(Topic ID: 201590)

Devil's Dare missing some speech

By sbmania

4 years ago


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  • 12 posts
  • 4 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 2 years ago by dobo
  • Topic is favorited by 7 Pinsiders

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Test_S16 (resized).JPG

#1 4 years ago

Any 80A Gurus here? I have a Devil's Dare which plays correctly, has all sounds correct, but only says "Ball Save" when appropriate. None of the other speech phrases are ever made. I have tried two different MPU boards, three different connectors between the MPU and driver board, replaced the 7404 on the driver board, and repinned the J5 connector coming out of the driver board.
In game play, when a phrase is supposed to be spoken, the game instead plays a sound or music notes instead of the correct speech, and then all sounds tend to go off until the ball drains.
In self test, the board seems to be doing what the manual says it should. First push of self test gives "AHHH" and second push gives a solid tone. Next push takes it out of self test.
Anyone with some experience here? Thanks!
PS I also tried a different SC-01 chip with no difference.

#2 4 years ago

You're probably still losing one of the sound lines somewhere along the way. If you've got a logic probe just stick it on each line where it goes into the sound board while you trigger the missing sound and see which one you don't get any activity on.

#3 4 years ago

Hello,

Quoted from zacaj:

You're probably still losing one of the sound lines somewhere along the way.

Yes there is one command line missing, and I can tell you which one.

On the DD, the sound board use 5 bits commands (S1, S2, S4, S8 and S16).
The "Ball save" voice message has the command code (hexa) : $0E
The others voice messages "Shoot..., Captive..." are $11, $13, $14, $16 and $1E - and as you can notice, all have the 5th bit set to "1".
This means that the missing command line is S16.

On SYS80/80A the S1..S8 sound signals are driven by the MPU board (and the drivers board - replacing the Z13/7404 on it, was a good way).
But the additionnal S16 signal was not original planned, and Gottlieb use a lamp to drive this one. On the schematic you can see that the S16 wire does not follow the same way than S1..S8.

The missing signal can come from several places:
- The sound board itself. The S16 entry stage use an intermediate LM193 (U24). It can be toasted, but that's extremely rare.
- The connectors. The S16 goes through several connectors before arriving at the sound board: A3J2 from the driver board, A12P4/J4 in the lightbox, and A6J1 on the sound board.
- The driver board. The S16 "sound" is basically the L9 "lamp" ! Thus, check if the Q10 transistor (MPS-A13) is burned or not.

#4 4 years ago
Quoted from noflip95:

Hello,

Yes there is one command line missing, and I can tell you which one.
On the DD, the sound board use 5 bits commands (S1, S2, S4, S8 and S16).
The "Ball save" voice message has the command code (hexa) : $0E
The others voice messages "Shoot..., Captive..." are $11, $13, $14, $16 and $1E - and as you can notice, all have the 5th bit set to "1".
This means that the missing command line is S16.
On SYS80/80A the S1..S8 sound signals are driven by the MPU board (and the drivers board - replacing the Z13/7404 on it, was a good way).
But the additionnal S16 signal was not original planned, and Gottlieb use a lamp to drive this one. On the schematic you can see that the S16 wire does not follow the same way than S1..S8.
The missing signal can come from several places:
- The sound board itself. The S16 entry stage use an intermediate LM193 (U24). It can be toasted, but that's extremely rare.
- The connectors. The S16 goes through several connectors before arriving at the sound board: A3J2 from the driver board, A12P4/J4 in the lightbox, and A6J1 on the sound board.
- The driver board. The S16 "sound" is basically the L9 "lamp" ! Thus, check if the Q10 transistor (MPS-A13) is burned or not.

Wow! Ton of info! Thanks! I have continuity across A3J2-9, A12P4/J4-14, and across A6J1-2. Q10 tests good in circuit. Could it still be bad? Also, I have continuity all the way from Q10 onto the sound board, so I am doubting edge connectors could be the problem.
What about Z3? Is that a possibility? It's a 74175. Any other thoughts on how to test? The only way I know to actuate the sounds is to put the game in play and drop 3 drop targets, or raise the bonus to 40k or 60k to get it to say the missing speech. What should I look for then when I am getting sounds played in the place of the correct speech? Thanks!!

#5 4 years ago

Yes the problem can come from the driver (Q10 or latches 74175), or the sound card. Unfortunately, on the SYS 80A, Gotllieb has not planned a test for sounds (what a shame!). I had done a few years ago, a special ROM (2716) for tests, that played all the sounds of a SYS 80A, but I do not remember where I put the binary file!

There is a tip you can try, to identify if the sound board is able to play the voices correctly : force the S16 signal to the ground.

The sound signals (S1..S16) works with negative logic : a "1" level is grounded, a "0" is at +5v (with pullup resistor).
So, the sound $01 has S1 grounded, and S2, S4, S8, S16 pull to +5v

To force the S16 signal to 1, it should be forced to ground. Easy to do on the sound board : connect a wire (using a grip - or even with a temporary welded strap) between the two resistors R30 / R24 as shown :
Test_S16 (resized).JPG
This will permanently drive the S16 to ground (set it to "1" logic level).
No risk to burn the Q10 (L9 output) as this one also drive a ground signal.

At the beginning of a game (add credits, and press the replay button), the DD will execute the following sequence:
- Play a sound $04 (S4 goes to ground)
- Eject the ball, and wait for the 3rd trough switch (SW51 - this check that the ball has been ejected)
- Play a series of sounds $0A (S8 and S2 goes to go ground)
- Play the voice $14 - "FIRE" - (S4 and S16/L9 goes to ground)

With S16 forced to ground, the message "FIRE" should be played twice (at start, and after ejecting the ball - and of course, another sound between them).

If you heard the "FIRE" voice, then this mean that the sound board works fine, and the problem is on the driver.
If not, then the culprit is the sound board.

In this case, it could be U24 (LM393), U16 (7404) or even the U15 (6532).

Another stupid idea to verify : be sure that you have an U.S. Devil's Dare Game ROM
Because there is an export model, and this one use the simple "6530" sound board. The rules ares the same, but the sound commands are dedicated to this board.. and have only 16 sounds - and as far as I remember - the S16 signal is never active in this version.

#6 4 years ago

Thanks Noflip95!! Your help has been indispensable! Followed your advice about jumpering the two resistors and got the game to say "Fire"! So the problem is definitely on the driver board. To confirm, I put in a driver board from my Spirit and got full speech.
I replaced Q10 with no change. Tested the resistor upstream and it appears within spec. My only other option it seems is the 74175. Unfortunately, I am trying to locate one as I don't have any in stock. Can these be tested in circuit?

#7 4 years ago

Yes, the 74175 can be checked, in circuit, using a simple voltmeter

Indeed, most of the failures on the driver boards are due to the transistors, but it happens sometimes that it is the latches that are burned. It's more rare, but we've seen it on several boards.
2017-11-03_07h26_02 (resized).png

To play a sound using S16, the CPU board sends a short pulse to the driver. The lamp L9 (Q2 output - pin 2 of Z3) is activated for approx. 92 ms then off.
Z3Q2 (resized).jpg

It's a bit less than 1/10 s, but long enough to be detected by a voltmeter (digital).
Simple connect the voltmeter at pin 7 of Z3 (+) and pin 8 (-, or any ground place). At normal time, the voltage displayed should be about 0.00 and stable.
When starting, after the ball ejected the voice "FIRE" is played, and the voltmeter display should vary quickly (but noticeable). If not, the 74175 is burned.

#8 4 years ago

Can i sub a 74ls175 for the 74175?

#9 4 years ago

Yes, here, about any technology can replace the "true antic TTL" 74175.
Sometimes these oldies are difficult to find.

On the driver board, there is absolutely no speed limitation, nor signal level problem.
If you can found them, the bests are the HCT (74HCT175) more modern, less consumption.
But a 74LS175 will works perfectly.

#10 4 years ago

Noflip95- You have been a tremendous help with my Devil's Dare speech problem, but I am in need of your expertise once again! I replaced Q10 (an MPS A13) with an ECG 46. I replaced the 74175 Z3 with a 74LS175. I checked the resistor in between the two. I also checked for continuity from pin7 of Z3 to the resistor, from the resistor through to Q10, and Q10's pins through to the edge connector and also through to the other transistors in line with it. I also checked Z3 pin 5 with Z4 and Z5 pin 5 to make sure of continuity. But the speech is still missing! I know the problem is with the driver board from the diagnostics you provided earlier and also because I substituted in a known good driver board which gives me all of the speech sounds. What am I missing??

#11 4 years ago

It's weird, as there is no more electronics parts involved in the sounds commands on the drivers board than:
- Z13, the 7404 that command the S1..S8 signals
- Z3, 74175 and R10 / Q10 that command the S16 signal.

Testing the D2 inputs was a good idea, to be certain that the Z3 inputs are correct.

If all components have been replaced, I don't see were could be the issue on the driver board. May be a cutted track somewhere or a bad contact on a connector. Cleaning the J2 connector on the driver board, using an abrasive gum could help.
To be sure that the L9 signal is not interrupted : with an ohmeter, check directly from the output of Q10 (from the collector pin) and pin 5 of U24 (on the sound board). If there is a measure different from 0 ohm (or some ohms) the problem could be on the connectors.

Another possibilty, is that the Q10 - ECG 46 is deffective from the factory. This sometime happen with NOS components.

I don't know in what state are the pins on the J2 connector of the driver, but sometimes people charge the contact again by adding solder. It deforms the slats of the connector and it causes bad contacts.

The type/model of the components can't be the problem, using 74xx or 74LS make no difference. I've also check the characteristics of the ECG 46, and it's a good substitute of the MPS-A13.

2 years later
#12 2 years ago

Hey I have a volcano that is giving me no speech or sound. I looked at this post and got further with this information then I have in a week! Noflip 95. Can you give me a private message as I need your help. I got some sounds putting the strap between r24 and r30. I have a brand new driver board and new sound/speech board. I have all the proper voltages and repined the connectors but still nothing. I'm not sure if it could be something on the mpu?
I need you help. Thanks

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