(Topic ID: 24704)

Data East speaker noise - ideas for a cure

By roc-noc

11 years ago


Topic Heartbeat

Topic Stats

  • 961 posts
  • 218 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 21 days ago by 2x286ps
  • Topic is favorited by 187 Pinsiders

You

Linked Games

Topic Gallery

View topic image gallery

20240403_213457 (1) (resized).jpg
20240403_175847 (1) (resized).jpg
20240403_175843 (1) (resized).jpg
20240403_175840 (1) (resized).jpg
Screenshot 2024-01-15 at 20.37.48 (resized).png
Screenshot 2024-01-15 at 20.12.41 (resized).png
Screenshot 2024-01-15 at 20.15.10 (resized).png
IMG_0945 (resized).png
IMG_5804 (resized).jpeg
94AE701C-5518-43C4-B52F-8FC03767E098 (resized).jpeg
D56D8EA3-8EBB-449F-BA0A-BC3FD0272195 (resized).jpeg
PXL_20230115_032422706 (resized).jpg
60E92D30-2687-480A-8242-068D65E0BECF (resized).jpeg
AC7026D1-8CF7-437D-9EA8-3AF740FF4B35 (resized).jpeg
5FCF262D-EAD5-4053-936A-F209742EF41B (resized).jpeg
AD2D171F-D9C6-4FF5-9B1B-D7974CEECC7A (resized).jpeg

You're currently viewing posts by Pinsider xpinpinball.
Click here to go back to viewing the entire thread.

#69 11 years ago

Viperrwk asked me to chime in on this thread. I apologize for taking so long to do so, but I wanted to review all of the schematics and wiring drawings I had for various games so I could speak directly to what I am 99% sure as to what is causing the hum described.

I am going to add a disclaimer though. What follows is based off theory and 18 yrs experience as a EE design engineer. I currently do not have any DE games in my collection so I could not go poking to verify my theories. If you choose to take my recommendations, and they work, please share it with the group.

I will address each component in the system, and by the time I get to the end, hopefully everyone will see how it is all connected.

OEM power supply
The original DE power supply creates a +12 and -12 unregulated DC voltage. For those who don’t know what an unregulated supply is, it is a rectified AC voltage is turned to DC and filtered with a big bulk capacitor. On the +12, the supply has 18000uf and the -12 has a 1000uf cap. The reason behind the 18000uf on the +12 is that this +12 is the input voltage for the +5V rail. If you replace both of these caps, the hum should be reduced. My recommendation is that to replace both with a larger capacitance value. These caps are bulk storage caps. They will decrease the ripple feeding into all of the downstream regulators. Simulations show increasing the 18000uf to 22000uf and the 1000uf to 1200 uf should increase the downstream regulator effectiveness by ~15%. Age and use have been working against us on these caps.

Comment on the XPin XP-DE5047
The XP-DE5047 also supplies unregulated +/-12, but there is a key difference. As mentioned above the +5V rail is generated from the +12 unreg DC. Unlike the OEM supply, which uses a linear regulator with a pass transistor to generate the +5v which is very inefficient (~55%), the XP-DE5047 uses a 92% efficient switching supply to generate the +5. It still has a large bulk capacitor on the +12, but it doesn’t pull as much energy out of the bulk cap to maintain the +5, so downstream ripple is still reduced.

OEM Sound board
This is probably the biggest culprit in generating the hum. The DE soundboard design takes the +/-12 V unreg DC and passes them to 7805(+5) and 7905(-5) linear regulators. The inputs to these regulators also have 470uf caps on them. In theory, what should happen is that they will work in conjunction with the bulk caps on the power supply board which should reduce the ripple even more. Solid theory, but there is more to this story.

In the mid-90’s most mfgs of 7805 and 7905 devices stated that they needed a minimum input voltage of at least 8-9 volts to maintain regulation. As far as linear regs go this is fine for the era. Modern equivalents claim they only need 7vdc to maintain regulation. If the ripple drops below the regulation point, the output of the linear will sag as well, so you now will have a 120hz signal on your output of the regulator.

The +/5V rails are fed into LM833 opamps, which will then transfer the 120 hz ripple into the MB3730 audio amplifier. I believe this is how the hum is getting there.

My recommendation for the sound board is to replace the 470uf (C31 and C52) caps on the inputs of these regulators with at least 1000uf caps. This gives you fresh caps, the increased capacitance will reduce ripple, which considering the age of the board, will allow it to keep the input voltage at a higher point, compensating for the higher electrical load caused by older components.

I would also recommend replacing the bulk caps on U31, U32, and U33. Primary power for these devices is the +12V regulated rail from the power supply. These caps (C60, C67, C74) should be replaced with the original value of 470uf.

DMD Display
The DMD display can have an impact on the hum as well, but only if it is a Babcock Plasma display. Why only Babcock? Babcock displays require 12V to operate which in DE games it gets from the power supplies regulated +12V. The internal structure of the SN75555 HV shift register used for driving the display counts on a stable +12V to properly bias internal transistors. Over time, I believe some degradation has also occurred with these parts because in theory, if the +12V is not rock solid, the ripple from the HV rails (60hz) can be induced on the +12V which can then be passed back to every device in the game using the +12V regulated rail, which includes the audio amps on the sound board.

Replacement of the 47uf cap at C18(?) should help this. I recommend a 100uf. No guarantee on this one because this path is also dependant on degradation of the SN75555 devices over time as well.

Summary
Not much to add other than I believe we are fighting an age issue. Keeping in mind that these games are 20yrs old, the electronics are feeling their age. A little refresh is always a good thing.

Brett
XPin Designer

#71 11 years ago

Hopefully not to wordy...we engineers tend to drag things out ;}

#75 11 years ago

The rule of thumb that I use with capacitor voltage specs is at least 2X of the actual voltage expected. For example C31 and C52 both have 12V input voltages so at a minimum use 25V caps. Larger is better and has no impact on the performance, but the larger ones should have a longer expected life span I feel.

Brett

#78 11 years ago

ChadH,

What about the power supply caps and C60, C67, C74 on the soundboard?

If you were local to Phoenix I would be there in a heartbeat with the tools of the trade. Where are you located at?

Brett

#81 11 years ago
Quoted from ChadH:

I don't think I have ever replaced any caps on the power supply. Which ones would be suspect? Or just replace all?

C1 and C4.

Promoted items from Pinside Marketplace and Pinside Shops!
$ 35.00
Cabinet - Other
Rocket City Pinball
 
From: $ 9,499.00
Pinball Machine
Paradise Distribution
 
$ 14.95
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
ULEKstore
 
$ 250.00
Playfield - Other
Avid Creations Wireforms
 
3,377 (OBO)
Machine - For Sale
York, NE
$ 27.95
Eproms
Pinballrom
 
$ 65.00
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
G-Money Mods
 
7,000
Machine - For Sale
London, ON
$ 10.00
Playfield - Other
Loop Combo Pinball
 
$ 1.00
Pinball Machine
Pinball Alley
 
From: $ 35.00
Cabinet - Other
Rocket City Pinball
 
$ 18.00
Lighting - Led
Mitchell Lighting
 
$ 27.95
Eproms
Pinballrom
 
$ 18.95
Eproms
Pinballrom
 
From: $ 9.99
4,995 (OBO)
Machine - For Sale
Plantsville, CT
$ 185.00
Cabinet - Toppers
Sparky Pinball
 
$ 18.95
Eproms
Pinballrom
 
$ 10.00
Playfield - Protection
UpKick Pinball
 
$ 15.00
Playfield - Decals
Metal-Mods
 
$ 130.00
Gameroom - Decorations
Dijohn
 
From: $ 9.99
Eproms
Matt's Basement Arcade
 
From: $ 20.00
Lighting - Led
Mitchell Lighting
 
$ 30.00
Playfield - Other
YouBentMyWookie
 
5,250
Machine - For Sale
Mt Zion, IL
$ 185.00
Cabinet - Toppers
Sparky Pinball
 
$ 19.95
Lighting - Led
Mitchell Lighting
 
$ 12.00
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
UpKick Pinball
 

You're currently viewing posts by Pinsider xpinpinball.
Click here to go back to viewing the entire thread.

Reply

Wanna join the discussion? Please sign in to reply to this topic.

Hey there! Welcome to Pinside!

Donate to Pinside

Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run without any 3rd-party banners or ads, thanks to the support from our visitors? Please consider a donation to Pinside and get anext to your username to show for it! Or better yet, subscribe to Pinside+!


This page was printed from https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/data-east-speaker-noise-ideas-for-a-cure?tu=xpinpinball and we tried optimising it for printing. Some page elements may have been deliberately hidden.

Scan the QR code on the left to jump to the URL this document was printed from.