People will do anything to make a buck, especially if it costs them nothing. People simply need to get over the missing out, and not reward these types, let them deal with paying or losing deposits and they will move on to the next hobby.
It's no secret at this point there are a ton of people with disposable income flooding this scene more than ever, and they have enough F you money that this doesn't hurt them in the slightest, so I have little faith things will change any time soon.

Can I be #1 on the list of people begging you not to come back in? why do you have to be such a dick about everything? If you have an opinion, by all means voice it....but it's like you have this "I'm an ass" reputation you have to live up to with each post. Is your life really that empty that you have to come to Pinside and berate someone on a message board to make yourself feel better?

How about we all just admit you are better at pinball than all of us, you know more about everything than all of us, and you are just an all around better person than any of us will ever be? If we admit that will you stop attacking everyone that starts a thread you don't like?

DEEP technique. Do not: Defend Engage Explain or Personalize. He might not check enough boxes to qualify for NPD in the DSM5; but it's close enough where this strategy should work fine.

"You are a dick with no life who lives an empty existence! Also, why do you keep attacking people with mean words?"

Well played, Manimal!

I prefer DERP technique myself.

Yea, my questions were purposeful. I figure the difference between you and I, is that I am not here 24/7 and in and out of every thread attacking people and trying to make them feel inferior. I'll just stick to this one.

Precisely.

People who have zero wit and resort to lame "mom's basement" attacks do not deserve my attention and won't be getting any more of it. You however have proven to be a worthy adversary, and have really made me think about the consequences of flipping and why distributors should be working over time to halt the practice!!!

(well, at least half that statement is true)

I've met you and you just seem like a relatively normal cool New York dude who is into pinball. Not sure why people get so up in arms about your posts. You've always responded when I've reached out with a question about something locally and tried to offer advice or help, and I didn't know you from Adam. Not like you need any back up in here. But just thought I'd chime in with a personal endorsement.

That said, I'm with the OP on this one. Profiteering is crappy, whether its "permitted" or not. Although I don't feel too bad for distributors, either, as I've seen them jack up prices as their allotment gets low only to drop the price as stock comes back in. So the guy who buys in at the wrong time ends up getting the shaft. But amusement games have always been the domain of carnies and con men, so it shouldn't be that surprising regardless.

Good or bad, evil or not, the market in action or profiteering..................
It's all academic and discussion really doesn't matter, since there is no way to enforce any kind of rule about selling spots or games.
Who would monitor it?
How would it be enforced?
What's the penalty for violating whatever the rule would be?
It's just not practical to prevent, so it will happen on some level.

I would think some distributors already keep internal lists of flippers, and move them towards the back of the line in favor of location buyers and players...

These days with far more demand than supply, Stern distributors can pick and choose who gets their limited LE slots. Some may do "first come, first served," but most probably prioritize long-term or repeat customers as part of the whole "good will" process. And if they know you're regularly flipping LE slots I imagine some would pass you over next time around on the theory that you're more likely to be "loyal" if you're actually keeping the machines you buy. This would seems easier for the distributor than refusing to allow transfer of the pre-order slot (in which case they've now got to collect from an upset buyer when the game actually ships).

I also wonder what percentage of buyers are actually flipping LE slots these days. I haven't looked into it but would be a little surprised if it were higher than 5-10%.

I don't see how that solves anything in this market. Nothing is stopping you from putting a deposit on your own GZ premium. If someone wants to pay $3000 extra to get one faster, who cares? People pay extra for convenience/faster delivery all the time. If you prevent that, there is nothing stopping that person from just taking ownership of game and immediately flipping it. In short, you are not going to fix high prices and shortages with these little games.

If 20 people begged you to jump off the top of a skyscraper, would you?

Good spirit as I enjoy reading content from the both of you on here.

if Distributors are giving priority to ‘regulars’ it precludes others from getting a spot. In a world where the LEs sell out immediately, and distros have lists of interested buyers it does make sense that they should only offer refunds of deposits and go to next person on list. It is not much more work for them thean getting the new owner info (which they have to do anyway) and refunding the deposit of the dropout.

Levi wants to treat the deposit like a stock option (the right to buy the game for MSRP), which is fungible. I get the capitalist take, but it isn’t fair where the initial deposits taken are limited to a select group of regulars in perpetuity. [I’m still upset about Automated never getting back to me about CCRLE]

The solution, which I would choose, is for manufacturers to stop making limited editions of 1000 or 1200. Make 3500+ They will all sell and everyone who wants one can get it and no one will sell a spot for profit.

This option I can get behind but I"m sure the distributors that did this would get flamed mercilessly on here and in other places.

The practice that really bothers me more is are the guys that are on every distributors "list", particularly the ones that don't take a deposit. Makes it real hard to figure out when you might get a game and how many people are in front of you. I can only imagine the extra work on the distributors.

Boy oh boy, you guys waste a lot of time and effort on some things that are WAY out of your control in this hobby.

Chill. Enjoy the games you have, focus on yourself, don't worry about keeping up with other Pinsiders. These are literally stupid fucking pinball machines.

Thing is the OP started this thread over a Stern Premium preorder. What a weird time.

Would you be happier if they took delivery of the game, and flipped it for $2000 more than the NIB price. Technically they would only make a 20% profit.

For the flipper it doesn't matter where in the chain they make the profit, but it is a hell of a lot less work to flip a deposit instead of a physical game for the same amount of money.

Acceptance - rather than bargaining (hoping a higher power institutes some sort of control where none is possible), anger, and even denial - is definitely the way to go here.

You’ll be happier in the long run, and seem well on your way!

I just sold one of my 4 haggis fathom mermaid pre order spots on pinside yesterday. I paid the $55 pinside fee they charge for selling an actual $10k-$15k NIB pinball game when what I actually sold was a much less expensive preorder. Pinside benefited, I benefited and the buyer benefited because he got in on a game he otherwise would not have been able to. Win-win-win.

Swampfire (john) ripped me a new one over my $1345 profit... calling me a "D*BAG" and more. His negativity got us both moderated and kicked off the Haggis thread for 2 days. SMH

I sought out, tracked down, put the time in, found and paid $4400 (total) for all 4 game deposits months ago. They're mine. I own them just like I'll own the pinball games they're attached to when they are made.

What's the difference if I sell the preorder for a profit now or wait until the game is delivered to my home and then sell the NIB game for a profit? What if I take it out of the box, play it for a year and then sell it for a profit? It's all the same thing.

Now, if what people are unhappy about is "a small group of pinballer guys on the inside" who are in on premium/LE lists with distributors and automatically have a spot on every game without putting down any money on the game... and then they sell that spot for even $1... that to me is wrong. You shouldn't be able to do that. I don't know how distro sales work. I've never bought one from a distro. I wouldn't think you could just say... "yea put me on the list for a godzilla LE, I'll pay in full when it comes in." I'd think you'd need to put down money to hold the spot?

I don't think it's the profit so much as taking spots away from others. Sounds like you bought 4 Fathom spots with intent to profit. I don't care but I can see that being frustrating for others.

Buying 4 preorder spots is the problem. You only did that to take advantage of others, who can’t buy a preorder spot because of greedy people that buy multiple spots.

Yes, but I bought them long after all 250 were sold out. I didn't get any of these spots at the initial offering. The 4 spots are from people who got tired of waiting and just wanted their non refundable deposit back. I bought the spots one at a time as they came up for sale.

I bailed them out in a sense and kept 4 antsy people from complaining publicly about haggis' delays.

Haggis wins by having less bad publicity, the sellers win by getting their non refundable deposits back and I win by maybe being able to sell the preorder (or the actual game) at a profit after many months of having my money tied up. Win-win-win.

I thought this Haggis Mermaid machine was dead ? They are still making it!?

Ah yes, scalpers just doing us all a favor. I've heard it for decades with concert tickets, posters, sneakers, you name it. Thanks for all the value you add to society!

Or, if you didn’t buy up four spots maybe those people you took an extra $1300 from would have bought the spot and actually kept the game.

You can scalp preorder spots if you want, just don’t expect others to cheerlead you while you do so.

Not expecting that at all. I'm just saying there's nothing wrong with the practice.

And that is a matter of opinion. If you ask the people who had to pay $1300 more for their game because you bought four spots they might have a different opinion.

I’m not against people making money in pinball, I buy project games, fix them up and often resell them for a profit. I’m putting my labor in there though. It’s harder for me to justify reselling a preorder spot. At that point it’s more of a predation on a market. Again, my opinion. What you are doing isn’t illegal, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t considered wrong by some people.

The "people" you mention could have bought the exact same 4 spots that I did. It's called hustling. I didn't just add 4 fathom mermaids to my cart back when they went live for sale. I've been buying the spots from others (over the last 6 months) who wanted out of their non refundable preorders. I'm not forcing anyone to buy anything, just offering it for sale.

And, you're right it is a matter of opinion. 57% of those polled agree with me. 43% agree with you.

If the poll said "is it cool to buy 4 spots with the intent of scalping at least 3 of them," you might see different percentages. Selling one spot doesn't seem as dirty to most folks.

Everyone loves a hustler ...

Newman (resized).jpg

Look man, if you are trying to justify this to yourself go ahead. You aren’t going to convince many people that you pocketing $5200 from scalping four fathom spots is a noble and honorable thing to do.

There’s no difference between what you are doing and someone scalping tickets to an event. Some people consider that a predatory way to make a buck. The fact that you bought four spots for a game with the apparent sole purpose of scalping them isn’t helping your case either.

Yeah I know a person who "hustles" aka scoops up vinyl off elderly people and widows then turns around and charges 100% or more than what he pays.
Is it illegal? No, but human beings have this unique ability to convince themselves something is totally fine if it suits them - all it takes is for you to block out that conscious (well if you had one to begin with)

There is falling into an incredible deal, and then there is a pre-meditated approach which raises the cost of entry and diminishes enjoyment for everyone in a hobby who are in there to have fun. No one cares about how hard of work it was to screw someone out of their hobby.

If there is a plate of donuts put out for a group of people, I will eat all of them… because fuck those guys.

Thank heavens I have as much free time as you people to argue about this stupid shit.......

You’re the dude that ate Loser Kids pizza at TPF aren’t you?!?!

If I would have gone to TPF… I would have eaten all the pizza. All the pizza is mine.

A true hustler would also take the plate.

What d0n is not saying, or covering up in some ways is that he bought the spots from people who were scared with all the negative shit that is being tossed at haggis that they were going to loose their deposit as the company was going under.

Then d0n 180'ed his position, and though he claims to be the protector of Haggis's rep from 3 worried people here, he was trashing the company with his fears that now HE was going to loose 4 deposits.
He bought the spots with the stated intention of selling the games once they were delivered at a profit. All good. He bought the spots at cost (or below, who knows), didn't pay a premium.

Then he starts getting scared, calling out Haggis and has stated in that thread that he's now selling spots to 'hedge his bets'. All good.

But, he's selling those spots at a profit, not all good, and he's not stating his fears that there is risk involved in the ad, but in the thread saying that people should do their own research and 'put their big boy pants on'.

I think it's despicable behaviour and that he's cheating the community that supports him. Pinballers pay his rent for fucks sake.

If you are worried d0n and want to 'hedge your bets' then do the responsible thing that the people who sold your spots to did, and get out at cost. We are a community here, stop preying on your brothers and sisters.

A true hustler would take the plate, cut the donuts into bites, sell them outside of planet fitness and raffle off the plate as rare/antique. Selling tickets with no intention of ever having a drawing. I call it deeprooting for short!

Greedy people look at the world as a zero-sum game. Instead of thinking that everyone would benefit as the pie gets larger, they view the pie as a constant and want to have the biggest part. They truly believe that they deserve more, even if it comes at someone else's expense.