(Topic ID: 276180)

Demolition man ground short

By dbb143

3 years ago


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  • 32 posts
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  • Latest reply 3 years ago by dbb143
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#1 3 years ago

so I have been loving my demo man and modded it quite a bit (color dmd, lots of custom lighting, home roms, custom time delay police light topper, etc.). I was devastated to turn it on after soldering in the leads for my latest project (adding a home built shaker) to get a ground short row 1 message. I have read the most common threads diagnosing the handles (j205, j209 connections) to no avail. It seems to somehow have multiple row ground shorts suddenly.

Rows 1 through 7 all list as ground short in test report along with claw motor error (on start up, the claw just makes a short electrical grunt noise and doesn't move, or move all the way towards back only). 24 (always closed) reads row short. 37 not used reads row short. 75 not used reads row short.

The following switches work in test:

Left and right coins d1 & d3
All test switches
18 Right outlane*** (shows open, then when closed it reads as row short)
28 not used shows open
The standups***(same as r outlane show short when activated)
48 Right loop***same
68 not used shows open
88 Lower rebound***
F1 r flip eos works fine
F2 r flip but works
F3 l flip eos works
F4 l flip but works
F6 ur flip but (on handle) works fine
F7 ul flip eos works
F8 ul flip but (handle) works

Also, looking at the cpu board, there are 3 red leds: d19, d20, d21 (top to bottom). D19 is not lit, d20 is flickering, d21 appears lit (though dimly maybe, see pic). Light are right to left in pic.

Any help would be greatly appreciated as this is my favorite machine and I miss it already.

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#2 3 years ago

Edit: forgot to mention the first thing I tried was removing all the wiring I had added (of which 95% had been extensively tested and was working perfect for many games). No dice.

#3 3 years ago

UPDATE: In test mode, the claw will move left and right, but it is allowed to move outside of the normal range (i.e.: run into side of cabinet). Could bad opto board on the claw cause this ground short issue or am I grasping at straws?

#4 3 years ago

When it's so many rows it sounds like it is a board issue.
If you go to the menu Test->Switch Edges, with all the four cables disconnected from the bottom of the CPU board (J206/J207, J208/J209, J205 and J212.). Then no switch shall be affected. If J205 and J212 are connected, only switch 24 shall be closed in the switch matrix (See picture below how the matrix shall look like, with a square only on position 24.), if you have one or more whole rows/colums closed it's a problem on the CPU-board. U20 (and sometimes also U14) when it's columns. U18 if it's one or more of rows 1 to 4, and U19 row 5 to 8.
Switch 24 closed (resized).pngSwitch 24 closed (resized).png

#5 3 years ago

So checked this morning (thank you Classe for the response) and got some odd behavior. With all unplugged, nothing is closed (including 24). See first pic. With j212 and j207 in, rows 1 and 4 are closed (2nd pic). With j207 and j209 in, all rows 1 to 7 are closed. How do I even go about systematically finding the wiring issue? Thank you again.

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#6 3 years ago

With power off, measure resistance from U20 pin 9 to 10. If it is less than 1 meg ohms, then U20 is toast. Normally, it measures 3 meg ohms. I suspect it will measure about 300 ohms, which is bad.

#7 3 years ago

Yes, it sounds like U20. It's not always you see the problem in the displayed switch matrix in Test->Switch edges.
You can also test the CPU-board when you disconnect all the cables at the bottom of the CPU-board (J206/J207, J208/J209, J205 and J212.). Go in to Tests->Switch Edges, and then short-circuit pin 1 on connector J207 to pin 1 on J209 with a cable, and see if you only get switch 11 affected, or the whole row.
If the whole row is affected, then the problem is on the CPU-board, and probably it is a broken U20.

#8 3 years ago

Could be a problem with the CPU switch matrix but also check the cabinet switches such as sw. #11, #12, #14, #21

Disconnect switches and/or check (pinched) wires
DM cab switches.jpgDM cab switches.jpg

#9 3 years ago

you unplugged and plugged in connectors but you need to test the switch matrix on the board with them unplugged

#10 3 years ago
Quoted from PinballManiac40:

With power off, measure resistance from U20 pin 9 to 10. If it is less than 1 meg ohms, then U20 is toast. Normally, it measures 3 meg ohms. I suspect it will measure about 300 ohms, which is bad.

So assuming I'm wrapping around for pin 10 (1st pic), I'm reading .012 on my meter set to 2M (2nd pic). Assuming U20 is toast, everyone agree? Are there any other chips I should check while I'm doing this (and how to check them)? Are there specific things I may have done that caused u20 to fail? Thank you

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#11 3 years ago

Those are pins 1 and 18. Measure the other end 2 pins. 9 is top left and 10 is bottom left

#12 3 years ago
Quoted from PinballManiac40:

Those are pins 1 and 18. Measure the other end 2 pins. 9 is top left and 10 is bottom left

Thank you PinballManiac40

Using correct locations now reading 0.022 with meter set to 2k, so 22 ohms? Just for clarity, I am measuring with all the "j" connectors removed (not sure if that makes any difference).

#13 3 years ago

Makes no difference if all the connectors are plugged in not. U20 sounds extremely shorted. Replace it and see what happens. Good thing it is in an IC socket already.

Working on a game while power is on is how this commonly shorts out. There are many different voltages running under the playfield, so if you short a switch to anything like a GI lamp socket, flasher socket, or coil power, you may or not see a spark that will kill U20.

#14 3 years ago

R71 (column 5 pull-up) is burnt so there is definitely (still) a short to a power source. Be sure to find that befor replacing U20.

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#15 3 years ago

I see an issue that looks like took out the U20 in this case. The resistor I marked in yellow is burnt. So you have something shorted on that column. So need to inspect those switches closely for anything shorting to anything like GI lamp socket, flasher socket, or coil, or anything metal.

Also, I have marked areas of concern in pink that look like potential battery corrosion. I say concern, because it just may be the angle of light on these areas when the picture was taken.

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#16 3 years ago
Quoted from zaza:

R71 (column 5 pull-up) is burnt so there is definitely (still) a short to a power source. Be sure to find that befor replacing U20.
[quoted image]

Beat me to it by 10 seconds!!!

#17 3 years ago

Awesome and thanks guys. Any idea best place to source u20 chip and that resistor in US? Going to dig into shirring issue. Any chance that column is related to the right ramp flasher? Having trouble deciphering the flasher stuff. That one had never worked correctly for me.

#18 3 years ago

Found the resistors. New question. Is the Toshiba ULN2803APG the same as the ST ULN2803A?

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#20 3 years ago

Heard of people getting fake electronic parts, i.e. DOA from Amazon.

#21 3 years ago
Quoted from PinballManiac40:

Heard of people getting fake electronic parts, i.e. DOA from Amazon.

I'll let you know my mileage then with these.

Am I missing something or is there no detailed schematics or wiring diagram for the cpu board on the manual? Looking for the diagrams like I found for the 8-driver board on pages 128 & 129 (3-24 & 3-25). Really just want to increase my own knowledge and understanding to verify how you guys know that R71 is tied to column 5?

Thanks again for all the advice as I'm learning a ton.

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#22 3 years ago

Detailed board schematics are in a separate repair manual.

#23 3 years ago
Quoted from PinballManiac40:

Detailed board schematics are in a separate repair manual.

Thank you PinballManiac40 found it!

#24 3 years ago

Update: I just found a common link to something I need to try and check. I think I shorted out the diode on switch 54 (upper rebound) and plan to check when I get home. Would this cause the column 5 frying of the resistor (and subsequently U20)?

#25 3 years ago

Shorted the switch diode to what?

As I mentioned earlier, problem likely be a switch shorted to a completely different voltage/circuit such as a coil, insert lamp, GI lamp, flasher lamp.

A quick accidentally short while working on a game with power on is not likely to burn the resistor. It would be something that is shorted constantly and a longer period of time.

Every switch in column 5 needs to be inspected.

#26 3 years ago
Quoted from PinballManiac40:

Shorted the switch diode to what?

There's a diode on the connection for switch 54 under the playfield (it's a leaf switch). I think I had a crossed current from high power coil circuit hit it by mistake.

Quoted from PinballManiac40:

Every switch in column 5 needs to be inspected.

Definitely will do.

#27 3 years ago
Quoted from dbb143:

There's a diode on the connection for switch 54 under the playfield (it's a leaf switch). I think I had a crossed current from high power coil circuit hit it by mistake

That sounds like a quick accidental short. Hopefully that is all, but from my experience, I hadn't seen a quick accidental short cause a burnt resistor.

#28 3 years ago
Quoted from PinballManiac40:

That sounds like a quick accidental short. Hopefully that is all, but from my experience, I hadn't seen a quick accidental short cause a burnt resistor.

In the spirit of full disclosure and owning up to my boneheaded mistakes in the hopes of learning from them as much as possible, I originally had hooked up a poorly designed circuit to trigger my homemade shaker motor project. I have a switching relay that closes when it gets signal from the desired source and sends a 12v trigger signal to a time delay relay that runs the motor (same idea for the police light topper). My problem here was I was now looking to relay trigger from multiple sources, and didn't realize until afterward that I would need a separate trigger relay for each source to keep their circuits independent and isolated (doh doh doh, I know). Basically wired the pop bumpers to that leaf switch on 54 and I'm sure turning the game on at that point certainly did some level of this damage.

Again, I am not ashamed of admitting my stupid mistakes and it has forced me into a situation where I am exponentially increasing my knowledge of working on these machines.

#29 3 years ago

Well, great. I would had only guessed this was a stock game with an issue.

If you had already disconnected that other circuit, then U20 may be the only issue.

#30 3 years ago

New u20 and new resistor at r71 and we're up and running again! Diode on switch 54 checked ok. Started to uncover my right upper ramp flasher issue as previous owner had the J3 cable plugged into J109 on the power board! New issue is the right handle button (launch) seems to be stuck closed and there are several flashers that are just remaining lit like GI. After this though, I'm confident I'll be able to rectify those correctly. Thank you everyone for all the advice and help. I think i did ok for my first ever PCB repair.

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#31 3 years ago

Playball!!

#32 3 years ago

Since you guys were such an awesome resource here (PinballManiac40 and zaza especially), any chance you'd take a quick peek at my 8-driver board flashers issue:

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/demolition-man-8-driver-board-flasher-on-issue

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