(Topic ID: 227365)

Deadpeel


By wolfemaaan

8 months ago



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  • Latest reply 7 months ago by king-pin
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    There are 357 posts in this topic. You are on page 7 of 8.
    #301 7 months ago
    Quoted from vid1900:

    Wow, Monsanto, just clocking in on these Corn Plants

    a "corngument"??

    #302 7 months ago

    This is a pretty subjective topic... one mans dipples is another man craters and vice versa... I don’t see anyone convincing anyone that old is better than new or new is as good as old or better, or new is better than old ever was, or there is no difference between new or old.

    And I think there is something to be said about quality of designs and the attention to detail that has been lost from the designers of old to the designers of new. I dont think cratering in playfields was a big deal until they took the ball into the third dimension with ramps and multiple levels (thanks Black Knight) and that up until this point the only thing they worried about was that everything was 0.53125” off the table surface or slightly higher so it reduced airballs. This was just the normal mindset, the designers just had a feel for reducing wear and tear from all their experience.

    Now the ball is traveling in ways the old designers (of flatwoods) never envisioned because they realized the destructive force of a 3 once chunk of steel traveling at flipper bat speeds could destroy the guts of a playfield if the energy wasn't handled correctly. I dont see a lot of “designed to take the heat” thinkology behind the latest modern pins and I think it shows up in all the airball damage we now see as dimples or craters. So maybe all those flatwoods and single level machines didnt have all the cottage cheese (like we remember) and its only after 30 years of recent cratered history we are coming around to accepting dimples or craters as part of modern pinball.

    How is TNA or WN:BJM holding up? Any craters on those playfields?

    -1
    #303 7 months ago
    Quoted from Bublehead:

    How is TNA or WN:BJM holding up? Any craters on those playfields?

    Plenty of dimpling on the ones I've serviced.

    Quoted from Bublehead:

    I dont see a lot of “designed to take the heat” thinkology behind the latest modern pins and I think it shows up in all the airball damage we now see as dimples or craters.

    You got to open your eyes.

    Think of how playfield magnets now have replaceable stainless steel cores that emerge from the wood.

    In the 90s, designers were simply allowing the ball to chew through the wood, right down to the core (like The Shadow).

    #304 7 months ago
    Quoted from Bublehead:

    This is a pretty subjective topic... one mans dipples is another man craters and vice versa.

    Not really. Dimpling exists. Cratering exists. They are two different things. One is normal, the other is not.

    #305 7 months ago

    Get your classifications straight.

    You can't have a meaningful discussion unless everyone is using the same terminology

    11f396c4f32ccc1d72fa2a8546d76fca428841c5 (resized).jpg
    #306 7 months ago

    vid1900, I get you, yeah, they do things to help prevent noticable damage, and they do things to limit actual damage, and then they don’t do things because the cost is more than the trouble is worth. Providing Cliffies, ramp guards, and any other condom you might like to place on the playfield have only been incorporated due to the HUO and collectors crying their exspensive toys were getting chipped and their value reduced... how many ops out there are now looking at their routed machines as a source of income post use? There was a day when the fate of poor cast off carcasses of machines which had been routed to death was the dumpster, not Craigslist. And us players were happy to find those carcases and breath a little life back into them and get them running again and then if we sold them, maybe get $300 bucks, tops.

    Now people look at dimples and craters and go “My god, there has got to be something wrong with this!, I put this machine on site 3 days and nobody is going to think its worth the $6000 I paid for it NIB once they see these craters!”

    If the craters bother you too much, do what I did 20 years ago. Get a NOS playfield and put it in your pinball closet... play the phuck out of your machine. If you ever decide to get rid of it, sell the whole thing to some nube, telling him a playfield swap is nothing, You‘ve done plenty and anyone could do it.

    #307 7 months ago
    Quoted from vid1900:

    Did it hurt the first time?


    How did you know?

    #308 7 months ago
    Quoted from Bublehead:

    Now people look at dimples and craters and go “My god, there has got to be something wrong with this!, I put this machine on site 3 days and nobody is going to think its worth the $6000 I paid for it NIB once they see these craters!”

    Only nubies would think that.

    An experienced op is going to already be familiar with all the dimples, cracked ramps and worn wood.

    There is only something wrong if the coinbox is empty.

    -2
    #310 7 months ago

    Well I'm know I'm gonna get told I'm wrong. Or my observations try to be dismissed by being called a "noob". Or anyone's else's for that matter.
    But in the 20 years I've been collecting pins and the 35+ years I've been playing them.
    I haven't seen this level of dimpling in a new pin HUO or routed untill 2013.

    But I guess my eyes, and any other "noobs" eyes. Or local operators eyes I have talked to have been lying.

    Games are for fun, not to show how mentally retarded you are. When some continuously proclaim themselves to be an ALMIGHTY expert on pinball. And belittle, ignore observations and dismiss facts, opinions or photographic evidence.

    That just a screams "fanboy".
    With a flat earth mentality.

    #311 7 months ago
    Quoted from erak:

    But in the 20 years I've been collecting pins and the 35+ years I've been playing them.
    I haven't seen this level of dimpling in a new pin HUO or routed untill 2013.

    Ghost Hunters gets lots of viewers on TV too. If you have evidence to support your claims let's see it.

    #312 7 months ago

    You can always find opinions and **evidence** to back up your existing beliefs - that does not make your beliefs any more correct.

    You always have to look at **who** is giving their opinion, then add or subtract weight to what they tell you.

    If 100 actual climatologists tell you that the average earth temp is getting warmer, that might have more weight than a "scientist" telling you the earth has hot and cold weather on cable news.

    If a BMW combustion engineer tells you not to put gasoline containing alcohols into your engine, that might have more weight than the mechanic at the service station telling you "A little alcohol cleans your engine and sensors".

    If 73 studies show that Vitamin C does not cure the common cold any faster, that might have more weight than one quack doctor on a book tour.

    If all real operators (you know those guys who do coinop for a full time living with 100s of machines) say that pins have always dimpled, that may have more weight than a hobby operator who has 8 clownpuke pins.

    If every person who restores playfields full time says that all games dimple, that might have more weight than a guy who says he "absolutely remembers" being in an arcade 30 years ago, and games never had dimples.

    #313 7 months ago

    .....And if old playfields all had some kind of magical properties, then why are 95% of them in need of restoration or replacement? People are BEGGING for replacement playfields for just about every title from Williams, Bally and Gottlieb.

    #314 7 months ago

    But how many ops are begging for a replacement pf because the dipples are so really bad? I dont remember hearing an op replaced a pf due to a few dimples. Usually by the time an op replaces a pf, the dimples are gone because so is the wood!
    But I think most pf swaps in the hobby (note the word hobby) are due to cosmetics more these days than how it plays. Most pf swaps for ops were (historically) due to the artwork is missing, the inserts are falling out, or are so heat warped and shrunk the ball does a St. Vitus’s Dance every time it rolls over one. Now catch me if I am wrong here, but that carny twist the ball takes and rolls SDTM has been known to be the cause of someone throwing their beer through the backglass, and one real good reason a good op will swap out pf’s when they are shot. Else thats when they hit the dumpster or go up on craigslist, usually AFTER the beer has gone through the backglass or a pitcher of beer went through the playfield glass. Seen too many pins end up at the auctions missing the BG or full of tiny squares of tempered glass all over the playfield, in the cabinet, and in the coin box, which still had the smell of stale beer wafting from it. Was it the carny twist or just a bar room fight? Who can say for any particular machine, but I have personally witnessed both.

    #315 7 months ago
    Quoted from Bublehead:

    But how many ops are begging for a replacement pf because the dipples are so really bad?

    Has never happened, because real ops know dimples are totally normal.

    Quoted from Bublehead:

    Usually by the time an op replaces a pf, the dimples are gone because so is the wood!

    Real ops never replaced a playfield, even if it was worn to bare wood.

    You've got to remember that replacement playfieds were not commonly available until well into the 2000s

    When I went to Bally School, we were literally instructed that these games were designed to last 3 years.

    Quoted from Bublehead:

    Now catch me if I am wrong here, but that carny twist the ball takes and rolls SDTM has been known to be the cause of someone throwing their beer through the backglass, and one real good reason a good op will swap out pf’s when they are shot.

    Never happened.

    If a new game's playfield developed a twist, Bally would send a populated playfield to your distro in a wooden crate.

    No op would ever take the time to swap and re-populate a playfield itself.

    If an older game warped, you took the boards out, maybe the kept the backglass if you liked the art, and simply put the game in the dumpster.

    #316 7 months ago
    Quoted from vid1900:

    You can always find opinions and **evidence** to back up your existing beliefs - that does not make your beliefs any more correct.
    You always have to look at **who** is giving their opinion, then add or subtract weight to what they tell you.
    If 100 actual climatologists tell you that the average earth temp is getting warmer, that might have more weight than a "scientist" telling you the earth has hot and cold weather on cable news.
    If a BMW combustion engineer tells you not to put gasoline containing alcohols into your engine, that might have more weight than the mechanic at the service station telling you "A little alcohol cleans your engine and sensors".
    If 73 studies show that Vitamin C does not cure the common cold any faster, that might have more weight than one quack doctor on a book tour.
    If all real operators (you know those guys who do coinop for a full time living with 100s of machines) say that pins have always dimpled, that may have more weight than a hobby operator who has 8 clownpuke pins.
    If every person who restores playfields full time says that all games dimple, that might have more weight than a guy who says he "absolutely remembers" being in an arcade 30 years ago, and games never had dimples.

    Exactly!

    That's where your argument is flawed.
    You keep stating that people are saying old games don't dimple (which sounds crazy) to defend your argument. No one has said they 100% don't. All games will dimple. Just not at the same speed or severity. How many plays? Where is the comparison?

    Show me any pre 2013 HUO machine or even routed with an accurate number of plays. Compare it to a new Stern HUO or routed with the same number.

    They will all have some playfield issues. But it will be obvious which ones are far worse.

    #317 7 months ago

    This has no relevance at this point. Your’re gonna have to wait 10-20 years to really make this relavent...old to new. We are in an uncharted era. Pinball has never been home use until now...in large amounts. This argument is mute. But, the argument will continue, because people love to argue...any argument? If there is...I am correct...people love to argue.

    #318 7 months ago

    vid1900, So I guess all those blank NOS playfields I saw the operators buying at the operators auctions and trading amounst themselves were merely for looks, huh? Wall art?, or are there any other memories you are going to tell me I don’t have, because, I have quite a few. By the way they bid on those things, hell you would swear they were made out of someth8ng other than wood. This was back in the 90’s and I saw all kinds of NOS stuff roll through there then, and yep, a lot of small ops did playfield swaps. More often big ops pulled the whole playfields and put them in a better cabinet, or canibalize it for parts and just junk the whole thing, yeah, big ops did that. In Ohio, Ky, Indiana area, small ops made their machines last as long as possible... doing pf swaps, cabinet swaps, I saw all kinds of wrong parts, wrong flippers, wrong backglasses, wrong playfields in wrong cabinets, all of it to keep them out making money. You can have your own opinion, but you can’t change the truth of my memories by just saying “never happened” because, that would be a bold faced lie.

    #319 7 months ago

    So, at last count we have 76 owners of DP (eel)

    #320 7 months ago
    Quoted from vid1900:

    When I went to Bally School

    What’s Bally school ? How can I register?

    #321 7 months ago
    Quoted from erak:

    Exactly!
    That's where your argument is flawed.
    You keep stating that people are saying old games don't dimple (which sounds crazy) to defend your argument. No one has said they 100% don't. All games will dimple. Just not at the same speed or severity. How many plays? Where is the comparison?
    Show me any pre 2013 HUO machine or even routed with an accurate number of plays. Compare it to a new Stern HUO or routed with the same number.
    They will all have some playfield issues. But it will be obvious which ones are far worse.

    Yes!

    He is holding on to a truth none of us are arguing about. The deep dimpling is on the recent games, no one is arguing over 35+ yr old Xenon. He used a ruler across the middle valley of an old pf and used a Feeler gage to show it's been pounded. First off, one fully expects to find wear up the middle valley of a 35 yr old game, the only thing it proves is that wood wears....this test has zero value about what we are talking about, which is some recent pfs have softer wood. But leave it to the bell curve on pinside to go along without questioning it. Trust the bogus test not your eyes, even though there are a dozen of examples to show badly dimpled pfs on this site. Second, using old pfs as an example of dimpling is not valid in this case, the dimpling is not the same, it's not as deep as some of the pfs we've seen. Lastly, if some of these people just cared enough to research the issue and read a little they would see that a Pinsider actually tested several pfs and got some very eye opening results, but alas it's easier to just get spoonfed the information even though it might be wrong.

    https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/playfield-dimple-reality-check/page/4#post-3984595

    From Pinsider "Procrastinator":

    This is what I posted in another thread. All playfields are not created equal:

    Not all the way finished, but using a rebound tester, and configuring for somewhere between hardwood and bronze, I got some interesting results. The problem is trying to get a reading through the clear, which is obviously changing the hardness of the material.
    Average of 5 readings just above the valley on the shooter lane. HB is the unit of measurement, but it a complicated answer as to what the scale exactly is.
    MMR: 119 HB
    LOTRLE: 178 HB
    TSPP: 138 HB (mini playfield was 153 HB)
    TH: 163 HB
    WOZ: 184 HB
    I will do a GB and a MET On my way back from dinner and will update the results.
    Updated list with more games:
    MET: 157 HB
    GB PRO: 92-104 HB (92 was at shooter lane, 104 was highest result elsewhere on the untouched portions of the playfield, 3 ghosted inserts)
    NGG: 181 HB
    TOM: 170 HB
    AFM: 177 HB
    TRON: 155 HB
    GB PRE: 133 HB
    ST PRE: 161 HB
    Updated: With the updated results, especially with the ghosted one, it's pretty clear whatever they are doing with the wood has an effect. I checked the GB PRO all over, just to make sure I wasn't getting an erroneous reading. There was also a visible difference between the softer games and the harder games as far as playfield quality and condition. I don't really know what the fix is or what any of this really means as far as a solution, but at least their is verifiable data from a calibrated test device that we can go off. Also, we do rent this gear out, so stern is more than welcome to grab some equipment for their QC shop if so desired.
    So far I was really surprised by the vast differences in hardness, as a typical steel pinball would be in the 450 HB range the way the unit is configured. Keep in mind, these were the average of 5 readings from the same spot (I did some reference checks around the playfield and all results were within 5%). I always thought my MMR had some funky looking dimples, but nothing out of hand. I do Now know why my LOTR has always looked perfect, even after hundreds of plays, and it has something to with it being "harder" would be my guess. Either way, take what you will from the data, but it's not everyday you can use a $10k hardness tester for a god damn pinball playfield (I think I crossed a line of being "too into" the hobby and need to step back. Haha)

    Now, even an experienced restore is on record saying that not all pfs are created equal.
    Thanks to Pinsider Cottonm4 for posting these snippets from the HSA website

    https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/playfield-dimple-reality-check/page/6#post-4643834
    ef01dcef26394898df3c577424ea257f6239c6d0 (resized).jpg
    9a2c458cd575462ce25f07ab26f5b0a0bd9d4c48 (resized).jpgadm (resized).jpg

    #322 7 months ago

    I went to Expo this year hoping to bring a Stern DP Pro home... I watched a DP Pro go from smooth as glass till it looked like god damn moon base Alpha in three days, the CGC MBrLE’s did not.

    I came home with a MBrLE on order, not a DP Pro. That’s all Stern needs to know.

    #323 7 months ago
    Quoted from kvan99:

    Yes!
    He is holding on to a truth none of us are arguing about. The deep dimpling is on the recent games, no one is arguing over 35+ yr old Xenon. He used a ruler across the middle valley of an old pf and used a Feeler gage to show it's been pounded. First off, one fully expects to find wear up the middle valley of a 35 yr old game, the only thing it proves is that wood wears....this test has zero value about what we are talking about, which is some recent pfs have softer wood. But leave it to the bell curve on pinside to go along without questioning it. Trust the bogus test not your eyes, even though there are a dozen of examples to show badly dimpled pfs on this site. Second, using old pfs as an example of dimpling is not valid in this case, the dimpling is not the same, it's not as deep as some of the pfs we've seen. Lastly, if some of these people just cared enough to research the issue and read a little they would see that a Pinsider actually tested several pfs and got some very eye opening results, but alas it's easier to just get spoonfed the information even though it might be wrong.
    https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/playfield-dimple-reality-check/page/4#post-3984595
    From Pinsider "Procrastinator":
    This is what I posted in another thread. All playfields are not created equal:
    Not all the way finished, but using a rebound tester, and configuring for somewhere between hardwood and bronze, I got some interesting results. The problem is trying to get a reading through the clear, which is obviously changing the hardness of the material.
    Average of 5 readings just above the valley on the shooter lane. HB is the unit of measurement, but it a complicated answer as to what the scale exactly is.
    MMR: 119 HB
    LOTRLE: 178 HB
    TSPP: 138 HB (mini playfield was 153 HB)
    TH: 163 HB
    WOZ: 184 HB
    I will do a GB and a MET On my way back from dinner and will update the results.
    Updated list with more games:
    MET: 157 HB
    GB PRO: 92-104 HB (92 was at shooter lane, 104 was highest result elsewhere on the untouched portions of the playfield, 3 ghosted inserts)
    NGG: 181 HB
    TOM: 170 HB
    AFM: 177 HB
    TRON: 155 HB
    GB PRE: 133 HB
    ST PRE: 161 HB
    Updated: With the updated results, especially with the ghosted one, it's pretty clear whatever they are doing with the wood has an effect. I checked the GB PRO all over, just to make sure I wasn't getting an erroneous reading. There was also a visible difference between the softer games and the harder games as far as playfield quality and condition. I don't really know what the fix is or what any of this really means as far as a solution, but at least their is verifiable data from a calibrated test device that we can go off. Also, we do rent this gear out, so stern is more than welcome to grab some equipment for their QC shop if so desired.
    So far I was really surprised by the vast differences in hardness, as a typical steel pinball would be in the 450 HB range the way the unit is configured. Keep in mind, these were the average of 5 readings from the same spot (I did some reference checks around the playfield and all results were within 5%). I always thought my MMR had some funky looking dimples, but nothing out of hand. I do Now know why my LOTR has always looked perfect, even after hundreds of plays, and it has something to with it being "harder" would be my guess. Either way, take what you will from the data, but it's not everyday you can use a $10k hardness tester for a god damn pinball playfield (I think I crossed a line of being "too into" the hobby and need to step back. Haha)
    Now, even an experienced restore is on record saying that not all pfs are created equal.
    Thanks to Pinsider Cottonm4 for posting these snippets from the HSA website
    https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/playfield-dimple-reality-check/page/6#post-4643834
    [quoted image]
    [quoted image][quoted image]

    What.... blasphemy I say.

    #324 7 months ago
    Quoted from branlon8:

    What’s Bally school ? How can I register?

    Bally had a tech school that pinwrenches would fly out and attend.

    If you graduated, you not only knew how to fix a game,you knew the logic level behind the circuits.

    You will need a tardis to register nowadays.

    #325 7 months ago
    Quoted from kvan99:

    The deep dimpling is on the recent games

    How deep? How many games? Is it a single outlier or a trend? You need data to back up your claims. Let's see the data.
    procrastinator 's post is here: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/live-dimple-quest-the-ultimate-test#post-3963579
    His hardness test showed the following:
    92 Stern 2016 Ghostbusters pro
    119 Chicago Gaming 2015 MedMad
    133 Stern 2016 Ghostbusters pre
    138 Stern 2003 Simpsons
    155 Stern 2011 TRON
    157 Stern 2013 Metallica
    161 Stern 2013 Star Trek
    163 JJP 2016 Hobbit
    170 Bally 1995 Theatre of Magic
    177 Bally 1995 Attack from Mars
    178 Stern 2009 Rings LE
    181 Williams 1997 Gofers
    184 JJP 2013 WoZ

    Did Mirco do all JJP playfields? Maybe he has some useful data.

    All datasets have patterns and humans are evolved to notice patterns. They may or may not be useful patterns.

    #326 7 months ago

    Wasn't it pretty common for older machines to have certain playfields worse than others? I know my Firepower II and most of the other FPII's I've seen were all beat up. Especially around the flippers and slings. I understand it's 30+ years old, but FPII's seemed like it had a softer wood then other machines the same age. I'm sure there are many other examples of that. I believe it comes from whatever batch of wood the company has in at the time.

    #327 7 months ago
    Quoted from YeOldPinPlayer:

    How deep? How many games? Is it a single outlier or a trend? You need data to back up your claims. Let's see the data.
    procrastinator 's post is here: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/live-dimple-quest-the-ultimate-test#post-3963579
    His hardness test showed the following:
    92 Stern 2016 Ghostbusters pro
    119 Chicago Gaming 2015 MedMad
    133 Stern 2016 Ghostbusters pre
    138 Stern 2003 Simpsons
    155 Stern 2011 TRON
    157 Stern 2013 Metallica
    161 Stern 2013 Star Trek
    163 JJP 2016 Hobbit
    170 Bally 1995 Theatre of Magic
    177 Bally 1995 Attack from Mars
    178 Stern 2009 Rings LE
    181 Williams 1997 Gofers
    184 JJP 2013 WoZ
    Did Mirco do all JJP playfields? Maybe he has some useful data.
    All datasets have patterns and humans are evolved to notice patterns. They may or may not be useful patterns.

    Whaaa? You just posted the data you're asking for...? That's not enough to at least tell you that not all pfs are the same? How about the HSA post..? What do you want me to do, tabulate all of the dimples on a pf so you can have a bar graph? Umm, that's ok, just stay on that side of the line....your approval is not necessary.

    #328 7 months ago
    Quoted from Bublehead:

    vid1900, So I guess all those blank NOS playfields I saw the operators buying at the operators auctions and trading amounst themselves were merely for looks, huh? Wall art?, or are there any other memories you are going to tell me I don’t have, because, I have quite a few.

    This is EXACTLY what I mean when I say you can find **evidence** to reinforce your own beliefs, even if they are incorrect.

    Real ops would NEVER sell a game to a layperson. "If you sell people their own games, they won't play ours" was strictly observed.

    If it could not sell at auction, you took it to the dump on the way back to the shop

    The one game that I **would** sell to laypeople was KISS.

    KISS Army members would pay crazy money to have a worn out game in their homes, and because it was KISS!, it was somehow allowed to be sold to the commoners.

    KISS had a playfield light board that you could no longer buy in the 80s. The distro said that Bally finally ran out. No playfields either.

    Fast forward to the 2000s and Gene of IPB had bought 1/3 of all the remaining Bally/Williams stock (40 trailer loads), another 1/3 went to Australia and the other 1/3 went to Europe (it was very important to WMS that no one continent get the entire B/W stock, so they could not have anything nice).

    Gene had many 100s of the KISS light boards! I asked him where he got them from and he said that Bally had tons of overruns and after a year or two they just got warehoused and they had no idea what they even had stashed.

    He then pointed to me a pile of NOS KISS playfields. "$150 each". I looked thru them but they all were slight printing rejects, so they never even got to the dimple stage. "No thanks" I said. Kiss fans were buying worn machines, no problem. .....Or I have these, $300 pointing to some good KISS playfields - also just "found" in the stash (of course Gene tried to sell me the trash first, lol).

    On that visit, he had a shltton of Fireball2 playfields that were improperly printed too.

    (Latter Gene actually ran brand new KISS playfields that were nicely made.)

    But the point to the entire story is that after a few years, Bally did not even offer any replacements , they just tossed them in a warehouse and forgot about them. Even for their 2nd most popular game, KISS.

    If there was ANY demand for replacement playfields, Bally would have obviously kept them on the books for sale; not just thrown them in a werehouse to rot.

    So that's why 80% of the time when you see a real NOS playfield for sale from pinball's heyday, they are so poorly printed. They were rejects and 2nds.

    I just did a NOS F14, as usual, it had more problems than a teenage stepchild
    IMG_20180806_134152639_HDR (resized).jpg

    #329 7 months ago
    Quoted from kvan99:

    Whaaa? You just posted the data you're asking for...? That's not enough to at least tell you that not all pfs are the same? What do you want me to do, tabulate all of the dimples on a pf so you can have a bar graph? Umm, that's ok...

    Now you've switched from "deep dimples" to "not all playfields are the same". Statistical analysis is hard. I don't blame you for not wanting to put in the work to get the answers. No one else wants to put in the work either. You're not helping anyone by assuming you've found the answer without the data to back it up.

    #330 7 months ago

    So true ^^

    There is very little to no helpful data from those measurements. The sample sizes are way too small to use most any logic on it (math statistics) and tease out patterns or information. But that won't stop some people from posting totally fake and erroneous conclusions. There's no way to assess new vs old playfield hardness since only three examples are from before the 21st century. At 13 pins measured in total it doesn't even have a preferred minimum suggested sample size to consider all of them a single normal population for analysis. But at least one can try it without being totally laughed out of the room.

    Looking at the mean and SD for the samples as a single population shows how little help this information is at this time (it's a start but many more samples are needed). According to the stats from that sample analysis, there's a mean hardness of 155 and a 90% confidence interval between a hardness range 114 and 196 (on its scale). That's a large range of hardness being found on thirteen different pins and a reasonable if unhelpful conclusion. More sample are needed to try get better data and likely a smaller confidence interval. One needs to have 50-100 samples for each pin population to evaluate things reasonably well; that means 50-100 pre-2000 pins measured and 50-100 post-2000 pins measured. This sampling is a start but without a lot more samples taken it doesn't offer any more significant information. Until that's done, it's a laughable joke to use the numbers to say that old playfields were harder. In the measurements, only one pin, LOTR fell outside of the 90% confidence interval range measured in this one quick short study.

    Anyone drawing more conclusions shows how much bad information can be found here on Pinside.

    #331 7 months ago
    Quoted from YeOldPinPlayer:

    You're not helping anyone by assuming you've found the answer without the data to back it up.

    We don't need your infernal science, doctor.

    This is PINSIDE!!!!!!!!!!!

    #332 7 months ago
    Quoted from dzoomer:

    Anyone drawing more conclusions shows how much bad information can be found here on Pinside.

    Yep.

    The "study" does not even show if Metallica or WOZ was a Birch or a Maple playfield (they came in both versions).

    If you cant control your variables, it's not science.

    #333 7 months ago

    vid1900 Do you know the spec for the hardness of the wood used for playfields? Is there an expected range provided by the manufacturer or called for by the customers?

    #334 7 months ago
    Quoted from erak:

    You keep stating that people are saying old games don't dimple (which sounds crazy) to defend your argument. No one has said they 100% don't.

    You should read my inbox, cause every clown is telling me they have an undimpled playfield from the 60s.

    #335 7 months ago
    Quoted from YeOldPinPlayer:

    Now you've switched from "deep dimples" to "not all playfields are the same". Statistical analysis is hard. I don't blame you for not wanting to put in the work to get the answers. No one else wants to put in the work either. You're not helping anyone by assuming you've found the answer without the data to back it up.

    Ohh for fuck sakes man, deep dimpling, cratering, moon craters...what difference does the verbiage make? Stick to the core subject, are all the pfs dimpling the same or not. I'm free to assume anything I want, I've owned many pins, I have 5 stern games...You can assume what you want too, judging by your collection I have more data than you do.

    #336 7 months ago
    Quoted from YeOldPinPlayer:

    vid1900 Do you know the spec for the hardness of the wood used for playfields? Is there an expected range provided by the manufacturer or called for by the customers?

    Hard Maple, Rock Maple, Sugar Maple - 1450 hardness rating

    Hard maple is the hardest cheapest hardwood in North America. There are other Maples that are softer, but they are more expensive.

    It's very consistent in it's hardness, thus popular for Guitar Necks, Bowling Alley, Roller Rinks

    #337 7 months ago
    Quoted from kvan99:

    The deep dimpling is on the recent games, no one is arguing over 35+ yr old Xenon. He used a ruler across the middle valley of an old pf and used a Feeler gage to show it's been pounded.

    Quoted from kvan99:

    First off, one fully expects to find wear up the middle valley of a 35 yr old game, the only thing it proves is that wood wears.

    Open your eyes.

    There was absolutely NO WEAR on that wood.

    The paint and topcoat is COMPLETELY INTACT.

    You would obviously have to wear through the paint to start wearing down the wood.

    -

    I think you have made this your personal cross you want to die upon, so now you can't even see what everyone else is plainly looking at.

    #338 7 months ago

    @vid1900, thanks for the post. I enjoyed it. At the USA Auctions, they were “open to the public” due to them being held on state lands and fairgrounds. Now, if there are some old farts on here that may remember the USA auctions, ops from all over, all sizes, bar owners, juke box ops, coin op amusement ops in general from the tristate area. The ops had no say on who could or could not buy anything. They would however jack up a bid when they didn't recognize the face on the bidder. And, unlike other auctions, there were no reserves, but the owner can bid against you, basically letting the owner jack the price then let you take the bid. I knew a lot of the regulars and a lot of these ops were friends. Yes, it is a close knit group, and yeah, when you show up and they dont know you, you will not get a good deal. But you make some friends, you shake some hands, and you join the club. When you talk the talk and walk the walk, which means you have played a fuck ton of pinball and you have been pouring quarters into their machines for years, they warm up real quick.

    #339 7 months ago
    Quoted from vid1900:

    Open your eyes.
    There was absolutely NO WEAR on that wood.
    The paint and topcoat is COMPLETELY INTACT.
    You would obviously have to wear through the paint to start wearing down the wood.
    -
    I think you have made this your personal cross you want to die upon, so now you can't even see what everyone else is plainly looking at.

    Yeah, I like this cross, it's the cross of not letting people dictate my truth. I posted because I didn't agree with the stupid mantra steel vs. wood. I think there are now more believers than before. So I'm good. You carry on....I'll be here.

    #340 7 months ago
    Quoted from Bublehead:

    At the USA Auctions, they were “open to the public” due to them being held on state lands and fairgrounds.

    USA Auctions were hilarious.

    We'd always bid against the obvious non coin-op guys to make them pay 2x what the machine was worth.

    If a commoner brought a game to sell, we'd reach inside and make the screen scrambled so it would sell for nothing at all.

    You would see commoners stand 2 games up in the back of a pickup truck, then have them dump as soon as they turned out of the lot. It was like a video game graveyard.

    Good times!

    #341 7 months ago
    Quoted from kvan99:

    I think there are now more believers than before.

    Hope you got your Nikes on, cause the spaceship is a-coming .

    Heaven's Gate

    #342 7 months ago
    Quoted from vid1900:

    Hope you got your Nikes on, cause the spaceship is a-coming .
    [quoted image]

    I have some, no prob, I'll be in Michigan in a couple of months, I'd appreciate it if you let me know where you got that BM66 SLE routed so I can play a few games on it.

    #343 7 months ago
    Quoted from kvan99:

    I have some, no prob, I'll be in Michigan in a couple of months, I'd appreciate it if you let me know where you got that BM66 SLE routed so I can play a few games on it.

    Funny you should ask, one of the Pinball Map guys sent me the SLE info not a half hour ago. Five on location world-wide:
    > ---------------------------------------> nyc | 4008 | Pioneers
    > Batman 66 (Super LE) | 2729> japan | 10237 | The SILVER BALL PLANET
    > Batman 66 (Super LE) | 2729> detroit | 4952 | Marvin's Marvelous Mechanical Museum
    > Batman 66 (Super LE) | 2729> brisbane | 9971 | Timezone Coolangatta
    > Batman 66 (Super LE) | 2729> louisville | 4844 | Zanzabar

    #344 7 months ago
    Quoted from YeOldPinPlayer:

    Funny you should ask, one of the Pinball Map guys sent me the SLE info not a half hour ago. Five on location world-wide:
    > ---------------------------------------> nyc | 4008 | Pioneers
    > Batman 66 (Super LE) | 2729> japan | 10237 | The SILVER BALL PLANET
    > Batman 66 (Super LE) | 2729> detroit | 4952 | Marvin's Marvelous Mechanical Museum
    > Batman 66 (Super LE) | 2729> brisbane | 9971 | Timezone Coolangatta
    > Batman 66 (Super LE) | 2729> louisville | 4844 | Zanzabar

    Thanks but that one went right over you head, that's not the one I was talking about.

    #345 7 months ago

    Can we get a no dimple filter so it will never shows those threads. This is the neverending argument. Some go for the "pounded flat" theory but others have seen or have of their own older playfields that you can tell for 100% sure that's us not flat but perfect.

    #346 7 months ago
    Quoted from vid1900:

    You would see commoners stand 2 games up in the back of a pickup truck, then have them dump as soon as they turned out of the lot. It was like a video game graveyard.
    Good times!

    I have saved more pinball machines lives at the end of a USA auction by casually throwing the nubes a wrench.

    But you are correct, saw a lot of death at those things... that first dumb mistake is a $$$ killer.

    #347 7 months ago

    On the other hand, I really doubt that if most of the 'newer' games were on route like they used to be, many won't even still work in 20-30 years unless someone starts licensing the boards to repro now. We're in a throwaway culture.

    #348 7 months ago

    Is it possible to order an extra play field from Stern? I remember with TSPP seeing new play fields on eBay for sale. I’d really be interested in ordering the alternate translites if that were a possibility.

    #349 7 months ago
    Quoted from kvan99:

    I have some, no prob, I'll be in Michigan in a couple of months, I'd appreciate it if you let me know where you got that BM66 SLE routed so I can play a few games on it.

    Uggg, I was just up in crappy Michigan a few weeks ago after Expo, but if you want to hook up, I can see if my boss has any work for a flight up there.

    Remember, I'm a top.

    #350 7 months ago

    You're a "top" alright, top of my ....lol. Ahh, so if you don't want me to play the BM66, I'll settle for the Tron LE.....

    PS: wear that sexy flak jacket for me.

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