(Topic ID: 260440)

Demolition Man random power cycles

By Goferkid

4 years ago


Topic Heartbeat

Topic Stats

  • 27 posts
  • 9 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 4 years ago by Goferkid
  • No one calls this topic a favorite

You

Linked Games

Topic Gallery

View topic image gallery

IMG_5880 (resized).JPG
IMG_5879 (resized).JPG
IMG_5878 (resized).JPG
IMG_5877 (resized).JPG
#1 4 years ago

Hey guys, thanks so much for the help on my Paragon game!

Now I've got a Demo Man that started power cycling recently and is becoming more frequent. Happens first about 4-10 minutes into the first game after turning on.

Might be worth noting I replaced the ROM chip with one from another member of this forum who expanded the ruleset, and then after a couple months switched back to the original ROM chip and that's when it started happening. Not sure if that's related at all.

And a reminder that I'm a novice with repairs so bear with me please!

#2 4 years ago
Quoted from Goferkid:

Hey guys, thanks so much for the help on my Paragon game!
Now I've got a Demo Man that started power cycling recently and is becoming more frequent. Happens first about 4-10 minutes into the first game after turning on.
Might be worth noting I replaced the ROM chip with one from another member of this forum who expanded the ruleset, and then after a couple months switched back to the original ROM chip and that's when it started happening. Not sure if that's related at all.
And a reminder that I'm a novice with repairs so bear with me please!

Take a look into troubleshooting WPC 5V reset issues.

#3 4 years ago
Quoted from RatShack:

Take a look into troubleshooting WPC 5V reset issues.

Thanks! What's that? Maybe a link you know of that could help?

#4 4 years ago
Quoted from Goferkid:

Thanks! What's that? Maybe a link you know of that could help?

http://letmegooglethat.com/?q=WPC+reset+issues

#7 4 years ago

https://pinside.com/pinball/market/shops/1013-kahrus-circuits/00092-wpc-power-fix-daughterboard

Rob's circuit doesn't *fix* the problem, but it distributes the power such that it's should stop the reset from happening.

#8 4 years ago

Yeah that power fix board will do the trick if you cannot find the root cause.

#10 4 years ago

This is an awesome product for eliminating resets. However, it does require soldering.

https://www.ezsbc.com/index.php/featured-products-list-home-page/psu5.html#.XitylWipFGM

#11 4 years ago
Quoted from donjagra:

This is an awesome product for eliminating resets. However, it does require soldering.
https://www.ezsbc.com/index.php/featured-products-list-home-page/psu5.html#.XitylWipFGM

Note that it's usually best to actually go through the necessary troubleshooting steps first before replacing components to determine if it actually does need to be replaced.

#12 4 years ago
Quoted from ForceFlow:

Note that it's usually best to actually go through the necessary troubleshooting steps first before replacing components to determine if it actually does need to be replaced.

The reason there is an extensive troubleshooting guide for resets on WPC pins is because they have a terrible design for regulating the voltage. Modern electronics don't use heat sinks because they don't need them. All of the bridge rectifiers and over sized capacitors are needed on the driver board because of how crappy the LM323k regulator is. IMHO, all of the regulators need to be replaced at the first sign of problems because they are a design flaw (or just the best we had in the 90's). Once it is replaced, you will never reset again because there is no heat generated from the circuit and no voltage drops.

#13 4 years ago
Quoted from donjagra:

The reason there is an extensive troubleshooting guide for resets on WPC pins is because they have a terrible design for regulating the voltage. Modern electronics don't use heat sinks because they don't need them. All of the bridge rectifiers and over sized capacitors are needed on the driver board because of how crappy the LM323k regulator is. IMHO, all of the regulators need to be replaced at the first sign of problems because they are a design flaw (or just the best we had in the 90's). Once it is replaced, you will never reset again because there is no heat generated from the circuit and no voltage drops.

Yes, there are several components involved with power regulation, and the troubleshooting guide is intended to determine which component(s) are causing the problem. My point was that it isn't always the regulator itself. If it's outputting voltage that's out of spec, then by all means, replace it. However, if it's doing fine, then there's no reason to do so. Just coming out and saying "replace part x" is not the way to solve the reset problem. It's more complicated than just one component, so things need to be tested in a logical way, rather than just throwing new parts at the problem.

The psu5 is a good substitute, but it's not perfect. Linear regulators are electrically quiet, but generate significant heat. Switching regulators (like the psu5) operate cooler, but are electrically noisy, and can cause other issues down the line. For one thing, the psu5 is known to sometimes cause issues with sound.

#14 4 years ago
Quoted from ForceFlow:

My point was that it isn't always the regulator itself. If it's outputting voltage that's out of spec, then by all means, replace it. However, if it's doing fine, then there's no reason to do so. Just coming out and saying "replace part x" is not the way to solve the reset problem.

The regulators almost never fail, they just fail to provide a steady voltage out of the box and are being supported by components that are 30 years old. It is a single component that can be replaced in under ten minutes that will resolve reset issues. All the other components that are part of the reset check list are no longer an issue because they don't need to smooth the current.

I have never had or heard of any sound issues resulting from the PSU5.

I also fail to see how it's any different than suggesting using a $40 daughter board that only works half of the time.

#15 4 years ago

Every time people recommend that Kahr daughterboard, I hear a pinball machine somewhere physically explode.

Please, for the love of doing things right and not applying bandaids to amputations, STOP recommending it. It is not the right way to fix the root problem.

Take the time to learn why it is happening, diagnose it correctly, and fix it the right away.

#16 4 years ago
Quoted from donjagra:

I also fail to see how it's any different than suggesting using a $40 daughter board that only works half of the time.

I never recommend it for fixing the reset issue. I think it's an acceptible temporary measure and can assist with troubleshooting at times, but it's band aid fix. I always recommend that it's better to solve the actual source of the problem. I keep one in my toolkit when going to shows in case of an unexpected problem, but that's about it.

Quoted from donjagra:

I have never had or heard of any sound issues resulting from the PSU5.

There are quite a number of threads about psu5 issues.

Quoted from donjagra:

The regulators almost never fail,

That's why I'm suggesting that you should diagnose the issue first to see if it's actually a problem. You're jumping straight to a conclusion.

Quoted from donjagra:

they just fail to provide a steady voltage out of the box

Why do you say that? Yes, there can be some nominal variance of a couple hundredths of a volt, but nothing that would cause a problem.

Quoted from donjagra:

and are being supported by components that are 30 years old

Once again, I recommend going through the troubleshooting steps in order to figure out which component(s) are contributing to the reset issue. Shotgunning the board isn't really the correct approach.

Quoted from donjagra:

All the other components that are part of the reset check list are no longer an issue because they don't need to smooth the current.

Normally, reset issues aren't just caused by one thing. Thats why there is a procedure for testing everything in a logical manner. I'm very surprised to hear that replacing the same component on multiple wpc driver boards *always* fixes reset issues. Years ago, a similar conclusion happened where folks thought the issue was *always* caused by C5, but it wasn't.

#17 4 years ago
Quoted from ForceFlow:

Normally, reset issues aren't just caused by one thing.

Yes, they are always caused by one thing... low voltage.

#18 4 years ago
Quoted from donjagra:

Yes, they are always caused by one thing... low voltage.

Yes, the idea is to diagnose *why* the voltage drops.

#19 4 years ago
Quoted from ForceFlow:

Yes, the idea is to diagnose *why* the voltage drops.

If only there was a component that you could install that would provide a totally stable voltage that also allowed you to increase or decrease the voltage as needed.... Oh wait, I already provided the link.

#20 4 years ago
Quoted from donjagra:

If only there was a component that you could install that would provide a totally stable voltage that also allowed you to increase or decrease the voltage as needed.... Oh wait, I already provided the link.

If the circuit works properly...I had one of these on a PDB, and no matter how much you adjusted it the voltage dropped to 4.75 after 2-5 minutes.

#21 4 years ago
Quoted from donjagra:

If only there was a component that you could install that would provide a totally stable voltage that also allowed you to increase or decrease the voltage as needed.... Oh wait, I already provided the link.

Like I said, there are several components involved with voltage regulation on the WPC driver board. Yes, the regulator is a significant component, but it's not the only thing that contributes to voltage drops. If solving the issue was that easy, and all reset issues could be solved by replacing only one component, then the troubleshooting guide wouldn't be necessary. Unfortunately, that's not the case.

#22 4 years ago

OP, you see what we are getting at? Fix it right. Do your homework, determine the problem, and fix it the right way.

1 month later
#23 4 years ago

Thanks guys. Lots of good stuff here to consider. I'll definitely start with the game reset troubleshooting guides.

Wanted to mention one thing though to see if it points things in a certain direction. The resetting has gotten worse and now it resets every single time the left flipper button is pressed. So basically, start a game, ball comes down, press the left flipper button, reset. Right flipper button will not cause a reset.

Does that narrow things down at all by chance before I start at the top of the troubleshooting list?

Thanks.

#24 4 years ago
Quoted from Goferkid:

Thanks guys. Lots of good stuff here to consider. I'll definitely start with the game reset troubleshooting guides.
Wanted to mention one thing though to see if it points things in a certain direction. The resetting has gotten worse and now it resets every single time the left flipper button is pressed. So basically, start a game, ball comes down, press the left flipper button, reset. Right flipper button will not cause a reset.
Does that narrow things down at all by chance before I start at the top of the troubleshooting list?
Thanks.

Alright, I took a browse through that reset troubleshooting guide after writing that last post and saw that the diodes on the flipper coils can cause the reset so I took a look at the 2 left flippers in the game and the diode solder points look decent to me but the coil for the upper left flipper looks very unusual to me...

IMG_5877 (resized).JPGIMG_5877 (resized).JPGIMG_5878 (resized).JPGIMG_5878 (resized).JPGIMG_5879 (resized).JPGIMG_5879 (resized).JPGIMG_5880 (resized).JPGIMG_5880 (resized).JPG
#25 4 years ago

Went into the tests to do a solenoid and coil test but none of the solenoids or coils are firing in the test modes...

#26 4 years ago

Close the coin door or enable the high voltage interlock switch.

#27 4 years ago
Quoted from DumbAss:

Close the coin door or enable the high voltage interlock switch.

Your name is "dumbass"... What are you trying to say...

Did a little more browsing and saw that someone suggested re-seating the Z connector between the gray wires coming off of the WPC board and magically.... that fixed it. Played for 20 minutes with no problems. Thanks guys!

Promoted items from Pinside Marketplace and Pinside Shops!
$ 45.00
Lighting - Interactive
86Pixels
 
$ 79.00
Lighting - Under Cabinet
Arcade Upkeep
 
4,600
Machine - For Sale
Ponte Vedra Beach, FL
From: $ 209.00
$ 39.99
Lighting - Led
Mitchell Lighting
 
$ 40.00
Cabinet - Other
Rocket City Pinball
 
$ 10.00
Playfield - Decals
Metal-Mods
 
$ 18.00
Playfield - Protection
Volcano Pinball
 
From: $ 17.99
Eproms
Matt's Basement Arcade
 
4,690 (Firm)
Machine - For Sale
La Porte, TX
$ 35.00
Cabinet - Other
Rocket City Pinball
 
$ 95.00
Cabinet - Sound/Speakers
Pinball Mod Co.
 
$ 109.95
Electronics
PinSound
 
$ 37.50
$ 72.95
3,250
Machine - For Sale
Bethlehem, PA
$ 18.95
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
ULEKstore
 
From: $ 17.99
Eproms
Matt's Basement Arcade
 
$ 85.00
$ 329.99
Lighting - Other
Lighted Pinball Mods
 
$ 30.00
Playfield - Other
YouBentMyWookie
 
From: $ 27.00
Boards
KAHR.US Circuits
 
$ 9.95
Eproms
Pinballrom
 
$ 35.95
Lighting - Led
Mitchell Lighting
 
4,850 (OBO)
Machine - For Sale
Lee's Summit, MO
$ 81.95

Reply

Wanna join the discussion? Please sign in to reply to this topic.

Hey there! Welcome to Pinside!

Donate to Pinside

Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run without any 3rd-party banners or ads, thanks to the support from our visitors? Please consider a donation to Pinside and get anext to your username to show for it! Or better yet, subscribe to Pinside+!


This page was printed from https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/demolition-man-random-power-cycles and we tried optimising it for printing. Some page elements may have been deliberately hidden.

Scan the QR code on the left to jump to the URL this document was printed from.