(Topic ID: 106691)

Developing My Short List Of EM "Wants" - Bally/Williams 1960's-70s


By PennSkier

5 years ago



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  • Latest reply 5 years ago by o-din
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#1 5 years ago

Hi All....

I am currently thinking about what my next move might be on the EM side of the house.

I currently own 4 classic Gottliebs - and I CERTAINLY have a list of more of those to keep an eye open for...BUT.....since I have 4 already, I would like my next game to be a Bally or Williams Classic.

What Bally/Williams EM games do YOU own that have stood the test of time in your collections?

To give an idea of a few games I have my eye on....I really like Williams Fan-Tas-Tic (1972) and also Williams Doodle Bug (1971). Both these games have visual appeal AND ALSO provide interesting games. Each of these games also throw a curveball due to non-traditional flipper arrangements. Fan-Tas-Tic has the pop bumper between the flips and Doodle Bug prevents "cradling" of a ball on the flipper due to the separation between the slingshot and the flipper. On both of these games, knowing when NOT to flip is as critical as knowing when to flip.

I do not have to have a non-traditional flipper setup - those 2 games just happen to have it.

I ALSO LIKE Bally Rocket III (1967). I have played it at Silverball Museum. This game has the oddball "spinning bumper" and non-traditional layout at the top of the game where the ball enters play. I should also mention an earlier Williams game - Beat The Clock from 1963 "the first multi-ball game". This is a VERY tough game due to the flipper arrangement.

THOSE ARE SIMPLY EXAMPLES - what Bally/Williams classic EMs would you suggest?

Thanks for reading - PennSkier

#2 5 years ago

I need to thin the herd,(so my wife says) and have a nice Williams Soccer EM with backglass animation for sale in your neck of the woods. PM if interested

#3 5 years ago
Quoted from PennSkier:

what Bally/Williams classic EMs would you suggest?

Owning Doodle Bug I would completely agree with that title being on your short list. Not being able to hold the ball really adds to the excitement and varies your collection a bit for more fun. I haven't had the pleasure to play a Fantastic, but also consider the early production version of Bally's Freedom, (http://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=952&picno=17147) which also had a similar configuration with the pop in the middle or even a Williams Suspense (http://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=2469&picno=34725) which is similar with a different layout.

For a complete different change of pace, Gottlieb's Super Score is also very unique and plays quite differently if you are looking for some variety.

Good luck with picking one out!

#4 5 years ago

I've owned Love Bug (AAB single player Doodle Bug) and my friend owned Fan-Tas-Tic. Having played them both quite a few times, I'm going to say that Doodle Bug would be the better choice of those two. The roulette wheel on Fan-Tas-Tic just seems to take up too much space. I have a Dealers Choice (two actually..but one is missing a backglass) and a Strike Zone. They are both keepers. Starting with Honey, Williams moved to DC powered pops and slings. I'd suggest getting something with DC power like OXO, Dealers Choice, Or Grand Prix. If you get a DC powered Williams, I'd recommend a pop bumper rebuild including new plungers, yolks and coil sleeves and and new coil sleeves for the slings. For the flippers, a new plunger/link and coil sleeve and a cleaning/adjusting of the eos and cleaning the contacts at the flipper buttons are usually to make them work well. I'd say that Williams games tend to have more snap to them and are usually more worn out compared to Gottlieb games.

#5 5 years ago

1973 Williams Gulfstream. Great art and the best Gameplay for a 70's Williams single player IMO.

Ken

#6 5 years ago

You might want to consider Bally Old Chicago. Nice mix of features, Great Dave Christensen Artwork.

I second a vote for Gulfstream. Great single player "balls to play" game. Also a second vote for Dealers Choice (or Lucky Ace if you can find one). Another fun game to play and I really like the Artwork of Christian Marche.

Bow and Arrow is another great late model EM. Honey is actually very fun but many don't like the artwork. Same holds true of Super Star but many REALLY hate that art.

Fan-Tas-Tic is a fun game but rather slow. There is a lot of wait and see with the main feature being the roulette wheel feature. Spanish Eyes would be better for the lower bumper arrangement but again, many can't get past the unique artwork it has.

On Beam is one of the only older Bally's I really enjoy playing. It has a feature of re-serving your extra ball from back up between the flippers.

#7 5 years ago

Thanks to everyone who is chiming in with ideas on this.

Williams Gulfstream and Bally Old Chicago definitely go on my list - I love both of those games.

Williams Dealer's Choice recently terrorized me when I played it at St. Peters Village Arcade - I could not complete the 1-9 buttons + the 10-J-Q-K-A targets no matter how hard I tried. TO ME, this is the sign of a challenging game that would be a good one to own. I am adding Dealer's Choice also to my list with an asterisk* LOL - for the color scheme. The black backglass (who does that?) + shocking pink are truly an odd color scheme - not the vibrant/bright that I normally am attracted to. Having said that, I like some oddball stuff in my collection - so let me play it some more and we will see.

Super Star - I also hate the art - I think it just screams "tacky 70s" - is that the general consensus? Why do so many people dislike it? Just curious.

@Poppapin - Thanks for reaching out on Williams Soccer. I think you are one step ahead of me - right now I'm just trying to come up with my game plan BUT - I will be making a "research trip" to Silverball Museum in the next week or 2 - and they have that game. Let me play it and I will let you know if I am interested (if you still have it).

I need to look into Bow and Arrow, Grand Prix and Spanish Eyes.

I appreciate the suggestion about the early production model of Freedom - but right now, I think there is enough coming together that I probably don't need to hunt and peck for a rare game. Not at this point in my collection-building.

ONE THING I DID NOT SAY in my original post.... A "nice to have" for me would be a game with an Asymmetrical playfield in order to diversify my collection. The 4 Gottliebs that I own (World Fair, Roller Coaster, Hearts & Spades and Volley) are all perfectly symmetrical - you could fold them down the middle like a Rorschach ink blot LOL.

So keep the ideas coming - and I am continuing to listen and will have my short list together after a few more days of consideration.

-PennSkier

#8 5 years ago

I'm giving this a one-time BUMP to see if any other suggestions surface. Original posting was somewhat lost in the shuffle of PinExpo posts & activity.

Thanks!

#9 5 years ago

There are a lot of great playing mid 60s Williams EMs. Don't just limit yourself to 70s games

#10 5 years ago

Thanks EMsInKC - Yes - I am hoping to hear a few of those that people own and that are "keepers" - my recent purchase of 1964 Gottlieb World Fair is fueling some of this (I love it!) - though on this mission I am specifically looking for recommendations other than Gottliebs - owning 4 Gottlieb EMs already.

#11 5 years ago

Well, I have a Williams River Boat and a Williams Ding Dong, and will soon have a Williams Hot Line-all mid/late 60s Williams games that I think are great players. Quite a few of the Williams reverse wedgeheads from the early 60s are just great games. They're not overly fast games, but the game play on them is just excellent.

70s Williams can be hit or miss, but they're fast and some of them have really cool rulesets.

Williams gets a bad rap. They made some dogs, but so did Gottlieb. That's ok with me, though. I like them, and the Gottlieb snobs ignore them, making the prices better.

#12 5 years ago

Williams Rocket III with Zipper Flippers and a spinning pop bumper. Very fun. Unusual ball entry lane too!

#13 5 years ago

When looking to buy a Bally or Williams EM -

turn around, and buy another classic Gottlieb instead!!

My collection right now:

Jack's Open, Central Park, Card Wiz, Slick Chick, Solar City, CrossTown and Hot Shot.

All EMs, all Gottliebs, all awesome.

#14 5 years ago

Centigrade 37 ....nuff' said...

#15 5 years ago
Quoted from PennSkier:

Super Star - I also hate the art - I think it just screams "tacky 70s" - is that the general consensus? Why do so many people dislike it? Just curious.

Super Star just has that groovy, far out 70s art. It's just not to everyone's taste. But beyond that, it's a FANTASTIC game. I currently have mine on AAB with the upper sling posts down (open) so balls can still scoot by with the outlane save posts up. My son bought it for cheap to sell and I ended up buying it from him to add to the collection. Super symmetrical playfield layout and no end of ball bonus.

My daughter has a Dealers Choice in her apartment at Michigan Sate. I'd say the 1-9 rollovers are pretty easy to get double/triple bonus. Hitting the 10-J-Q-K-A targets to light EB are a tad harder as most of those need to be done with the upper flipper. Collecting the EB is another matter. Rarely does the ball ever go down the right inlane. You can't get any more asymmetrical than this game. Split flippers on left, only a left outlane, right lower and upper flippers and targets on the left. Only the upper 1/4 of the game is symmetrical.

#16 5 years ago
Quoted from spfxted:

Centigrade 37 ....nuff' said...

nuff said for what, nice art, mediocre game play?

#17 5 years ago

Fantastic art. Great game play. Animated backglass. Nuff' said...

#18 5 years ago

But the OP said he was looking for a Williams or a Bally. So why chime in with that in the first place?

Just couldn't help yourself?

#19 5 years ago

Spanish Eyes, Klondike, I really like Swinger - a 2-player.

#20 5 years ago
Quoted from EMsInKC:

But the OP said he was looking for a Williams or a Bally. So why chime in with that in the first place?
Just couldn't help yourself?

Quoted from EMsInKC:

nuff said for what, nice art, mediocre game play?

Take it easy killer....or take your meds.....

#21 5 years ago
Quoted from PennSkier:

I currently own 4 classic Gottliebs - and I CERTAINLY have a list of more of those to keep an eye open for

I thought that gave me a little wiggle room to rec...

#22 5 years ago

You tell 'em spfxted! lol...

It means, don't get a Williams/Bally, get a Gottlieb, you'll be happier.

#23 5 years ago

If the OP gave you a thumbs up he must have appreciated your input.

The thing is everyone knows Gottlieb made a bunch of great Ems. The great Williams and Bally titles aren't as celebrated but they are out there.

Here's a fewThat come to mind that I like:
Klondike/Yukon/Gold Rush
Spanish Eyes
Kickoff/Touchdown
Almost all of the 60s Williams reverse wedge heads are good.
Space Mission
Grand Prix
Teacher's Pet
Moulin Rouge
Hot Line
8 Ball
Magic City
Blast Off
Dixieland
4 Million BC
Fireball
Star Jet

There's probably a bunch of others that I didn't think of, were too obscure or I haven't played yet.

#24 5 years ago

If you do go older WMS, my friend Loves his Heat Wave but its just not my cup of Tea. I have always liked Magic City myself. I have a Doozie which is fun and has Zipper Flippers. But it is definitely a slow Williams compared to when they went DC.

Dealer's Choice is a game that needs to be properly dialed in (and So is Strato-Flight). The yellow targets need to be properly adjusted so that a "hit" will actually score the letter. Otherwise, it is a very frustrating game. Same goes for the 1-9 Rollover buttons. They need to be adjust to actually score if the ball rolls over them and not be so strong that the ball jumps when it hits them. Unfortunately, there is little you can do for a really fast game (freshly waxed). If the ball is hit directly at them, they usually won't score. The numbers, instead, become something you get because the ball arched across the playfield which is half the fun (to me anyway).

I have seen many a Dealers Choice and Stratoflight where the operators bent the targets out so that it was very difficult, if not impossible for the ball to ever score the letter with anything but a direct hit. On Stratoflight, that direct hit may only come from a bumper so the player is not really in control.

Triple Action is another fun and fast WMS game from the mid 70's. Its fun to smack that horizontal spinner and great to hear it count down 15,000 in bonus X3 super fast.
A second Vote for Swinger. A very fun and fast simple game. Definitely Swinger over Fun Fest as it still uses the larger score reels.

If you can get past what I consider butt ugly artwork, Pat Hand may be another choice along the lines of Dealer's Choice.

#25 5 years ago

In my opinion, most of the single player reverse-wedge head Williams titles of the early 60's are great. More than great in some cases. Trade winds is my personal favorite. While difficult to find, they are worth the search. Teachers Pet is also a very fun game, I had a hard time getting a decent one of those too though.
On the flip side, there are not many Williams titles from the 70s i would want, but doodle bug is a great game. I'm overall not a huge 70's pin fan, nor am I a fan of the "pointy people" look, but the game play of doodle bug speaks for itself. If this is a title you are seeking, PM me.
I always give every game a chance, but overall the small flipper games are what I enjoy most.
On the Bally front, I have a 68 Safari that is a 2 player game and is very fun, there is a Bally Wild Wheels for sale in Red Bank NJ right now on CL. Not many good 60s Bally games come up for sale often unfortunately. Moon Shot and Star Jet are two I wouldn't mind owning.

Quoted from EMsInKC:

Well, I have a Williams River Boat and a Williams Ding Dong, and will soon have a Williams Hot Line-all mid/late 60s Williams games that I think are great players. Quite a few of the Williams reverse wedgeheads from the early 60s are just great games. They're not overly fast games, but the game play on them is just excellent.
70s Williams can be hit or miss, but they're fast and some of them have really cool rulesets.
Williams gets a bad rap. They made some dogs, but so did Gottlieb. That's ok with me, though. I like them, and the Gottlieb snobs ignore them, making the prices better.

Agree 100%

#26 5 years ago

I *HIGHLY* recommend getting a Bally Zipper Flipper game for your collection. Capersville, 4MBC, Fireball, Cosmos, Gator & The Wiggler are all outstanding examples to own.

Marcus

#27 5 years ago

Doodle bug is simply awesome. The family says I'm never allowed to get rid of it cause it's so much fun. The logic is very simple and you have just enough control to drive you bonkers and keep wanting more. My son who was 9 at the time still holds the house high score. He went "Over The Top" and beyond. This game teaches you to not always bash the flippers and let the ball bounce a bit, it's about the only way to get control and take aim. You will love it.

#28 5 years ago
Quoted from Dbaum88:

You tell 'em spfxted! lol...
It means, don't get a Williams/Bally, get a Gottlieb, you'll be happier.

I would not go so far as to say that! I think a nice diversity is what makes a complete collection. I may be biased as my collection tilts the scale towards Williams games, but to each his own. I think lack of exposure to the good Williams games in good condition is mostly what keeps them the hidden gems that they are. They can stay that way as far as I am concerned, more for the pickin' of us 60s Williams lovers.

#29 5 years ago
Quoted from PhilC:

I would not go so far as to say that! I think a nice diversity is what makes a complete collection. I may be biased as my collection tilts the scale towards Williams games, but to each his own. I think lack of exposure to the good Williams games in good condition is mostly what keeps them the hidden gems that they are. They can stay that way as far as I am concerned, more for the pickin' of us 60s Williams lovers.

That's the whole deal. People aren't willing to open their eyes and minds and give other games and makers a chance.

But I'm good with it. It allows me to buy great playing games in very good condition at a price that's totally reasonable.

#30 5 years ago

I really appreciate everybody's suggestions. Many of them I am familiar with and some of them I need to "research". I know Silverball Museum has a few of them.

I was happy to see a few people getting on the topic of earlier 60s games. I've enjoyed both Beat The Clock and Tradewinds at Silverball.

I'm going to soak on some of this for a few days and then I will try to put my "short list" together - I will share it here. Since some of these games are not easily abvailable, my gameplan is to have a shortlist of about 10-12 games any of which might be the next one - if and when I find the right thing in reasonable cosmetic condition and operable.

I'm not really into project games at this point. Plug & Play LOL.

Thanks, PennSkier

#31 5 years ago

I'm only really familiar with maybe a dozen Williams and Bally EMs; of them, I would suggest Grand Prix if you want something conventional. If you want to shake it up, I'd go for an older Gottlieb without inlanes.

#32 5 years ago

Silverball Museum trip today! Research on this very topic. I will report back.

#33 5 years ago

I have a few EM's FS if anyone is looking for these titles:
GTB. Duotron, Bally Zip a Doo, GTB Rack a Ball, WMS 8 Ball. WMS Triple Action

#34 5 years ago

Silverball is great, but there are few '70's williams games...I believe Sky Lab and Space Mission(from memory). Also, I do not believe there were any Chicago Coin games. Kind of a shame not to represent those brands more.. If you are looking for a 60's game, I think King Pin and Alpine Club are cool games..both available for play at the Silberball Museum.

#35 5 years ago

Williams Rancho. Never fails to challenge. Mine has a metal cabinet.

#36 5 years ago

I have a Williams Liberty Bell which is very similar to Grand Prix. I can tell you that mine is a brutally fast and unforgiving game...but I love it. For me it's one of those "just one more time" tables. Grand Prix should be a bit more friendly because it has inlanes as opposed to Liberty Bell's full slings and outlanes. Plus I really dig Williams use of DC pops and slings. My slings can actually fire the ball up through the spinners to the top of the playfield.

I would just hate Grand Prix's four sets of score reels to clean.

#37 5 years ago

So here is a quick "Photo tour" of the RELEVANT GAMES to this topic that I played at Silverball Museum on Saturday (I will do a separate thread/topic that is a more conventional Trip Report).

Magic Town - Add a Ball version of Magic City -this one will MAKE my short list of games to look for... I've always liked the game play as well as the stunning visual appearance. It shares the unconventional "pop bumper between the flippers" setup that Fan-Tas-Tic also has. Add-A-Ball always preferred for my home collection BUT it's not a must-have.
DSC08120-592.JPG

Williams Wing Ding - Gorgeous artwork and great gameplay - BIG plus is the backglass animation that "racks a ball" when you hit certain rollovers or land in certain kickout holes (when lit). Not an easy game - BUT I went back to this game 3 or 4 times during my day at Silverball - which always is a clear signal that it would be a good candidate for home.
DSC08121-903.JPG

I should note that there was a Williams Alpine Club right next to some of these others - great visual appeal BUT I could not seem to warm up to the gameplay - so no photo of that one - not a candidate for my home collection.

Williams Doodle Bug - From the prior discussion, this one is definitely a contender! There is no more to say! (I should note that my gameplay on this yesterday was NOT ideal - it was as if Doodle Bug spat upon me and mocked me. Even a game that I desire to own - and some that I ALREADY OWN - have days like this.)
DSC08127-283.JPG

Williams King Pin - I had a fun time playing this on Saturday - it is a fun game with great visual appeal - I have played it before and always enjoy BUT it seems to fall just short for me overall - so this one will not make my list. It is a game I could potentially warm to, though - but for now - off the list.
DSC08130-716.JPG

Williams Big Star (i.e. Super Star) - In spite of our previous discussions in the thread above, I stepped up to Big Star and gave it a "fresh try". I proceeded to kick its ass with a score of 154,000. When I can do this with a game that I am not familiar with, that is normally an immediate disqualifier - it's not a game I would bring home because it is "too easy" and will not keep me occupied at home. (A sidenote - I had the same experience with the "modern game" The Shadow about a year ago - I had never played it and the first time out I scored north of 2 Billion - so this can happen with any era game). FURTHERMORE, the entire time I was racking up the 154,000 score on Big Star, the HORRIBLE dark purple/orange and black color scheme was driving me up the wall. So Super Star/Big Star is off the list. I tried.
DSC08134-125.JPG

Williams Beat Time - This game certainly challenged me better than Big Star - but I feel like it is a bit "thin" on playfield features. Aside from the rotating target in the center of the game, it feels quite generic to me - a longstanding opinion I have held about this game but I gave it a fresh look yesterday. This one will not make my short list.
DSC08136-858.JPG

So my trip to Silverball did yield a few more candidates for my "Short List" of 60s-70s EMs to seek out.

In the next day or 2 I will finalize my "short list" and publish it here - it will include those mentioned with photos in THIS message as well as a few others from our discussions above.

Thanks to everyone who has followed this discussion along! - PennSkier

#38 5 years ago

One additional suggestion since you like the 60's..Hot Line. An incredible game and way before its time....spelling hot line using the roll over buttons...genius. Is there another em with a more complex sequence?

#39 5 years ago

I was going to say Williams King Pin, but to be honest, I had SUCH a hard time finding a decent one, let alone one at all, I wasn't going to put it out there with false hope of finding one. Really surprised this fell short of what you were looking for though, its really up there on my list of favorites. Only complaint I have on Magic Town is that they didn't use different art work for the playfield from Magic City, looks makeshift IMO. Ive never actually played Magic Town, but do like Magic City. Let us know what you decide!

#40 5 years ago

Sorry to hear about Big Star. I know if you came to play my Super Star you'd have a hell of a time rolling it. I had a party back in April and anyone that rolled it got a prize. Closest was 60k.

#41 5 years ago

@schudel - No need to apologize about Big SuperStar - it's why there are many many games to suit from. Some games appeal to some of us while others do not. You've got a great game that you enjoy - so what's not to like?

#42 5 years ago

I would put a vote in for 1976 Williams Aztec.
http://www.ipdb.org/machine.cgi?id=119

I also like William's 1972 Swinger/FunFest, Has a moving target, kickback, 7 bumpers and a gate to the shooter lane.

#43 5 years ago
Quoted from NextoPin:

I would put a vote in for 1976 Williams Aztec.

I agree, Aztec is a great Williams Multiplayer. I have a Sonic Prospector which is similar in some ways and it is as good for Gameplay IMO. I do like my Prospector a tad better as having the 2 spinners, the Gold/Silver Bonus, a Kickback lane along with 3 Kickout Holes are very cool features. I like the great artwork on both equally.

Ken

#44 5 years ago
Quoted from PennSkier:

Thanks EMsInKC - Yes - I am hoping to hear a few of those that people own and that are "keepers" - my recent purchase of 1964 Gottlieb World Fair is fueling some of this (I love it!) - though on this mission I am specifically looking for recommendations other than Gottliebs - owning 4 Gottlieb EMs already.

Now, don't go all affirmative action on this! If you want, say, the six games that you enjoy the most, go get the six games you enjoy the most, regardless their ethnicity

Any time you are selecting (or discarding) games based on who made them, I think you are, by definition, leaving better games (or games you like better) on the sidelines. There is, for example, a bunch of good reasons why Gottlieb dominated pinball for 30 years starting in 1948.

Also, there is something to be said for having a collection with fewer manufacturers...you'll need a smaller parts stash, you won't have to go to two or three or more schematic languages, etc. And if you stick with Gottliebs, you won't ever need a phillips screwdriver

#45 5 years ago
Quoted from bonzo71:

One additional suggestion since you like the 60's..Hot Line. An incredible game and way before its time....spelling hot line using the roll over buttons...genius. Is there another em with a more complex sequence?

The first dot matrix game! Well, sort of.

#46 5 years ago

NON Gottlieb EMs I would own...it is a short list.

72' Bally Fireball
71' Bally Sea Ray / Mariner
64' Williams Riverboat
63' Williams Big Daddy
76' Williams Space Mission / Space Odyssey (Maybe and only because it was the first pinball I ever played in the late 70's as a very small child.)

I am sure I am leaving out a few but these were the only ones that came to mind.

#47 5 years ago

<blockquote cite="#2001That's juNON Gottlieb EMs I would own...it is a short list.
72' Bally Fireball
71' Bally Sea Ray / Mariner
64' Williams Riverboat
63' Williams Big Daddy
76' Williams Space Mission / Space Odyssey (Maybe and only because it was the first pinball I ever played in the late 70's as a very small child.)
I am sure I am leaving out a few but these were the only ones that came to mind.

Grand Prix. Hot Line. That's just a couple. There are many more.

#48 5 years ago

Would strongly recommend '64 Williams Heat Wave and '65 Teacher's Pet (the one game that I owned and sold that I probably miss more than any others and that includes Jack's Open, Abra Ca Dabra, Royal Flush, etc.) - just a fun, fast, smooth flowing game.

Also agree with others who said that having a variety of game manufacturers, styles, etc adds to the experience. I would like to get an asymmetrical play field (maybe Flip A Card) - just have to find room. I'm one over my space limit right now!

#49 5 years ago

Yeah, I sold my Teacher's Pet this year and I miss it too. It's just kind of an odd game that's not really on the radar but it really has addictive gameplay. I liked the art too. One of the few that I have sold and really regretted letting go over the years.

#50 5 years ago
Quoted from EMsInKC:

But the OP said he was looking for a Williams or a Bally. So why chime in with that in the first place?

Because that's the only one he knows.

I have a variety of EMs from Gottlieb, Bally, and Williams, and they all made some good machines. I am happy with my Flipper, Slick Chick, and Kings and Queens as I think these are some of the better machines Gottlieb made in that era.

As far as Bally is concerned, they were not big on flipper games until the 70s as most of their early machines were bingos. I do have a couple of gems though. Fireball is the game that really put them on the map, and it is a great multiplayer machine with several innovative features. Bally did not make many single players, but Bon Voyage may be their best. Great artwork and a near perfect layout with a variety of shots and a great spinner makes this one of the more popular games in my collection.

Williams made many great ones, but I prefer those from the 60s and prior. Big Daddy is my favorite with beautiful artwork and challenging gameplay that never gets old. I just picked up a Rocket, and it is not that hard, but very addictive to play. Trying to light up all the rockets on the backglass never seems to get old. Rocket is a surprisingly fast playing machine considering when it was made.

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