Ah, the IFPA let's you register side tourneys for IFPA points. It's a great way to get newer players to the four entries quicker. Consider doing that in the future events you host. We always to include one side tourney with each main tourney (I think you are allowed to have up to three).

Seems kind of quiet anymore. Any word if they are coming out with the scoop protectors?

We should be doing this as well. I'll talk to the others who run the league with me and start making happen.

Soonish. I was told scoop protectors might be available next week.

They're definitely doing the SIM card one. I haven't heard if they're doing the phone slot one. Production was started on them a few weeks ago. Should be here any day.

Both scoops are getting metal protectors.

Any idea if we have to contact JJP or will they automatically mail them to the address you registered the game under?

Probably have to ask. The dist is sending the one for the Dialed In here.

Open a trouble ticket on the website to get in line for the protectors.

You have to be put on a list. If you don't put a ticket in, you will not get a cliffy...

Looks like I need to submit a ticket.

If you're on the list, you still won't get a cliffy. You'll get a knockoff. I'm glad JJP is making this, but I think it's really bad form that they're ripping off Cliff's product instead of using his brand to further help theirs by saying "featuring official cliffy protectors" or something and giving him some small royalty or license fee. That Stern ripped him off, no surprise. JJP, surprised.

I know for a fact that Cliff is down for that because I suggested it to him and he already said they were just going to rip him off instead.

Looks like standards are shipping. Any good pics of the ramp, theatre, or city acrylic?

IMG_0800 (resized).JPG

Standard is absolutely fine. I don't even notice the ramp, or the theater plastic and to me the city acrylic looks better on the standard because it has some color unlike the laser etched piece.

Just my personal opinion, but the phrase "rip him off" seems a bit harsh unless they had a relationship of some kind with him before. They may have copied his fine product, but that is different from ripping someone off. Also, unless Cliff has some kind of patent (which maybe he does, I do not know) what would they license? (While I typed that I realized they could license the title "Cliffy", so it is possible).

It's a knockoff of something he innovated way before anyone else. JJP (well, and Stern, too, but let's be real) could license his product name and use that to promote as a bullet point feature of their games to further cement their reputation as top quality builds instead of just ripping off the work he innovated years before they were even making pins. The most hurtful part to Cliff is that Pat Lawlor is said to have designed the knockoff part himself. Not cool, and unexpected from JJP.

Pat Lawlor designed the metal protector that DI will be using, specifically to avoid the issues that Cliffys have, namely shrinking the size of the hole opening. All due credit to Cliffy but his products are not ground breaking achievements in technology. If they were they would be patented.

Anyone remember one of JJP's presentations where the question was asked: "will your machines need any Cliffy protectors" and the reply was: " we love ya, Cliffy, but our machines won't need any of your protectors".
Looks like that was a carefully crafted answer.....

Good look playing that standard edition - it doesn't come with the coveted comic book!

I own the LE and have played the standard - very little difference. I think I prefer the cityscape in the standard edition, too, and I love stainless armor. If I were to buy again, I would likely get the standard edition.

No invisiglass with the standard. I like the powder coating look on his face. Does the standard come with a shaker?

The lighted ramps are pretty cool too.

I went stainless on my mmrle as I do like the look on that game, but DI looks great with the blue pc.

What does the back area on the standard look like? Does it have the acrylic city scape or is it different than the le?

Yes, Standard edition includes a shaker.

This is what the Standard edition's cityscape looks like:

60eaf29dbe7678a84271a14d714726d04aab3036.jpg

It might be cool to get one of the standard edition plastic cityscapes and mount it behind the LE version's laser-etched version.

So the vertical surfaces of the wood hole won't be protected? Great.

And his product WAS ground breaking because NO ONE was doing it before he made the first one. Low tech? Yes. But that doesn't make it any less innovative.

It's a bent piece of metal. I mean, come on, it's not "innovative".

And anyway, the Mantis protectors are better because they don't effect the ball.

Well, NO ONE did it before him, and blown out holes were a problem for a long time. That is the definition of innovation. Seeing a solution where no one else has. He did that. You can debate your favorite knockoff and its relative benefits/drawbacks to a cliffy, but they're ALL knockoffs of an idea no one else had first. Whether or not you want to admit it, he deserves the credit for the idea.

For the scoop protectors, Cliffy should have been approached first to see if he was interested in a partnership. I agree with that fully.

And the stupid part is if JJP was using Cliffy's brand, that only solidifies their position as the premium pinball manufacturer AND they can design the holes from day ONE with protection in mind so banding them inside and out won't reduce the size of the holes in the playfield, even by a fraction. I don't think Cliff is trying to bend anyone over. If I was him, I'd be put out about my innovation being co-opted, too.

Could Cliffy pump them out quick enough?

I realize you're a fanboy of Cliffy and that's fine, but the fact that they are not and cannot be patented should tell you whether they are an innovation. It's a bent piece of aluminum. That's it. Not even high quality. Not particularly expensive to make (his margins are enormous on these). Just because you think of something first doesn't make it innovative.

I don't think there is any value to saying the new pinball machine you just mfgd has a Cliffy protector vs. other protector designed by Pat Lawlor and made of the same material. Few care. It protects the playfield. It's not a premium product. Since Cliffys shrink the hole size in most applications, I'd actually be more curious to see an alternative than demand that a Cliffy-brand be used.

That's an LE. The very first 10 production games built were LEs.

Doubt it, not for Stern and JJP. They are better off just making their own. I think they are both moving to manufacture more and more parts in house anyway.

Yeah I mean I love Cliffy & his products too no doubt, but this seems like something they weren't planning and get done quick.

I thought I'd read every post in this thread, but I seemed to have missed something. Did someone say that there's something definitive blocking Cliffy's ability to patent his steel hole protectors? Or was it just someone's "expert analysis"? I'm truly curious, because I can't see how he couldn't patent it, given he can show proper design paperwork dating farther back than anybody else's pinball hole protectors(which is one of the ways you can establish your patent's date of origin, or challenge someone else's patent if it infringes on yours).

Yeah, it kinds does. If you've ever taken any kind of business courses, you know that the term "First to Market" is of massive importance in many ways. If it's a product that never existed beforehand, is well made, and helps solve a common problem, I'd 100% call it innovative. Just the fact that we're calling them by the name of the guy that makes them, kinda proves my point.

All the Cliffys I've seen and used are so thin that they really should have no effect on the ball going into whatever scoop they're mounted in. If they do, you probably haven't installed them properly. I have had zero issue with the Cliffys on my games.

I wouldn't call myself a Cliffy fanboy, but credit where credit's due.

I have Cliffy's on most of my games with scoops. They do make the shot in the hole noticeably tougher (whether it is from thickness or just the change in material on the surface I do not know). That's not necessarily a bad thing. I want my shot into the scoop on TAF to be as hard as possible...so this is a feature in my eyes for TAF.

Fat or tapered sleeve posts will help that believe you me!

For me it's game to game on cliffys. My broithers JP was harder to hit after. My TZ doesn't really affect it as far as I can tell but whom really knows.

He could, he hasn't to my knowledge, and it hasn't been declined. So, yeah, it's possible. Seems like it could be successful, but it would cost a fair amount of money to find out.

Jumping to conclusions?

Thinking of it, then acting on it, then manufacturing it, and having numerous people (NONE of whom had anything close before) rip it off in various ways, large and small is a pretty good clue that it was/is in innovation. Look up the definition.

The only two I've ever had affect the ball was on KISS, because the stock hole is abnormally, abusively small stock with nothing, and Batman'66 because I think the holes are just a smidge different than BDK and it makes the Cliffy not lay completely flat.

Other than those two, they're always fine.

Amen.

I can't believe we are talking about licensing a Cliffy protector.

I've had to remove Cliffy from Indy 500 and RS because of rejects.

Scoops need protection but it just isn't rocket science or proprietary by any stretch!

For people who love metal, i hope Cliffy sells the crap out of it. But there is no monopoly on it.

That's interesting, because on my TAF, it made it easier. Before, the ball could hit one side of the hole and toilet bowl back out the other side. Now with the Cliffy on it, it drops in hard like there's a magnet under there. You still need to be accurate, but it's pretty awesome now. I've played some TAFs with the same Cliffy and I think they forget to spread it out a bit before they tighten the posts down.

As of yesterday, JJP's protectors are delayed for some reason. I just ordered the Cliffys for Dialed In to protect this on route from getting any worse. I'll see what the JJP ones look like when they come and decide whenever that is if they need to be swapped.

Cliffy did a great job like usual. He made a bunch of them for di.

Wha? Link?

Do we know when they will start being installed at the factory? This is my main hold up right now (that and I still want a distributor that will take my credit card without charging me a fee for it, though I have not looked for said dealer in awhile now...I've kept delaying).

How is DI selling right now? I'm looking forward to more unboxings and reports from operators on how it's doing.

Played one at the railroad crossings in Linfield PA last night. I hear it's doing well and the Scoops looked pretty good.

Dunno. All I know is they were going to start on the line and send me a set for the one we have here and then it was off and they're not installing them on the line. Some issue that wasn't made clear. Cliffy's will be fine, I can't wait to install something any longer.

Just email him at the contact link here: http://www.passionforpinball.com/

I don't think they're on his site yet.

I took delivery of a DILE last Wednesday. The upper flipper strength was set at 15 at the factory and mylar was installed installed at the scoops, pops, etc.

Sure enough, though, the SIM card hole chipped in the same spot at the DI's I have seen others post here (I did turn the flipper strength up to 17, though). I guess I am not too worried about it - you can't even see that area unless you move to the side of the machine and poke your head in there. It doesn't look like it is something that will get worse.

It will certainly be nice to add those factory protectors when they are in - just to prevent any further chipping.

A couple unboxing photos attached - notice the SIM card hole was fine from the initial photos (before I played any balls). It didn't take many plays for it to happen (<50).

Awesome game - I can't help but to play it. It is simply not possible to wait for factory protectors

The Quantum Theater mechanism is the best ever. It is a great tribute to Pinball 2000 and is open to so much possibilities. It takes the best part of the PB2000 platform (the "holographic" targets), but leaves the bad parts behind (not being able to see the actual playfield).

di2 (resized).jpg

di3 (resized).jpg

Yep, If Cliffy has them just install those. In fact, JJP should get some from Cliffy until theirs are ready.

Here are all the cliffys.... full protection baby...DI-sim002 (resized).jpgDI-sim003 (resized).jpgDI-Skill-slot001 (resized).jpgDI-eject-003 (resized).jpgDI-phone-001 (resized).jpg