Snap!

No excuse....who owns the company and sends that BS out?

The reason so many people have pre ordered WOZ is because of things like this from Stern!

This is funny.. If you think JJP walks on water,you might be a fool..

Jim

Exactly. He is what some would call "a Professional."

Well said sir. I think people are jumping the gun a bit. Lets wait till the release to critique the quality of the new JJP machine please.

Your a idiot!!

Not well said as it misses the point. JJP may release a turd (but I doubt it). That doesnt change the fact that many are willing to give him a chance because the other option continues to disappoint.

We'll find out soon enough how the products compare, but if Stern was filling the need, JJP wouldn't exist.

-Craig

The entire reason that JJP exists is because Gary shot down Jack when Jack went to him and proposed building a better quality machine.

I have to agree to disagree with you there. That is like saying if HP made good enough computers no one else would. Just does not make sense in an open market like ours. But like I said I can always agree to disagree.

And like it or not the fact remains Stern stuck with pinball when no one else did for more than a decade. Some respect is due. I agree 100% they need to step up on quality control but to totally bash em and embrace someone that has never made a machine before with open arms is a bit confusing to a pinball enthusiast like myself.

Not True, My Autobots has the same issue.

The fact that nobody caught this issue is a little disturbing when you are using it as a selling point for the LE's. They could have easily offered the games with bad signatures up at a discount & i'm sure they would have sold easily & the owners wouldnt have a thing to gripe about. But just pushing them out with all the issues these LE's are having is just poor business when you are charging the kinda money they are for them.

Sounds like the rare ones are the ones that were done correctly, total bummer........

Those damn Decepticons... Always trying to start $#!t.

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I would be happy to take anyones "defective" machine and play that signature right off the PF! (Yes, even the clearcoat too! )

Did I say he walked on water? I just expect better quality......

I'm thinking you might be the fool....Jim

Maybe you missed the point Dude.....in hopes of making a better, higher quality pinball machine like JJP has promised, he has pre sold 1,000 units...if he doesn't do it, he'll pay the price on number 2...

We KNOW what Stern does.......

I do not think that is a good example. Everyone has a computer these days or two or three. That cannot be said at all for a pinball machine. How many people actually own a pinball machine? Maybe .01% of the population? How many own a computer? 75% or more. They are completely different markets.

Jack himself has said many times that he started JJP because he had customers but no product. Surely there were other reasons, but you can't discount this a big contributor.

Stern deserves no more (or less) respect than their product dictates. Collectors kept Stern afloat for years while Gary thumbed his nose at this community. I personally bought several NIB sterns during the "collectors are not my customers" period. I'm not bashing anyone but i dont feel I owe Stern anything either. If they continue back on the path to full featured games, and clean up the quality, I may be a customer again.

-Craig

I'm feeling a little sorry for taking the bait earlier...

I don't care much for Stern-bashing, but the whole nature of this thread and complaint seems so crazy in a way. Then again, I don't know the entire mentality a NIB-owner. We do know this game is certainly not Rolling Stones. If I look at the Stern website, I think the overall issue may be a sense of disappointment in the whole-2500 dollar upgrade from Pro, not in just the signature. And the signature has become sort of an emblem of that disappointment for some owners. Those other issues sound like air-balls, a disappointing mini-playfield, thin decals on the cabinet, and minor other things that have got to irk people who paid 2,500 dollars more for a Special LE version.

I think players like Stern in general for keeping pinball alive during a rough time. Collectors have more a love-hate relationship because the true gems are few and far between, and they end up shelling out cash for games that don't get remembered as the greats of an era.

I recently watched quite a few of the Jersey Jack and Gary Stern lecture videos. And I would say that they are very informative, and most of it comes down to business. I think as observers from a message board we have this Clash of the Titans mentality like it's fantasy football. But in reality, it's all about money, and manufacturing costs, and stuff like that.

I don't think it's too wild an idea that in 2012 we have two manufacturers, two manufacturing plants, and two or more awesome pinballs shipping from Stern and Jersey Jack.

I don't think it's too wild an idea that if WOZ keeps getting delayed, and the 6.5 million kickstart can't pay employees, buy all the parts, and build a factory, that JJP could subcontract WOZ.

I think this is a time of upheaval and change in the pinball industry that might result in two viable companies, or two bankrupt ones, having cannibalized niche markets.

That's why I think a lot of the complaints/flames on this board seems to be one sided - people saying I hate the WOZ theme, I hate Stern, etc, and not thinking about pinball living and dying as a whole sport that pretty much will always need new machines to be made and enjoyed.

I'd be upset mainly because Gomez's signature is so cool looking, I'd want it out in the open. Some people prefer it hidden. Frankly, I'd ask for a signed replacement translite and be done with it.

In the end, the signature isn't going to affect price.. you can get parts signed all the time. The limited run vs. demand will set the price. *IF* The signature does come into play with value, it certainly wouldn't be a dealbreaker IMO.

It just looks so weird with the signature only partially exposed. I'd rather have it completely hidden than the way it is. And I disagree that it won't affect resale value. These are limited edition machines. It's not like there are thousands of them out there. Once these games start hitting the secondary market, the ones with the messed up signatures will definitely be worth less in the eyes of many collectors.

So what's the main source of airballs in TF and how does it happen? Is it just launching into the air coming off the drop target? If so, Sopranos used to do that, the fix is to take all of the empty space out of the target plastic itself by filling it in with epoxy which takes much of the flex out of it.

They should probably start making this kind of drop target slightly curved outwards towards the top. Target bends back, ball is against a flat or down-angled surface still, instead of one that now reflects it into the air.

Quality is everything, no matter what you buy. If Jack knocks it out of the park with WOZ and the quality is good, The Hobbit will sell out super quick. The moment the Hobbit pre-order list is created I will be in, IF there are no huge problems with WOZ. He is also giving the same numbers to those who bought WOZ so if it is a mega success it might be quite difficult to get a Hobbit LE.

That is freaking ridiculous! Gomez is the designer, that is unacceptable! And to think I was starting to respect Stern again... who knows how many people have this problem?

Bingo.....

If WOZ flunks the test....then it's oh well....but I doubt it, you have to have a big pair of balls to call your shot on WOZ as a game changer....and then not live up to it....

As for Stern, I love the SM and will buy one when the right opportunity pops up because it's a great game......

Stern better start worrying about how many people will jump on the JJP train if WOZ is a huge success and pissing the individual collector off doesn't seem wise to me.....

JJP is going to have lots of problems just because they are using a new platform.

Just like the first model year of a new car, once the vehicle gets out "into the wild", problems crop up. It does not mean that it is not a "quality" vehicle, it just means that some things work better on paper than the real world.

And before everyone starts crying like babies, I'm not picking on JJP.

Even the beloved Williams had plenty of mistakes in every game; and that was with a mature platform, with a mature design team.

Anyone remember how many stuck balls MM had back in the day? On top of the castle, on the dragons back....?

Thanks !

Jim

I agree, there is no reason the signature on these should be incorrect but it was signed by Gomez and being human makes him prone to mistakes of all kinds. I think the Stern bashing is a little overboard imo. Stern is trying to make profit in a dieing industry and hes a cheap ass for a reason right?

Come on Jimbo, no offense, just a little tit for tat!

I really don't think you'd feel that way if it was you on the receiving end of an LE that you just dropped $6500 on and out of the box it's screwed up......When you make a product, I don't care what it is, if the quality control stinks be prepared to suffer the consequences....that's business...

That said, it wouldn't stop me from buying a machine I really like!

The QC at Stern has never been very good.

It also don't think people are being that harsh. Buying a "limited edition" item implies that it is special and I think that Stern really went with that as a selling point. They used such things as a signature to market this product as a collector item. The fact that a very limited amount of these models were made they should have dotted every I and crossed every T.

I don't know that JJP will save pinball, I do think that they understand the collector market 100x better than Stern. Stern has always viewed themselves as a provider for the coin op industry and not for collectors/home owners so this big leap into the collector world obviously was a stretch for them. People slinging money for a product that is described as a limited edition collector item are expecting someone special. This is a notion developed not just in the head of the consumer but by Stern themselves.

When Stern was heavily criticized for incomplete code they always got a pass as not a caterer to home owners. They have now put themselves in that realm and are the first pinball company to do so. It will be interesting to see how this affects their future sales. I can see it being a huge deterrent to them marketing games as they did with TF, i.e., buy first, play later. If people actually wait and see what the product is before buying I would truly expect them to tighten up their QC.

First off let me be clear I am not letting Stern of the hook so to speak. However from the forum here in general it seems and has always seemed to me that people want them to fail and that Williams games are the holy grail. I get the feeling that people are hoping JJP is the next coming and I hope they are ( I ordered WOZ), but as The Dude Abides has said many times Stern kept the game going when all others decided it was not worth their while to make games for a dying market and put out some wonderful titles to boot like LOTR, SM, Ripley's, TSPP and so on. If Stern goes under and JJP fails that is really the end of pinball for all intents and purposes, as no one will make new games in any quantity which is really what this hobby needs. I look forward to new titles coming out and pondering if I should move on one or not. I own several Stern and Williams games some NIB and restored and some not, and I personally have no issues with my stern titles, My Williams games have more nagging issues like switches and the like that need more repair more often. I think it does suck the name is covered up and in retrospect maybe they shouldn't have signed the palyfield but rather do a plaque or something or even nothing which would render this moot. I wonder if people wouldn't have moved on these games if they were not signed , but they did sign them trying to make a better experience, bring the player closer to the designer. When I think about it, it is pretty cool to have the name on the playfield, clear coated, free from wear in the home environment, but personally the signature there or not doesn't matter to me as much as game play does. I didn't get into this hobby to make money or as an investment. I got into it to enjoy pinball once more and to keep it going. I just want to say I have dealt with Stern a couple of times. On my NIB LOTR for example I had a bad DMD and board. They sent me new ones right away, and even had the old board repaired and sent to me as a spare. I hope they will solve the problem to your satisfaction and hopefully Stern learned something from this too. Good luck.

Just because someone is the only person producing an item, doesn't let them off the hook for shoddy craftsmanship, lack of QC, or otherwise failing to live up to expectations based on representation, promise and price. Plain and simple: if you want to produce $7000 Limited Edition pinball machines, your clientele has every right to demand that you have completed the code, you have worked out issues like air balls and trapped balls, and that you get the signatures right. If you can't do that, then stop making the autographs a selling point.

I don't hold Stern to any higher standard than I do anyone else that I buy a high ticket item from. I am not buying a car that needs tweaks, repairs and updates to run right. Nor am I paying a premium for any selling point that is half assed. If that is asking too much out of Gary Stern, then he needs to go back to producing lower priced games with few bells and whistles.

Got it and I have pretty thick skin and this is a Stern thread to boot ,so I have no business being here in the first place.

The internet makes me dizzy.

Jim

I was thinking the exact same thing.

Nobody wants Stern to fail. People just don't want to drop a lot of coin on games that seem to always have avoidable issues. Note most of the people bitching OWN sterns. I don't, I have and will again.

Any collector, player, hobbyist has it in their best interest to seen Stern succeed. I personally think with TF they may have really hurt their relationship with a lot of potential sight unseen buyers.