(Topic ID: 315433)

Dcs sound: How was it as great as it was, and why isn’t it used now?

By Alaskanzen

1 year ago



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#1 1 year ago

Having reacquired recently a pinball 2k machine, and having owned newer pins the last few years, I forgot how dynamic and rich the dcs sound systems are on the pin 2k systems. Frankly, I’d put it up there or over most modern pins. Do you agree? If so, why wasn’t this system or something similar used in modern pins?

I have to also note that the engineering of pin 2k as it related to part swapping, diagnostics, and for multiple other things like playfield swapping is superior in most ways. It really is a shame this platform was killed, it really is great and was ahead of its time. In some ways I’m glad the smaller playfield concept didn’t catch on, but otherwise I’m really enjoying owning a 2k platform again.

#2 1 year ago
Quoted from Alaskanzen:

Having reacquired recently a pinball 2k machine, and having owned newer pins the last few years, I forgot how dynamic and rich the dcs sound systems are on the pin 2k systems. Frankly, I’d put it up there or over most modern pins. Do you agree? If so, why wasn’t this system or something similar used in modern pins?
I have to also note that the engineering of pin 2k as it related to part swapping, diagnostics, and for multiple other things like playfield swapping is superior in most ways. It really is a shame this platform was killed, it really is great and was ahead of its time. In some ways I’m glad the smaller playfield concept didn’t catch on, but otherwise I’m really enjoying owning a 2k platform again.

It is in more then those 2 machines>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Compression_System#Pinball_games_using_DCS

#3 1 year ago

True, but Pin2K used a different kind of DCS than the “regular” Pins had.

Only DCS2 was capable to put out Stereo.
I mean the regular DCS was great no question.
But the stereo separation gave it a whole new level. Although WMS never took full advantage of Stereo in Pin2K… They could have made more out of it. But the entire Pin2K was killed to fast anyway.

Best use of Stereo separation made DE/Sega. But BSMT2000 sounds were just bad.

#4 1 year ago

Not doubting that DCS is good, however, in 2022, the technology to exceed the quality of DCS, at least the sound storage and conversion, is very cheap. A simple delta sigma DAC and a few GB of flash cost a few dollars and are better than DCS (you could easily store and convert hours of 24 bit stereo audio in perfect fidelity, and even with common lossy compression the audio can be excellent).

If a 2022 pin sounds worse, it’s a combination of cheap amps, cheap speakers and shoddy audio mastering and not due to fundamental inferiority vs. DCS. That’s why it’s possible to make pins sound great with aftermarket amps and speakers (assuming the audio files themselves are mastered well).

#5 1 year ago
Quoted from galore2112:

Not doubting that DCS is good, however, in 2022, the technology to exceed the quality of DCS, at least the sound storage and conversion, is very cheap. A simple delta sigma DAC and a few GB of flash cost a few dollars and are better than DCS (you could easily store and convert hours of 24 bit stereo audio in perfect fidelity, and even with common lossy compression the audio can be excellent).
If a 2022 pin sounds worse, it’s a combination of cheap amps, cheap speakers and shoddy audio mastering and not due to fundamental inferiority vs. DCS. That’s why it’s possible to make pins sound great with aftermarket amps and speakers (assuming the audio files themselves are mastered well).

I guess that's why I posted the thread and am asking the question. 20+ years ago, for what ever factors these 2k machines had (and have) amazing sound comparatively. Thoughts on pinsound etc.? I've been debating an upgrade to my Iron Maiden for awhile, do these speaker upgrades etc. bring out a better sound or is the fundamental issue the source material?

Quoted from Midway-Man:

True, but Pin2K used a different kind of DCS than the “regular” Pins had.
Only DCS2 was capable to put out Stereo.
I mean the regular DCS was great no question.
But the stereo separation gave it a whole new level. Although WMS never took full advantage of Stereo in Pin2K… They could have made more out of it. But the entire Pin2K was killed to fast anyway.
Best use of Stereo separation made DE/Sega. But BSMT2000 sounds were just bad.

I always assumed this was either the format or compression used in these files. Mid 2000 era pins (sound wise) are horrible.....

#6 1 year ago
Quoted from Alaskanzen:

I guess that's why I posted the thread and am asking the question. 20+ years ago, for what ever factors these 2k machines had (and have) amazing sound comparatively. Thoughts on pinsound etc.? I've been debating an upgrade to my Iron Maiden for awhile, do these speaker upgrades etc. bring out a better sound or is the fundamental issue the source material?

I always assumed this was either the format or compression used in these files. Mid 2000 era pins (sound wise) are horrible.....

I think they don’t use something like DCS anymore because current technology is much cheaper (at least the data storage and conversion tech) than the core of DCS.

With Pinsound and an external amp and good speakers, you can create a mix that can make your pinball machine sound as fantastic as you want. Not necessarily with the original audio data (because this can be low resolution and/or sampling rate, like LOTR).

#7 1 year ago
Quoted from galore2112:

I think they don’t use something like DCS anymore because current technology is much cheaper (at least the data storage and conversion tech) than the core of DCS.
With Pinsound and an external amp and good speakers, you can create a mix that can make your pinball machine sound as fantastic as you want. Not necessarily with the original audio data (because this can be low resolution and/or sampling rate, like LOTR).

Fair enough. Perhaps the question Im really asking is not 'why don't we still use DCS' but rather 'given the technology jumps etc. why is DCS sound still relatively better than current pinball sound, on average, out of the box'. What your saying makes sense to me.

In short: stop cheeping out on the sound, pinball manufacturers. You're fucking with my immersion and looking bad next to a 20 year old machine.

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