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(Topic ID: 166394)

GI Relay turns off when coin door closed??


By Bos98

4 years ago



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  • 25 posts
  • 8 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 4 years ago by Bos98
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#1 4 years ago

Skip to my latest post for a summary of what has been done already

I just picked up a Royal Rumble. It had some alkaline corrosion and was rebooting or telling me the coindoor was opened when it wasn't.

I replaced the socket and M6802. Game boots up and does play but if the coin door is closed the middle and upper GI turns off. If I open the coin door it turns back on.

While I am sure I can eventually track this down a pointer in the right direction would be appreciated. I am hoping it isn't from the replacement socket and CPU chip.

Thanks!

#2 4 years ago

Board prior to repair.

The 7402 doesn't look that great and I have a socket and a spare I could put in but I don't think that is related to the GI unless it controls a transistor that controls the GI Relay??

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#3 4 years ago

Check for any exposed wiring or metal parts that may be shorting to the back of the door?

#4 4 years ago

Coin chute lights shorting to lockdown bar release lever ?

LTG : )

#5 4 years ago

How about swapping your JP MPU in and see what happens? Or swap the suspect MPU into the JP, depending on how brave you feel each way.

#6 4 years ago

I am not brave!!!

Nothing seems shorted by the coin door. Is it possible an bad transistor could be causing this?

#7 4 years ago

The lower gi (slings) is powered completely separate from the rest of gi doesn't go through a relay just stays on. Just a tip to keep you from chasing ghosts later. So if the slings are the only part remaining on then basically all your gi is out. Check lamps at coin insert on doors maybe something shorting there? Sounds like something clicking the relay over

#8 4 years ago

In a coil test I get some crazy stuff happening.

Video coming up

#9 4 years ago

#10 4 years ago

So CN12 connector was also corroded. When I repinned it and put it back in I noticed some arcing and sizzle coming from Q23 above it. Time to replace some transistors.

#11 4 years ago

Bottom left pins on the 6802 don't look good. The 7402 needs to be pulled, the pads/pins cleaned up.

You need to go through the board and neutralize all alkaline damage and clean-up any oxidation. Then you can start troubleshooting things.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/terrybs-guide-to-repairing-battery-damage

#12 4 years ago

I did all of that. Replaced the 6802 and the socket, replaced the 7402 with a socket and new chip. I replaced a 4401 that was not good for the GI and replaced the connector for CN12.

Checked for shorts anywhere I could with a visible inspection. Fired the game back up... literally

I believe the one transistor closest to the left is not wired to anything and the other is the Ramp diverter.

I pulled the wires out of the harness for the diverter and the fire is gone. GI is still not coming on unless the coin door is opened still.

#13 4 years ago

I am guessing coil diode is shot on the ramp diverter under the mini playfield so I will rip that all apart tomorrow and check it. I will then repair the board again replacing the 4401 and TIP102 for each coil.

Also if I pull that harness at CN12 the GI lights up with the coin door open. I guess something wired to that harness is shorted somewhere

#14 4 years ago

So I think I figured out what may be killing at least one set of transistors.

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This should be 50.2 Ohms resistance and mine measures 0.0

http://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/090-5031-00

$30 + Shipping ouch.

Still no idea why the GI wont work unless the coin door is opened unless this being on the same harness and being faulty is the cause.

#15 4 years ago
Quoted from Bos98:

So I think I figured out what may be killing at least one set of transistors.

This should be 50.2 Ohms resistance and mine measures 0.0
http://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/090-5031-00
$30 + Shipping ouch.
Still no idea why the GI wont work unless the coin door is opened unless this being on the same harness and being faulty is the cause.

Are you measuring it the right way? Keep in mind if you are doing it wrong it will appear shorted because of the diode.

#16 4 years ago

Are you sure the G.I is not shorted to those coils associated with the transistors that burned up? And is the G.I fused correctly? That coil visually looks good. And like Otaku said, if you are reading it wrong, the diode will make it look bad.

If the G.I comes on with the coindoor open. Isn't the high power for the coils off? Because of the interlock? Then with the coindoor closed the coils get power. Making the G.I not work.

Just a wild guess. I'm probably wrong.

By looking at that pic. Is the fish paper insulation good on that bracket? It looks like the coil lugs might be shorting to the bracket. And if there is a lamp socket near or screwed on the bracket it might be shorting to the high power as well.

Looks like they might be touching. And shorting across the bracket.

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#17 4 years ago

I removed the diode and disconnected the coil before testing but I did not notice if it was shorted to the bracket. I will check it later today.

#18 4 years ago

So I tested some other stuff with my meter and got bizarre results. I went and bought a new meter and retested that first coil. It is fine at 52.2 ohms. I replaced the diode on it because I had it out of the game, and no it was not shorting to the bracket.

Since I intended on ripping the game apart and rebuilding everything I am going to re-diode every coil.

Did anyone notice that some flashers fired when I was in coil test in the first video? I am guessing a short exists there too.

#19 4 years ago

Just adding this to help keep my thoughts organized. I am going to replace the diodes on the coils after testing each one that is connected to those transistors and replace the a/b relay on the PPB and check and replace the tip36c's associated and pull the 7408 that is controlling CN12.

I can't think of anything else it could be. I tore down the entire playfield while I wait for parts and pulled every bulb and flasher. I checked for anything shorted, loose or pinched and found nothing.

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#20 4 years ago

Ok so I replaced every coil diode and tested every coil.

I replaced the transistors and predrive transistors. I replaced the 7408. I repinned the GI connector. I reflowed all the pins on the PPB and replaced the A/B relay.

The GI relay turns off when coin door switch shown in the photo here on the left is pushed in or pulled out all the way.

Additionally if I remove the GI harness from the power board I can still hear the relay click on and off as I open and close the coin door. I would think this would indicate it is not a wiring issue with the GI but something else possibly on the power supply board.

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#21 4 years ago

The flashers going off in coil test is normal. As flashers are part of that test. The relay is also part of the high power circuit. Are you sure you don't have a plug in the wrong way, wrong spot or backwards. The coindoor switch should only turn on the high power relay when pushed in or pulled out.

Because it's turning off your G.I. I think you have a bad G.I relay. Or possibly a plug in backwards or on the wrong connector. Check the schematics for wire colors and pin outs on your boards. And check the G.I relay. It is probably bad or has cold solider joints.

GI Power comes from the transformer.
GI Power goes to the power supply board through an input molex plug.
GI power goes to a relay on the power supply board. This relay can be activated to turn on and off the GI.
GI power leaves the power supply board through an output molex plug.
GI Power goes into the PPB board through an input molex plug.
GI Power goes through a fuse (and potentially cracked fuse holders!).
GI Power leaves the PPB board through an output molex plug, and goes to the backbox or playfield.

Power Supply board relay RY1: this relay controls the GI (General Illumination), and is controlled by CPU transistor Q28 (TIP122). It is very common for this relay to have cold solder joints, or to have relay switch contacts that are melted together. This relay is a 24 vdc 10 amp relay with two DPDT switches. There are a total of 8 solder points on this relay; two connect to the winding of the relay coil (to turn the relay on and off). The other six contacts (two distinct sets of three contact DPDT switches) are the relay switches. Source number FRL264 P024/02CK, Sega part 190-5003-00.

All of the relays used in DataEast/Sega games have at least two sets of contacts. If a relay is mistakenly replaced with (for example) a single set of DPDT contacts, it could short the power supply and start it on fire!

On all DataEast/Sega power supply revisions, connector CN4 directs 18 volts (CPU controlled lamps) and 32 volts (solenoids) to the game. This connector is twelve pins, and has NO key pin. If connector CN4 is removed, it is very easy to replace the connector housing shifted one pin to the right or left! This will immediately blow either the 18 volt lamp fuse or 32 volt solenoid fuse, which are both bolted to the rear of the backbox.

#22 4 years ago

So I just got crazy and replaced every transistor and pre-drive transistor, the other 7408 chips and the TIP36c transistors on the PPB.

All good now and put back together.

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#23 4 years ago

For sale on Cleveland Craigslist: cleveland.craigslist.org link

#24 4 years ago

Cool! Shotgun approach works

#25 4 years ago

I almost just started replacing things to use my new Hakko

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