they don't require a deposit because they have no idea what kind of allocations they're going to get. They do this to have to avoid refunding you when they have to break the bad news to you.

Might as well go one step further and shame anyone that sells a game for more than what they paid for it, regardless of market value.

Hey man don't feel bad, I have a pre-order for both HWN and UM. I couldn't sell them for a ham samich right now, woe is me

yeah, it's called every FS post on Pinside and Facebook.

They both are going to be good games when code is complete. Certain people keep repeating bad impressions from code at infancy and have to keep the pot stirring for attention.

Do you think the list for a distributor that requires no deposit for a given Premium or LE game is going to be shorter or longer than a distributor that requires a $1K deposit? Both places sell the game for the same $. They each got 4 games when the machines became available and no more will be made.

Now, apply this answer to your chances of actually buying a game when it becomes available. Which place are you more likely to get your game if you contacted them at the exact same time? You don't need to require a deposit because no one can get machines that DO NOT EXIST! Deposits are designed to increase your chances of getting a game, not decrease it.

A problem with the idea is that the scalpers would just switch to selling the deposit switch process. Like, "Hey, for $2,000 I'll make arrangements for you to buy my $1000 deposit spot from my distributor." It only adds one step for the scalper, which they will happily undertake.

This one is 50% off preorder and going on the line this month!

https://pinside.com/pinball/market/classifieds/ad/131892

You have to realize they take more names than machines they will ever get because people disappear, ordered somewhere else, or decide they don't want it and they need to skip over those flakes, right?

That’s not a great point. They aren’t turning down money, they just have different policies.

Also why on earth would someone buy a deposit from a distro from someone? There is no guaranteed order to any of that. You could be told you’re next in line and still not get a game for months and months.

I guess I read your proposal as being that the dealer/distributor would accept payment from the person buying the spot and then issue a refund to the person selling the spot, and then the new person would own that same spot in the line and the original depositor would be free and clear. But your response to me makes it sound like you're proposing for the dealers to open a new spot at the end of the line, accept payment for that new spot, then issue a refund for the spot of the person who wants out, and lastly move everyone on the list up one spot to fill the empty one. Is that what you meant?

Being able to afford an overpriced deposit is like another level of privilege on top of just being able to afford a table. I really don't have the same type of concerns as I would with somethin like video games where poor little old grandmas are getting confused and ripped off as they attempt to buy little Johnny a coveted Christmas present. We're talking about people with thousands of dollars falling out of their asses purchasing the first thing they can see.

The homeowner part of this hobby has a lot of wealthy people and whales, and these scalpers are orientated towards serving people who are able to pay whatever. I don't think they are trying to take advantage of desperate or vulnerable people.

This sounds like a guy who lets randos on pinside make his decisions for him.

It makes some sense to me that you can get your deposit back and the next person on the waiting list moves up to the leave a deposit list.Non transferable.The distro doesnt lose if theres a list of buyers,otherwise no refund if they cant replace the buyer.Thats why you left a deposit.MWO

I think the other side of this discussion that hasn't come up is how its actually the DISTRIBUTORS who should be more upset about this whole situation than anyone.

Their hands are tied (on most titles) for prices by the manufacturers. Every Stern LE that they are obligated to sell at MSRP and then watch it instantly flipped for a sizeable profit is money taken OFF of their family dinner table. This might be a temporary phenomenon but at this moment it is very real and the numbers are very large.

If I am a distributor and I get 10 LE spots and 8 of those buyers flip for 5,000 over MSRP before they even open a box or in many cases even take delivery, well you can do the math of how much the distributor is losing out on. If I am understanding correctly this is the side of the coin that feels a lot more like parasitic behavior. Willing buyers are willing buyers. People left out in the cold on NIB at MSRP are just that. Distributors are losing out on massive profit in this current environment. That might be the real travesty here.

Some seem to have found a "loophole" of sorts like Zach selling NIB Stern LE's well over sticker because he "took it in on trade". I am not trying to pick on Zach but does anyone (Stern) actually police that? How many **Wink Wink Nod Nod** NIB current run Stern titles can one "take in on trade" before raising suspicion? Seems like it would be laughably easy as a distributor to exploit this option. "sell the machine" to Uncle Joe at MSRP, file the paperwork, then sell the game to someone else on behalf of Uncle Joe on the open market because Uncle Joe traded me for an old game that no one can track, no one ever needs to see or has a right to see and is already off my inventory and off the books.

Again, I don't fault anyone in that scenario but it does seem like a pretty clever little way to get in on the frenzy as a distributor instead of sitting empty handed watching your down stream customers capture that cashflow.

Here's how you fix it. Stop with the over the top FOMO in the hobby. Everyone lining up to get the new shiny thing that will probably disappoint about 85% of the time. Other people want to throw money at an unknown quantity, more power to them. I'll happily sit back and buy known quantity machines that have a solid track record of being fun and challenging.

Sure, I might be a few years behind the curve but that's fine, I am enjoying the hobby. It's called the bleeding edge for a reason.

Scalpers / rent seekers are despicable in all their forms, whether it's Pinball, Nintendos, or hassling billy goats who just want to cross a bridge. But yeah, I feel a lot more empathy for the grandmas you mention or the kids who just want to see their favorite band play a show than I do for people who have $8,000 - $12,000 earmarked for a game. And consequently feel that being the scalper scalping those people is a level of scumminess slightly less scummy than they could be.

New proposed Pinside Achievement Award IBTL: In before the Levi

No winners this thread

Distributors are providing a service, so I'm sure it does feel bad when scalpers who are providing nothing of value walk away with money that's been left on the table. But I think the "Pinball is hard," saying mostly applies to the people designing and building the games, so I'd much rather see the silly money ending up in their hands.

Yeah I was being a smart ass. I bought mine to play it and because I'm a horror nerd, mine's on the line next as well and I'm pretty stoked! Will I ever pre-order something without a gameplay stream again? Definitely not LOL.

I got excited for a minute and was about to ask rye, wheat, sourdough, or white?

I've got you beat. At least you have 2 separate games there. I've got a BSE *and* a CE UM preorder lol.

??? That sounds awfully entitled if a Distributor thinks the flip margin somehow should be theirs. For what? They don’t add that much value that would justify them earning this extra cash.

If MSRP is so low as to enable 50% flip profit then the MSRP is set incorrectly.

The only entity that has a justifiable claim on that extra cash that the market apparently supports is the manufacturer, not the flipper and not the distributor.

Yeah the amount of vitriol is disproportionate to the subject matter here, and makes his replies less fun. Ah well, everyone has their bad days...

I'm fairly certain that this will be my most-downvoted post... but let me just start by saying I have never sold a spot or a pin.

I'm a bit confused about resentment here... I feel like there's a collective feeling that the selling of spots/pins should be virtuous, in that each person upstream in the sale of pin *deserves* to make a certain percentage/amount of fees that resulted in the final sale, i.e. profit from selling the spot should rightly go to the distributor, and not the person selling the spot; doing otherwise is... "scummy"(?)

...but the manufacturer is setting a price that they're asking for the machine, so they're being compensated by the distributor to the tune of what they've asked.
...the distributor is being asked to set a ceiling price by the manufacturer (if I'm understanding this correctly?) which they're aware of when they make a sale to a "scalper."
...the scalper is paying the deposit asked for by the distro.

Whether the scalper chooses to charge a profit doesn't appear to be a function of virtue, to me. It seems to be that the scalper's price would be determined by the market. If somebody is willing to pay $5000 for a $1000 deposit spot, then that's just the market functioning exactly how a market should. If $5000 is too high for the market to bear, then nobody buys, and the scalper is stuck with his deposit.

Either way, it seems to me that the manufacturer, distro, scalper and buyer are all going into this with eyes wide open, unless somebody is being misled? So short of that, I'm not certain why what the scalper is doing is... wrong? (I mean, it totally sucks for me as a buyer that I couldn't get on that list, and while i hope I find somebody willing to part with their deposit at face value, I don't BLAME those who sell it for more because of the rarity of the market...)

Am I missing part of the argument here? Legitimately asking, thanks...

Not really, I don't understand the angst either. I wouldn't sell a game to someone if I knew they're just going to flip it, but other than that I don't really care what other people do. Just surprised at the anger some folks have over it...

Totally agree with you here that MSRP is incorrectly set which is exactly why the distributors are the ones hurt in this equation (as well as the manufacturers who haven't quite kept their price hikes up at the pace of the market).

The margins would be more fairly and appropriately aligned to the distributor if the manufacturer simply caught up with the price hikes. The Distributors hands are tied from hiking the price unilaterally so they are stuck between a rock (price ceiling) and a hard place (watching scalpers capitalize on margins that should belong to the distributor).

Either Stern and others need to jack their prices up more or they need to take the cuffs off the distributors and allow for "market adjustments" like the auto industry does. That restores the balance and would eliminate ALL of the ill will that goes around in these threads all the time.

The ignore feature is so fantastic. I can't tell you how many times I see "Ignored user comment" and then I see certain names and I happily sigh knowing I don't have to read their shit anymore. More and more, I'm making great decisions and selections on who I ignore.

scalpers add insult to injury every time they call their distributor and say " Hey bud, I decided to pass on Godzilla LE but I did you a solid and found another buyer, here is their info, just ship it to them and we are all square, catch ya next time!" and at the same time pocket wads of cash for nothing but passing through the responsibility of delivery to a person who wasn't even the distributors customer.

Totally agree... though I imagine, manufacturers would find it against their interests to ease distributor restrictions.

It really is unfortunate that distros are "lethally middled" (*Deadwood quote) in this fashion...

But if they didn't pocket wads of cash, but rather passed on the spot for free, then is there now no injury? Even though the end result is exactly the same to the distributor?

...in which case was it actually injury? Or just the perception of injury?

I didn’t say that they don’t add value. But in my opinion, the manufacturer adds more value hence they should reap the reward.

What you list isn’t really valuable to the customer. What you list are risks and expenses. I could not care less, if a distributor travels to shows and sets up games. And dealing with difficult customers is part of the job (which doesn’t add value to me either as I am not anal about my pins). A flipper also has risks.

Distributors add value because they act as the contact for the customer and that’s why they make a cut. That’s the deal they have with their manufacturers. That doesn’t entitle them to extra free cash in my opinion.

That said, if the market supports 50% above MSRP and the manufacturer is dumb enough to not raise the MSRP then this windfall cash can end up with the distributor, the flipper or Santa Clause for all I care.

None of them deserves this more than the other.

That was my point. It’s preposterous to think this somehow “belongs” to the distributor. Nope.

Actually, the auto industry is going against this now. Ford and GM leading the way. They are telling dealers their future allotments will be much less if they continue to sell new calls over sticker.

A better fix for the hobby would be putting all the price whiners in a private room where they can hug it out and complain to each other about how life is so unfair.

I'm just curious if the OP has sold any of the 40 or so games in his "owned in the past" list for more than paid.

Buying a Premium version deposit for more, your example, seems like the buyer is trying to buy time, he/she doesn't want to wait as long as a new deposit down time wait would be. Premiums aren't quantity limited. So in a sense, the seller is selling something other than a deposit, he/she is selling a wait time truncation. I guess to some buyers it's worth it. Personally, I wait out all my new order wait times.

No downvotes from me! It's entirely a value judgement, and no one is ever going to convince another person to change their values.

I think the distinction that has been made a few times already about the intention when buying the spot and the reason for the sale is important to keep in mind. If you bought the spot with the intention to play the game, great. And if you end up selling the spot for whatever reason, change of mind, lack of space, obviously you're going to sell it for market value and it's not reasonable for anyone to get mad at you for that.

But the person whose only intention is to insert themselves as a completely unnecessary middle man and skim some profit off a product to which they are adding zero value? No, it's not their fault that an exploitable situation exists. Yes, it's a predictable market phenomenon. But you're never going to find a story where that rent seeker is the hero or is in any way admirable. You get nothing when you pay the higher price a rent seeker demands, other than getting them out of your way. If you paid the bridge troll before the billy goats threw him in the river, you didn't get a nicer, safer, more expedient bridge crossing experience. You just paid to get the troll out of your way. It's not entrepreneurial behavior, it's freeloading based on being big, strong, and scary in the case of the troll in the fable, and based on being successful at buying it first in the case of present day scalpers. Instead of using their time, talents, and energy to be doing or making something of actual value, they contribute nothing more than making money by getting in the way.

Again, these are just my values about what is a worthy way to spend one's life. Other people get to have their own values. And if you're like me, you live within an economic system that rewards having money more highly than it rewards doing/making - it's right in the name lol, so I'll probably be the one collecting downvotes!

And again, it's a bit silly in the context of luxury LE pinball machines, where rent-seeking behavior is at worst annoying. There are other contexts where it's downright harmful. But the principle is the same. I think it's at best gross to spend your brief time on earth rent seeking. We should try to do something worth remembering IMO.

So it seems like many of you think you can just get an LE of the next game buy calling and getting on a list? Go try and do it. While your at it go get yourself a Rolex Daytona, get on that list also and see which one comes first....