Data East speaker noise - ideas for a cure

(Topic ID: 24704)

Data East speaker noise - ideas for a cure


By roc-noc

6 years ago



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There are 441 posts in this topic. You are on page 9 of 9.
#401 9 months ago
Quoted from altan:

Thanks for sharing crash
I did a quick test and it confirmed by thought, but added more. I eded up using Visual Audio as the other program didn't allow a more specific enough view of the frequency. Also, VA seems to do FFT transform and specifically told me my biggest points were
119.8 Hz (@ 41dB) and
839.8 Hz (@ 57dB)
And ... ~840 Hz is a harmonic of 120 Hz so I think this is a strong sign...

Ok, let's follow the dirty electricity suspect. Do you have an EMI filter you can plug in to the same circuit to see if it has any reduction on the hum? Generally it's a white box that plugs directly into the wall.

1 week later
#402 8 months ago

Sorry for disappearing for 10 days. I got tied up and then did a bunch of work without reporting anything.

Ultimately I wasn't able to tame the buzz/hum by recapping the DE sound board or adding 15000 uF (or more) smoothing to the 12 volt lines.

But as someone reported, I was able to solve the problem 99% with an external power supply. I feel this is a bit of a hack, but I'm tired of messing with this so I've wired it up.

If you hear constant hum that isn't the DMD or the lights, you can remove the hum for $15 and some of your time. To see if this scenario matches yours, disconnect the power from the DMD and go into diags. That will eliminate DMD hum and light hum.

In my case I was getting about 58 dB of hum. Now I'm getting about 34 dB. That's 4x less buzz/hum and pretty quiet. Also, there is no need to float the sound board (although that never really helped me).

I picked up the cheapest ATX power supply they had at Microcenter for $15. You only need 4 wires from the power supply output. Splice into those and make the right 6-pin connector for the sound board. If I was more patient, I'd order the appropriate molex connector and make an adaptor rather than splicing, but hey...

You also need to connect one of the pins to ground to make the ATX power supply turn on with power.

Keep in mind that the AC outlet inside the pin (JP in my case) isn't switched. By this I mean it always has power. To get around this, I spliced into the AC output that goes to the coin door (for the dollar bill adaptor). This was the only "permanent" change I made to the pin --- Although I could revert it fairly easily.

Here is the new power cable going to the sound board:

IMG_0082 (resized).jpg

Here is the splice from the ATX power supply:

IMG_0080 (resized).jpg

Here is how the switched AC goes to the ATX:

IMG_0081 (resized).jpg

Note I took this last pic before mounting the ATX more solidly to the cabinet and connecting it to the existing ground braid. I've mounted the ATX on the side so that any screws or other stuff that potentially fall down don't make their way into the fan or ATX supply innards.

... Altan
www.aaarpinball.com
(I'll eventually add this to my web site, but I've not been good about updates in the past 6 months...)

#403 8 months ago

Does anyone know what the current requirements are for +5, +12, and -12V on the soundboard?
I have an idea but need to figure out the current demands of a typical soundboard.
I have a "current" sensor board designed and at OSHPark; but I'm thinking it's going to be after TPF before I can build it and hook it up.

#404 8 months ago

Good job altan
You found pretty much everything that I found, and those same solutions that sometimes worked for others didn't work for me either. I call it a good hack, one that overcomes a problematic design and improves the games sound. The only difference is I used an open frame power supply. Using an ATX means you have a fan, so there's periodic vacuuming, watching out for failing fan, and the fans small added noise.

#405 8 months ago

Zitt
I could make a breakout cable to insert an amp meter in the supply, but I probably wouldn't get to it this week. If nobody else steps in, PM me and I will see what I can do.

#406 8 months ago
Quoted from wayout440:

Zitt
I could make a breakout cable to insert an amp meter in the supply, but I probably wouldn't get to it this week. If nobody else steps in, PM me and I will see what I can do.

Thanks.
I'm also working on a FAN noise reduction spacer... and a temperature controlled FAN controller as the fan noise has bugged me since I got the name.

#407 8 months ago
Quoted from wayout440:

Good job altan
You found pretty much everything that I found, and those same solutions that sometimes worked for others didn't work for me either. I call it a good hack, one that overcomes a problematic design and improves the games sound. The only difference is I used an open frame power supply. Using an ATX means you have a fan, so there's periodic vacuuming, watching out for failing fan, and the fans small added noise.

Thanks! I went back and looked at your posts... good stuff! They were probably the inspiration for my efforts.

At $15 it's hard to go wrong with the ATX approach. Yes, it has a fan... but I've had PCs w/fans running for 10 years and JP certainly isn't going to be powered on that much. It's also silent. I suspect it's running quite slow because there is little current draw. My gut feeling is that keeping the 120 VAC in the cabinet and covered is a good approach too.

Here's a picture of the ATX power supply mounted officially. I got 2 metal L brackets and drilled holes to match where the screws holes exist on the ATX.

IMG_0085 (resized).jpg

... Altan
www.aaarpinball.com

#408 8 months ago
Quoted from altan:

I got 2 metal L brackets and drilled holes to match where the screws holes exist on the ATX.

... Altan
http://www.aaarpinball.com

I'd buy that hack

#409 8 months ago
Quoted from wayout440:

I'd buy that hack

+1 especially if the molex converter is included (so you don't have to splice anything).

#410 8 months ago
Quoted from Bendit:

+1 especially if the molex converter is included (so you don't have to splice anything).

Me too. That would be a nice ready to go kit.

#411 8 months ago

Luckily it's not too hard and you guys can build your own hack

#412 8 months ago
Quoted from wayout440:

Yes, but just because the schematic says it's 5VDC and we assume that narrow spec range, what you really need is the "why" to include the diode in the first place. It's often used to fool the regulator with a false reference to change it's output voltage. Perhaps it could be that 4.8-5.2 isn't quite enough on some designs. I'm not sure on that one.

Yep regarding the diode and offsetting the internal reference voltage, While it might not help the hum issue, it might have helped to add a filter cap at the 'former' ground pin on the regulator (I'd have to look at the regulator data sheet to be certain that it wouldn't cause an instability) since the addition of diodes does introduce an impedance in that path. While likely not the case, it would also provide temperature compensation since the diode junction voltage changes slightly over temp (I think -2.2mV/C for sil diodes). Wouldn't have hurt if DE had put a inductor (plus another filter) between the +5V reg and the 12V to provide additional isolation to help clean up ripple reaching the 5V regulator via the 12V line. 'Should have, could have, would have' backseat engineering! LOL

1 month later
#413 7 months ago

Hi all, I'm a new member to Pinside and this is my first post.

I have a DE Playboy 35th Aniversary. I've recently had to do a lot of repairs on it after a the batteries leaked after sitting unused a while and fried a number of components on the CPU board. I replaced a bunch of TIP122 transistors and their pre drivers, a TIP36c that was shorted on the PBB board, the CPU, a 7408 IC that was acid damaged and one of the 7402 ICs that was bad resulting in the special coils not getting any power. the IC was constantly driving the transistor bank top right burning out the TIP122s I just replaced. I ended up burning through one set i freshly replaced before I realised the IC was bad. note this transistor bank previously almost set the entire board on fire, the traces had to be rebuilt using wire and solder as the board was that badly damaged. so these ICs when failing can cause catastrophic problems downstream when locking the TIP122s on. This pretty much brought the Machine back from the dead.

I'm now troubleshooting increased hum noise as it's pretty loud.. I do have a fairly noisy transformer even when the soundboard is unplugged (I guess the varnish has gone brittle and the layers/plates are vibrating a fair bit) but when soundboard is in the hum is noticeably louder. I've done a voltage test on the power going to the sound board looking for variance and when I reverse polarity to test the -12v (I.e. red on ground black on -12) multimeter reads 24v. does this suggest that the negative rail is being fed -24v? I'm also reading 4v on the 5v line.

I've already replaced the 1000uf capacitor (1000uf 25v was fitted) I swapped with a 1000uf 16v I had in spares, this didn't make a difference. I've also tried floating the sound board to avoid and ground looping that could have been going on but again no change. I'm wondering if the -12v (measuring -24v) and 5v (measuring 4v) could be the cause. any thoughts on this?

#414 7 months ago
Quoted from LPlates:

to the sound board looking for variance and when I reverse polarity to test the -12v (I.e. red on ground black on -12) multimeter reads 24v. does this suggest that the negative rail is being fed -24v? I'm also reading 4v on the 5v line.

First, it is not necessary to flip the meter leads around to read negative voltage. This is why you are getting a positive voltage reading. Leave the black on ground - I just alligator clip my black lead to ground and leave it there when measuring DC voltages. Then your meter will correctly indicate positive and negative voltages.

-24VDC sounds quite high, even for the unregulated -12VDC line, which can have a wide tolerance to begin with. The 4VDC on the +5VDC logic is unacceptable, if it even boots at all you are in for problems. The 5VDC circuit is fed -12VDC through TR5, so that could be a problem. I would want to disconnect everything, check my AC secondary voltages into the PSU, and then rebuild/repair (or replace) that PSU board until all its test points are in spec, before even thinking to hook any other boards up in the game,

#415 7 months ago
Quoted from wayout440:

First, it is not necessary to flip the meter leads around to read negative voltage. This is why you are getting a positive voltage reading. Leave the black on ground - I just alligator clip my black lead to ground and leave it there when measuring DC voltages. Then your meter will correctly indicate positive and negative voltages.
-24VDC sounds quite high, even for the unregulated -12VDC line, which can have a wide tolerance to begin with. The 4VDC on the +5VDC logic is unacceptable, if it even boots at all you are in for problems. The 5VDC circuit is fed -12VDC through TR5, so that could be a problem. I would want to disconnect everything, check my AC secondary voltages into the PSU, and then rebuild/repair (or replace) that PSU board until all its test points are in spec, before even thinking to hook any other boards up in the game,

thanks, my meter is an analogue meter and doesn't have a negative reading that's why I flipped leads around. the 4v was measuring on the 5v feed going to the sound board and the -24 on the -12 line through same connector I guess I'll trouble shoot some more by looking at components on the power board as I guess something is wrong there. game does now boot fine but I just repaired a whole host of issues on the CPU board and PBB. I'll check the feed going to CPU and PBB also. thanks again for the help.

#416 7 months ago

Does the hum problem go away if you get rid of the DMD. I bought a ColorDMD and will be installing it. I have seen a couple of posts that led me to believe it will. Game is Rocky and Bullwinkle.

#417 7 months ago
Quoted from Insane:

Does the hum problem go away if you get rid of the DMD. I bought a ColorDMD and will be installing it. I have seen a couple of posts that led me to believe it will. Game is Rocky and Bullwinkle.

This will depend on the game, as there are several types of hum problems. DMDs are notorious for having their own hum. Earlier in the thread I noted that the particular hum on my game (Maverick) was with the DMD removed and coming out of all three speakers. This hum would also change in intensity with the controlled playfield lighting. Not everyone was experiencing the same type of hum. Try your game both with the ColorDMD and with no DMD installed to determine which types of noise problems your are having.

#418 7 months ago

Playboy 35th anniversary doesn't have a DMD it's a gas charged alphanumeric display on the PB35th. the hum is there with the display disconnected. after rechecking the voltage readings on the powerboard test points are actually +12v (reading spot on) 4.6v (should be 5v) and -20v (should be -12v). seems I have a power issue somewhere on the power board. any ideas anyone?

#419 7 months ago
Quoted from LPlates:

Playboy 35th anniversary doesn't have a DMD it's a gas charged alphanumeric display on the PB35th. the hum is there with the display disconnected. after rechecking the voltage readings on the powerboard test points are actually +12v (reading spot on) 4.6v (should be 5v) and -20v (should be -12v). seems I have a power issue somewhere on the power board. any ideas anyone?

Quoted from wayout440:

The 5VDC circuit is fed -12VDC through TR5, so that could be a problem. I would want to disconnect everything, check my AC secondary voltages into the PSU, and then rebuild/repair (or replace) that PSU board until all its test points are in spec, before even thinking to hook any other boards up in the game,

#420 7 months ago

Many thank for your help wayout. turns out up to now I've found a dead c7 capacitor. (330uf 25v) bottom of it popped. I'll continue checking other caps.

#421 7 months ago
Quoted from LPlates:

Many thank for your help wayout. turns out up to now I've found a dead c7 capacitor. (330uf 25v) bottom of it popped. I'll continue checking other caps.

images (resized).jpeg

#422 7 months ago
Quoted from LPlates:

Many thank for your help wayout. turns out up to now I've found a dead c7 capacitor. (330uf 25v) bottom of it popped. I'll continue checking other caps.

Good detective work! Next thing you'll end up doing is trying to fix the flaky LCD big screen when it goes belly up!
lol

#423 7 months ago
Quoted from mbwalker:

Good detective work! Next thing you'll end up doing is trying to fix the flaky LCD big screen when it goes belly up!
lol

Been there, done that. My big screen is a Samsung I got for free (well, for helping someone install the replacement they bought.) If you run into one with picture problems like horizontal lines, you'll be opening it up so you can cover these ribbon cable bonds across the top edge of the TV with foam weatherstripping tape to put some pressure on them.

maxresdefault (resized).jpg

1 month later
#424 5 months ago

Just fixed the hum on my Hook with a Mean Well RT-50B 50W supply I got from Digikey: https://www.digikey.ca/product-detail/en/mean-well-usa-inc/RT-50B/1866-4307-ND/7706371

Worked like a charm, super quiet now, just a little buzz here and there in attract mode when the DMD is displaying.

#425 5 months ago
Quoted from wayout440:

Been there, done that. My big screen is a Samsung I got for free (well, for helping someone install the replacement they bought.) If you run into one with picture problems like horizontal lines, you'll be opening it up so you can cover these ribbon cable bonds across the top edge of the TV with foam weatherstripping tape to put some pressure on them.

Curious -- which Samsung and what did the horizontal lines look like?

#426 5 months ago
Quoted from G-P-E:

Curious -- which Samsung and what did the horizontal lines look like?

I'm not sure which model, as I am not at home...but here's exactly what it looks like. Wide spaced horizontal breaks coupled with ghosting.

b340873e_samsung (resized).jpeg
#427 5 months ago
Quoted from wayout440:I'm not sure which model, as I am not at home...but here's exactly what it looks like. Wide spaced horizontal breaks coupled with ghosting.

Sure you just didn't have it in the 3D mode? (jk - )

#428 5 months ago

oops...double post

#429 5 months ago

Does installing a Pinsound board help with any hum issues?

#430 5 months ago
Quoted from Ive:

Does installing a Pinsound board help with any hum issues?

Yes, my LW3 is pretty much dead quiet now. My DESW not so much.

3 months later
#431 54 days ago

I finally got around to putting one in my Maverick. I used the model like is in post #279 I bought of Ebay a while ago. The noise is gone! I can't believe how quite it is. I used the power from the Bill validator for this. I have one concern, If something shorts in the power supply there's no fuse to blow. I know there are a lot of people with a lot o knowledge so I figured I'd ask here and see what you all have to say. Would something on the AC side help at all or ground on the DC side or am I just over thinking this?

#432 54 days ago

It can't hurt to install extra protection. Audio systems for pins usually do not draw a lot of curent, and the bill validator is fused by the games mains fuse (8A). If you want to protect it further, your fuse should be on the hot side of the bill validator that feeds your add-in, and something less than 8A, so that it blows first in the event of a problem. Without doing calculations, I would suggest a 3A fast blow inline fuse. Turn on the power a couple of times. If the fuse doesn't blow - you are good to go.

#433 54 days ago
Quoted from wayout440:

It can't hurt to install extra protection. Audio systems for pins usually do not draw a lot of curent, and the bill validator is fused by the games mains fuse (8A). If you want to protect it further, your fuse should be on the hot side of the bill validator that feeds your add-in, and something less than 8A, so that it blows first in the event of a problem. Without doing calculations, I would suggest a 3A fast blow inline fuse. Turn on the power a couple of times. If the fuse doesn't blow - you are good to go.

Thanks, I'll add that and see what happens. I just would rather be more safe than sorry if the new added PS would have issues.

#434 53 days ago

Does anybody know if that hum goes away if you go to a colordmd?

#435 53 days ago
Quoted from Insane:

Does anybody know if that hum goes away if you go to a colordmd?

Only rarely, if your hum is actually caused by the DMD. Unplug your DMD and see if the hum goes away. Mine was not, unplugging the DMD had no effect.

3 weeks later
#436 31 days ago

Do the data east boards whate the same overdriven amp circuit as whitestar? There is a mod I read about that I did on my tspp where pots or just resistors are put in line on the mpu and reduce the audio signal which took away 90% of the hum.

#437 30 days ago
Quoted from Chalkey:

Do the data east boards whate the same overdriven amp circuit as whitestar? There is a mod I read about that I did on my tspp where pots or just resistors are put in line on the mpu and reduce the audio signal which took away 90% of the hum.

I brought this up almost 6 years ago in post #64. I've done the mod you reference on my TSPP and it really helps, and the Whitestar noise is similar to what we hear on DE games if I remember correctly. So it makes you wonder.

But then again, if the amps are being overdriven, would changing the 12v power to an external supply clean up the sound as has been reported?

#438 30 days ago
Quoted from stangbat:

I brought this up almost 6 years ago in post #64. I've done the mod you reference on my TSPP and it really helps, and the Whitestar noise is similar to what we hear on DE games if I remember correctly. So it makes you wonder.
But then again, if the amps are being overdriven, would changing the 12v power to an external supply clean up the sound as has been reported?

I think that depends on what is the root cause and type of noise. Sometimes its digital noise, sometimes it is 60 cycle hum, etc... There are several different noise problems experienced with these games, and what works for some types doesn't necessarily work for others. Overdriven amps tend to cause clipping and distortion to the input signal. I would think you would hear this distortion to the game audio if they were driven hard.

#439 30 days ago
Quoted from wayout440:

Overdriven amps tend to cause clipping and distortion to the input signal. I would think you would hear this distortion to the game audio if they were driven hard.

I think overdriven is the wrong terminology, or we're taking around each other. We're not talking about clipping and distortion due to the output level. The input level to the amps is too high and noise is picked up due to this.

I think the noise most people are referencing doesn't appear to be 60 Hz hum, it is too high pitched.

#440 30 days ago
Quoted from stangbat:

I think overdriven is the wrong terminology, or we're taking around each other. We're not talking about clipping and distortion due to the output level. The input level to the amps is too high and noise is picked up due to this.
I think the noise most people are referencing doesn't appear to be 60 Hz hum, it is too high pitched.

The terminology is correct. Driving the input level too high produces distortion and clipping, as well as amplifies the noise is what I was getting at. The noises I could hear were also not 60hz hum, but sounded like digital switching noises, unaffected by removing the DMD, messing around with board standoffs (grounding or floating) etc... They would distinctly change and react to the lamp patterns during the attract mode, but once a game was started, hardly noticeable during game music and sound.

It seemed to me that the digital and analog circuits could have some design flaws on the sound board, and the easiest way to isolate them was to install a dedicated power supply to the sound board.

#441 30 days ago
Quoted from wayout440:

The noises I could hear were also not 60hz hum, but sounded like digital switching noises, unaffected by removing the DMD, messing around with board standoffs (grounding or floating) etc... They would distinctly change and react to the lamp patterns during the attract mode, but once a game was started, hardly noticeable during game music and sound.

I think there are two types of noises. There's a constant background hum that I think was similar to what was heard on my TSPP before I did the mod that lowered the input level. It is higher than 60 Hz and can disappear by floating the sound board. I'm going off memory though.

And there is a noise associated with the lamp matrix and the sweeps in attract mode, which I think is the digital switching noise you are referring to.

I have both types of noise on my DE SW that is at home although the constant hum is much louder. So two types of design flaws probably makes sense. My JP is on location so I can't comment on it at the moment.

I haven't messed with a separate PS. Before I started operating games I probably would have. But as of now stuff like that is way down on the priority list.

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