or else I might have figured it out more quickly. The before/after difference is really quite stunning...the ball sails through perfectly every time. Like butta. Will install the missing protector as a safeguard, but haven't had 1 airborne or lost ball since making this tweak.

Quoted from TheLaw:

This thread is so confusing.

Sorry you were confused. Unless you are experiencing this problem, I guess it doesn't really matter. If you are experiencing the problem, I'm happy to work with you offline to explain the problem/solution.

As a review, here are the 4 issues that were corrected with my example: Pat suggested moving the ramp closer to the wireform to achieve a smooth transition (the primary, and most important fix). Ted suggested getting the missing Betty plastic to safeguard lost balls. Several folks suggested bending or raising the 2 wireform switches (I ended up raising the entire switch with a homebrew mechanism that worked great). Lastly, I reversed the pre/post diverter switches, which were apparently wired incorrectly at the factory (I noticed this after testing the raised switch using the diagnostics).

Diagnosing bugs like this takes some trial/error/analysis. If the solution were plainly obvious, it would be less confusing. Pat and Ted were very helpful and they weren't confused, which is really all that matters (since they know more about this machine than us

Quoted from Ed209:

I was having a similar issue after installing my protectors and fixed it by adjusting the wireform. It was hanging low on the screw so I pushed it all the way up and tightened.
Like butter again.

Nice. Love that "like butter" feel. This game shoots so sweet when it is tweaked to perfection!

snaroff

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