(Topic ID: 227365)

Deadpeel

By wolfemaaan

5 years ago


Topic Heartbeat

Topic Stats

  • 357 posts
  • 101 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 5 years ago by king-pin
  • Topic is favorited by 5 Pinsiders

You

Linked Games

No games have been linked to this topic.

    Topic Gallery

    View topic image gallery

    03212017heavensgatebody01 (resized).jpg
    IMG_20180806_134152639_HDR (resized).jpg
    adm (resized).jpg
    9a2c458cd575462ce25f07ab26f5b0a0bd9d4c48 (resized).jpg
    ef01dcef26394898df3c577424ea257f6239c6d0 (resized).jpg
    11f396c4f32ccc1d72fa2a8546d76fca428841c5 (resized).jpg
    87770978_XS (resized).jpg
    12233207-corn-field-corn-on-the-cob (resized).jpg
    fathom_close1 (resized).jpg
    TEtmVwp (resized).jpg
    fathom1 (resized).jpg
    1110182140b (resized).jpg
    1110182141a (resized).jpg
    pasted_image (resized).png
    xenon-dimples (resized).jpg
    orbitor1.jpg

    There are 357 posts in this topic. You are on page 6 of 8.
    #251 5 years ago
    Quoted from Bublehead:

    so it may be a combination of soft wood,

    Where is this soft Hard Maple from?

    Hard Maple is a very consistent wood as far as hardness.

    There are softer Maple species, but they are way more expensive.

    If you oversand a standard playfield, you'd make holes through the insert faces before you hit the next layer of Maple.

    Quoted from Bublehead:

    and/or faulty clear coats,

    Clear coat does not matter.

    A clear coat is .004" thick.

    If you took a piece of steel foil that was .004" thick and bonded it to a playfield, it would still dimple like crazy.

    Quoted from Bublehead:

    Has anyone seen a difference between a freshly NIB machine placed on route and the same title NIB but has sat for several weeks before putting it on site?

    Yes.

    This playfield sat NIB for 2128 weeks (her complexion is very yellow), then it got clearcoated, then 26 weeks latter the game got put back together.

    The very first day it got deployed, this was the result:

    xenon-dimples (resized).jpgxenon-dimples (resized).jpg

    In just one day, her cherry got totally popped.

    And this is a game with no drops, no forward facing targets, no ramps the ball can fly off of, weak Bally flippers, no upper level.....

    #252 5 years ago
    Quoted from kvan99:

    One more thing, how is the entire pf going to get pounded flat evenly if there are different dimple depths?

    O' ye of little faith......

    https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/playfield-dimple-reality-check/page/6#post-4639657

    #253 5 years ago

    @vid, wood is a fickle thing. Ask a luthier. Talk about people who know something about wood wear and dimples and topcoats. If you sand away too much of the hardwood while finishing the pf, you don’t have to go all the way through the hardwood to make it more susceptible to dimples. The thicker the hard layer, the less the depth of the dimples, simple physics. And a coating, even very thin, can have a major affect on surface hardness. Especially when the coating binds to the substrate. Car manufacturers use hard clear topcoats to limit paint dings from rocks... you going to tell me they go to all that expense because they just like the shiny surface? And they are just as thin as our playfield clear coats. Not picking a side here, just saying that dimpling seems to be an industry wide problem that we either accept or do something about. Not sure what it is we all want except perfect playfields that never get worn out.

    #254 5 years ago

    The only PF I've never seen a dimple on was an Interflip Dragon

    #255 5 years ago
    Quoted from Bublehead:

    @vid, wood is a fickle thing. Ask a luthier.

    Since I build acoustic and electric guitars, I got that.

    pasted_image (resized).pngpasted_image (resized).png

    Quoted from Bublehead:

    If you sand away too much of the hardwood while finishing the pf, you don’t have to go all the way through the hardwood to make it more susceptible to dimples.

    Each layer of a standard playfield is Hard Maple.

    Because each layer is thick, and it's not just a Maple veneer, the plywood is know in the trades as "lumber core"

    The playfield is routed out,

    Then the inserts are glued in

    Then the playfield is surfaced, to make sure all the inserts are level with the face

    Then the playfield is sprayed with sanding sealer (think primer) that keeps the ink from absorbing into the wood grain

    Then the sealed layer is sanded

    Then a layer of white ink base is silkscreened.

    Then all the other colors are silkscreened on top of the white

    Then the black layer of ink goes last.

    Then the playfield is clear coated,

    Then it is sanded flat and polished.

    Then it is waxed and populated.

    -

    So, where exactly, are any playfields being **oversanded** during finishing?

    If you oversand a playfield during finishing, you will cut through the clear and destroy the screen printing.

    Are you seeing evidence of this somewhere?

    #256 5 years ago
    Quoted from Bwilson:

    The only PF I've never seen a dimple on was an Interflip Dragon

    Or Elektra or New Castia or Oritor or.......

    #257 5 years ago

    @vid, no evidence, but it could be a factor. I think we need to put all our collective heads together and solve the issue. My memory and recollection is that dimpling, though a mild problem in the past, is a major problem now. That shot of AFM and Deadpool are what I would consider manufacturing fails. I have seen lost wood AFM’s that had flatter surfaces than that. I’m not here to argue if it is or is not a problem, it is a verifiable fact the playfields look like this after only 2-3 days of play on site. The Deadpool Pro next to the tournament area at Expo looked exactly like that picture and it was smooth as glass on the day it was unboxed. I know because I helped pop it’s cherry playing the 3rd player on it’s maiden game Wednesday and it was the last machine left playable Saturday night by the public when I put 6 bucks in it and played my last game of the Expo. All desire to own a Deadpool pretty much went out the window when I saw the surface of the playfield. Stern and all the other manufacturers should take note. We want stronger and more durable playfields. That’s all.

    #258 5 years ago

    Nice.....but we both know it's still unscientific, If, and I say if we accept that test on that one Pf, you took a measurement of one area. using a feeler gage inserted under a ruler that I didn't see clamped down. So for starters, is your tool perfectly square? Is the pf the same level on both sides that the measurement was taken? Was the middle area worn from ball travel or pounded? Also the feeler gage read .035, that is one serious gap bro. I bet the clear would've cracked before that wood is compressed .035 thousands. But one of these days someone will bust out a Janka tester and then we can put this to bed.

    #259 5 years ago
    Quoted from kvan99:

    but we both know it's still unscientific, If, and I say if we accept that test on that one Pf, you took a measurement of one area.

    It's the best we got.

    Everyone else is just proposing wild nonsense out of their ass; I took some actual measurements with quality tools.

    Quoted from kvan99:

    So for starters, is your tool perfectly square?

    It's $350 made in USA, engraved not stamped, absolutely flat. Since it's used for machining, it exceeds any woodworking tolerance.

    Quoted from kvan99:

    you took a measurement of one area.

    Exactly.

    It was the ONLY area of the playfield that was:

    1. protected from any air balls due to the Xenon tube being directly over it

    2. It needed to be less than 8" across, because my Starrett is only 12" long

    Quoted from kvan99:

    using a feeler gage inserted under a ruler that I didn't see clamped down.

    Of course I'm not going to clamp it down.

    It stands up on it's own across the 2 flats of the pop body plateaus.

    You don't clamp a feeler gauge under things (OMG), you gently slide them under and **feel** for any resistance.

    Quoted from kvan99:

    Was the middle area worn from ball travel or pounded?

    All the paint was completely intact, so it was from pounding.

    There were other areas of the playfield you can see in the pics, where it was worn through to the wood.

    Quoted from kvan99:

    Also the feeler gage read .035, that is one serious gap bro.

    Yep! I saw that.

    Almost a full 1mm of wood compression.

    Quoted from kvan99:

    I bet the clear would've cracked before that wood is compressed .035 thousands.

    That playfield was in use for the past 39 years.

    So, in tiny increments, the wood was compressed, and the lacquer followed along for the ride.

    Quoted from kvan99:

    But one of these days someone will bust out a Janka tester and then we can put this to bed.

    It's already being done.

    I lent them 2 dozen playfields from the 1950's through 2004, to do my part.

    -1
    #260 5 years ago
    Quoted from Bublehead:

    The Deadpool Pro next to the tournament area at Expo looked exactly like that picture and it was smooth as glass on the day it was unboxed.

    You know that's a good thing, right?

    Quoted from Bublehead:

    All desire to own a Deadpool pretty much went out the window when I saw the surface of the playfield.

    That's because you don't have any experience deploying brand new games.

    Look at that Xenon in post #251, NOS 39 year old playfield, first day of use.

    And this is a game with no drops, no forward facing targets, no ramps the ball can fly off of, weak Bally flippers, no upper level.....

    #261 5 years ago
    Quoted from Bublehead:

    Stern and all the other manufacturers should take note. We want stronger and more durable playfields. That’s all.

    For people terrorized by dimples, JJP will install a playfield protector on any NIB game for only $250.

    You can buy your own for any Stern game for $100

    So the solution to the **problem** is inexpensively available for any new game.

    Old games are already compressed, so you'll never know how dimpled it used to be.

    -4
    #262 5 years ago
    Quoted from vid1900:

    You don't clamp a feeler gauge under things (OMG), you gently slide them under and **feel** for any resistance.

    So you thought I said to clamp the feeler gage down huh? Right....cool.

    PS: 350 bucks for Starrett 12" inch combo? I thought you're the one with the deals man..?

    #263 5 years ago

    @vid1900, good that it was played? Yes! That is a good thing. That it looks that rough in 3 days? Not good. My Family Guy was NIB and used in the flip out tournament in Chicago and was played hard for 3 days straight. It is a standard Stern playfield and it didn’t look like moonbase alpha afterwards. Nor did the POTC or Spider-Man machines that were also used that year. My experience differs so I’m not going to argue. The OP picture is a playfield fail... IMHO

    #264 5 years ago

    Someone here could DIY a hardness testing setup. I would but I don't have the time (and I only have two pinball machines that I don't want to drop a screwdriver onto...).

    If it's good enough for Matthias, it's more than good enough for me.

    http://www.woodgears.ca/hardness_test/

    Maybe instead of a Robertson screwdriver, one could drop a pinball from a set height.

    #267 5 years ago
    Quoted from vid1900:

    You do know that tools come in different grades, right?
    First hits on Google:
    https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/86414562

    And that's the cheap version. The good one has cast iron: https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/04025292

    #268 5 years ago
    Quoted from Bublehead:

    The OP picture is a playfield fail... IMHO

    Stop buying new games, because you will worry yourself to death with how shiny, well-lit and clear the glass is compared to a decade ago.

    There are over 6000 pinball machine titles out there, plenty to choose from, and 99% of them are pre-compressed.

    Even if you bought a used one each week, you could never own them all.

    #269 5 years ago
    Quoted from YeOldPinPlayer:

    And that's the cheap version. The good one has cast iron: https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/04025292

    Exactly!

    I did not even try to find the highest grades, just the first hits on Google.

    #270 5 years ago
    Quoted from vid1900:

    Exactly!
    I did not even try to find the highest grades, just the first hits on Google.

    well, I can see you spending that kind of money, you also have a BM66 SLE that's routed.

    #271 5 years ago
    Quoted from vid1900:

    Where is this soft Hard Maple from?
    Hard Maple is a very consistent wood as far as hardness.
    There are softer Maple species, but they are way more expensive.

    If you oversand a standard playfield, you'd make holes through the insert faces before you hit the next layer of Maple.

    Clear coat does not matter.
    A clear coat is .004" thick.
    If you took a piece of steel foil that was .004" thick and bonded it to a playfield, it would still dimple like crazy.

    Yes.
    This playfield sat NIB for 2128 weeks (her complexion is very yellow), then it got clearcoated, then 26 weeks latter the game got put back together.
    The very first day it got deployed, this was the result:
    [quoted image]
    In just one day, her cherry got totally popped.
    And this is a game with no drops, no forward facing targets, no ramps the ball can fly off of, weak Bally flippers, no upper level.....

    Xenon has drops. Otherwise nice post.

    #272 5 years ago
    Quoted from kermit24:

    Xenon has drops. Otherwise nice post.

    Ramp drops, not drop targets....

    #273 5 years ago
    Quoted from vid1900:

    Ramp drops, not drop targets....

    Ah ok. And the Tube is a smooth entry and exit. That came out wrong.

    #274 5 years ago

    Man I hate a cover but Duane really knocked this one outta the park...

    #275 5 years ago
    Quoted from kvan99:

    My Tron....here are some shots of the pf around the upper flipper. Have a look at the front and behind the flipper....still smooth, almost no dimples after 5 years.
    [quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]

    Who cares? It’s a Yawn, er, Tron.

    #276 5 years ago
    Quoted from kvan99:

    well, I can see you spending that kind of money, you also have a BM66 SLE that's routed.

    Again, your jealousy is seeping out from between your segments.

    I've got no wife, no alimony, no children, no mortgage, thus no reason not to freely spend money on pins, guitars, tools, guns, fast cars, my nieces and nephews, traveling the world, drinking and fighting.

    I wouldn't have it any other way.

    -1
    #277 5 years ago
    Quoted from Bublehead:

    vid1900, good that it was played? Yes! That is a good thing. That it looks that rough in 3 days? Not good. My Family Guy was NIB and used in the flip out tournament in Chicago and was played hard for 3 days straight. It is a standard Stern playfield and it didn’t look like moonbase alpha afterwards. Nor did the POTC or Spider-Man machines that were also used that year. My experience differs so I’m not going to argue. The OP picture is a playfield fail... IMHO

    Yup. This is reality. These are facts. Playfields were generally better from the 2006-7 era, although they had more issues with color alignment back then...that issue seems to be gone now. The first time I saw full mushy cratering was on X-Men. Then on a STLE. Then on a TWDLE. Again - not on ALL modern pins...I've seen plenty of nice playfields on X-Mens & ST's & TWD's as well.

    SOME playfields for SOME reason ARE mushy & crater easily and deep. Fact. They are DIFFERENT than playfields that do not exhibit this behavior.

    Trust your eyes & don't let Vid GASLIGHT you!!!!!!!

    -1
    #278 5 years ago

    Don't say that Jody might fire him..

    #279 5 years ago

    So, has anyone asked an operator how the playfields of new (the last 7 years) have held up to older ones (older than the last 7 years)? Did they flatten out, or are they trashed? Since their games would get the plays needed...and HUO wouldn’t. And I’m not talking about a small sample set...it has to be statistically significant, or we are just beating our heads on the wall.

    #280 5 years ago
    Quoted from dnapac:

    So, has anyone asked an operator how the playfields of new (the last 7 years) have held up to older ones (older than the last 7 years)? Did they flatten out, or are they trashed? Since their games would get the plays needed...and HUO wouldn’t. And I’m not talking about a small sample set...it has to be statistically significant, or we are just beating our heads on the wall.

    I fix games for a few ops when their normal service guys hit a brick wall.

    "OMFG, these new Stern, AP and JJPs are dimpling like a somobitch! Vid, tell your boss Gary he's got to do something about this before it becomes a fncking pinball holocaust." - said no op ever.

    Generally ops are bitching that they lost 2 games when a place went out of business, or that somebody is ripping them off and they don't know who, or that kids have found a way to steal from the BarbRcut game.

    If they are bitching about pinball it's generally that someone peeled the decals on the cab and the location says it's trashed, or that 1/2 the playfield lights are out.

    Real ops never see the games on their routes. The collection guy does and the service guy does. That's it.

    #281 5 years ago
    Quoted from jellikit:

    This one literally had craters and look how smooth it is now. It could use a wipe-down, but it almost looks like a layer of plexi now.[quoted image]

    and you know what. That playfield gets NO dimples.

    #282 5 years ago

    Stern's missing an opportunity. They could offer a premium pre-dimpling service on these playfields.

    I'm thinking a machine like a planer but with hundreds of little spinning hammers to pummel the pf as it slides through. They could market it as "forging."

    #283 5 years ago
    Quoted from dnapac:

    So, has anyone asked an operator how the playfields of new (the last 7 years) have held up to older ones (older than the last 7 years)? Did they flatten out, or are they trashed? Since their games would get the plays needed...and HUO wouldn’t. And I’m not talking about a small sample set...it has to be statistically significant, or we are just beating our heads on the wall.

    My biggest concern about Stern playfields is when the time comes for them to be replaced from use there won't be any for the masses. I know that will take a while, but since everything is licensed, reproductions might be a really tough thing to have happen. Looking at what CPR and Hardtops are doing for games that are 20/30/40/50 years old, I hope that options like that exist for modern Sterns some day. There is a LOTR on route in Tucson and the Sam shot on the left is really chewed up. I didn't even think about the potential future issue until I saw that game.

    My launch party era has lots of dimples, but also only has about 2500 plays since my locations aren't super busy. Doesn't bother me and it's not exactly noticeable unless you are trying to find it.

    #284 5 years ago
    Quoted from desertT1:

    My biggest concern about Stern playfields is when the time comes for them to be replaced from use there won't be any for the masses.

    Your distributor can order you any recent playfield right now, same as when Bally, Gottlieb and Williams was still around.

    Put a few away if you think you have a need.

    I simply clearcoat my new Sterns, so I don't have to worry about them wearing through, even if I route them.

    2 weeks later
    #285 5 years ago

    At the risk of starting up this debate again... I waxed my BK2K last night and had some additional lights on. With the upper playfield up, I noticed... dimples! I couldn't really feel them with my finger, so I agree with vid - the playfield gets hammered "flat" over time, even through mylar.

    1110182140b (resized).jpg1110182140b (resized).jpg1110182141a (resized).jpg1110182141a (resized).jpg

    #286 5 years ago

    This is a great explanation!

    Quoted from vid1900:

    First get the word "problem" out of your head, so you can think clearly.
    There is no problem.
    Anyone that operated games back in the day, will tell you that all new games dimple.
    It's only the nubies that believe a piece of wood is going to be harder than a piece of steel because someone sprayed a .004" coating of urethane on it.

    EVERYTHING is amplifying the effect.
    New playfields are polished and waxed at the factory - the shinier something is, the more ANY imperfection stands out.
    New games are brightly lit - old games had almost no lighting. Xenon had 16 GI lamps and the playfield is mostly black.
    New games have no-glare, super-clear glass. Old games had green soda-lime glass.
    New games now have crystal-clear sprayed on coatings. Old games had either silkscreened lacquer or cloudy Diamondplate coatings.
    New games are new, so every little dimple stands out. You see a tiny scratch or dent in your new car and it drives you crazy because it stands out. Your 10 year old car that you gave to your daughter has hundreds of tiny dents and scratches, but you don't notice them at all.
    New games are steeper and have as many ramps as they can squeeze onto a playfield. Ramps need powerful flippers. Balls fly everywhere, often after hitting the glass. Old games had noting like that - Comet in 1986 was the first game where the ball would regularly hit the glass and then break all the plastics.
    New games will take much longer to get enough plays to flatten out. Any old game that did not pay for itself in 3 months was a dog. Nowadays people talk about a 6 year payback.
    I would put mechanical counters in my route games because they could not be reset - the electronic counter BETTER match pretty closely to my mechanical counter, or I'm getting ripped off.
    Games in good locations would get 30,000 plays a year.
    Even when I've taken my games to Expo, they only got about 700 plays
    -

    #287 5 years ago
    Quoted from ctviss:

    At the risk of starting up this debate again... I waxed my BK2K last night and had some additional lights on. With the upper playfield up, I noticed... dimples!

    Those are great pictures !

    #288 5 years ago
    Quoted from ctviss:

    At the risk of starting up this debate again... I waxed my BK2K last night and had some additional lights on. With the upper playfield up, I noticed... dimples! I couldn't really feel them with my finger, so I agree with vid - the playfield gets hammered "flat" over time, even through mylar.
    [quoted image][quoted image]

    and that's on an upper playfield that hardly gets any airballs. If that was an airball area, that would really be pounded to shit.

    #289 5 years ago
    Quoted from kvan99:

    So for starters, is your tool perfectly square?

    #290 5 years ago
    Quoted from Jjsmooth:

    Like friggin groundhog day..again.

    Put your little hand in mine.......

    #291 5 years ago

    i know for a fact that my dimples have gotten me laid a few a times. need proof VID?

    #292 5 years ago

    anyone have a CPR PF with dimples?

    #293 5 years ago
    Quoted from TwoHeartedMale:

    anyone have a CPR PF with dimples?

    Yes.

    fathom1 (resized).jpgfathom1 (resized).jpg
    #294 5 years ago

    I've always been a fan of dimples.

    TEtmVwp (resized).jpgTEtmVwp (resized).jpg
    #295 5 years ago
    Quoted from TRAMD:

    I've always been a fan of dimples.[quoted image]

    don't think your my type sorry.

    #296 5 years ago
    Quoted from wolfemaaan:

    Wow, Stern just clocking in on this Pin. Worst new playfield I’ve ever seen. Earl Shieb could have done a better paint job for $199
    Lot of quality new companies that would never do this plus ZERO 90’s Pins have Orange Peel playfield. Total garbage Stern
    [quoted image]

    It seems like you disagree with some pinside members. And got downvoted because you spoke your eye witness opinion with pics.
    I applaud you. And yes the playfield wood or clear is more crappy more often compared to other manufacturers. Multiple Stern machine playfield pics don't lie.

    But if you speak your mind about actual facts you personally eye witness. And provide proof on multiple occasions. In their eyes you are still wrong. Even when your right. Gotta love the internet.

    #297 5 years ago

    There is a difference between a few dimples. Which is totally normal and healthy, and cottage cheese. Which alot of Stern's produced now have. I guess finding a way to spend all that extra money they have been charging and saving. Has gone straight to their playfields.

    And before the PC police or me too movement blast me for sexism or fat shaming.
    It's a joke. Cultivate a sense of humor while your trying to change the world. One stupid internet post about a hobby at a time.

    Did I cover all the bases? God knows you have to do that nowadays. Oh $#@& I said "God" sorry about that too.

    #298 5 years ago
    Quoted from TwoHeartedMale:

    i know for a fact that my dimples have gotten me laid a few a times. need proof VID?

    Did it hurt the first time?

    #299 5 years ago
    Quoted from TwoHeartedMale:

    anyone have a CPR PF with dimples?

    OMG, CPR playfiels dimple like.......any other.

    #300 5 years ago
    Quoted from erak:

    It seems like you disagree with some pinside members. And got downvoted because you spoke your eye witness opinion with pics.

    She got downvoted because she posted incorrect information.

    If I go on Farmside and post this "eye witness opinion" with these pics, I'm going to get downvoted.

    -

    Wow, Monsanto, just clocking in on these Corn Plants. Worst Corn Plants I’ve ever seen. Burkee could have done a better planting job for $1.99

    Lot of quality new plant companies that would never do this plus ZERO 2017 corn plants have lack of ears. Total garbage Monsanto

    Look at these pics!!!!!!1 These corn plants are Brand New from Monsanto and look like total garbage:

    87770978_XS (resized).jpg87770978_XS (resized).jpg

    Here are some Corn Plants I saw A YEAR AGO from Burkee:

    12233207-corn-field-corn-on-the-cob (resized).jpg12233207-corn-field-corn-on-the-cob (resized).jpg

    You can SEE WITH YOUR OWN EYES that old corn plants used to have ears of corn, but BRAND NEW corn plants from Monsanto are just shlt.

    Shame on Monsanto

    There are 357 posts in this topic. You are on page 6 of 8.

    Reply

    Wanna join the discussion? Please sign in to reply to this topic.

    Hey there! Welcome to Pinside!

    Donate to Pinside

    Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run without any 3rd-party banners or ads, thanks to the support from our visitors? Please consider a donation to Pinside and get anext to your username to show for it! Or better yet, subscribe to Pinside+!


    This page was printed from https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/deadpeel/page/6 and we tried optimising it for printing. Some page elements may have been deliberately hidden.

    Scan the QR code on the left to jump to the URL this document was printed from.