(Topic ID: 24704)

Data East speaker noise - ideas for a cure


By roc-noc

7 years ago



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There are 507 posts in this topic. You are on page 5 of 11.
#201 4 years ago

My DE Jurassic Park did not respond noticeably to floating the ground as described above. Same hum with and without DMD attached.

I only turn the pin on to play, and game sounds swamp the hum, so not a huge issue for me.

1 month later
#202 3 years ago

Interesting Observation:

A few weeks ago I floated the sound board ground using nylon standoffs and washers. There was a slight improvement. Recently it seemed to me the speaker hum was getting a bit louder. So today I removed and confirmed - there is still a clear difference when floating the ground and when not.

For kicks, with the sound board not fastened to the backplate, I connected MPU's ground (from a test point) to the pads beneath the unpopulated screw holes one by one. When I touch MPU ground to the lower-left screw's pad, the hum clearly increases. Touching MPU ground to the other 3 screw pads has no effect whatsoever.

I'm not sure what is special about the lower-left corner, but I was able to reproduce 100%. Ground = ground = ground on the same board, right? I can appreciate ground loop effects and mismatches are at play here - across pwbs, but did not expect to see this result when connecting grounds to different points on the same pwb.

I would love to clear-up this humming issue. It is so noticeable and objectionable on this machine.

I had planned to replace caps as suggested upthread, but a PB tech friend suggested I not bother, "Its more a DE design flaw and aging components." I wonder if bringing in clean/regulated voltages from an external supply would help?

Any new thoughts?

1 week later
#203 3 years ago

try using a extension code and plugging into a for sure different power circuit in your house, maybe even a dedicated one from your panel, or try a small UPS, before you get to far into it.... mine was buzzing pretty bad in the shop/garage and after I moved it to the game room its gone...I did float the board as described in my post above.... had mine down to dull roar i could live with after shopping it, then bam gone on a different circuit.

peace, B.

#204 3 years ago

I just swapped my Jurassic park speakers to pinball pro ones and the hum is completely gone. It wasn't as bad as others but thought I would mention this.

1 month later
#205 3 years ago

I have a Tommy pinball(my first pinball that I just picked up), i notice the hum, but only when the lightfield is lighting up. More lights = more hum. Any thoughts?

-Jason

#206 3 years ago

I have 4 DE pinballs all with that buzzing sound when the lights flicker across the playfields. I fixed the issue in all of them by replacing pretty much all the caps on the sound boards especially around the sound amps . Had nothing to do with the power supply boards at all. Now my DE pinballs have great clear sound with no buzzing etc
Cheers

#207 3 years ago

Still using just Nylon washers under the screw heads on the sound board - 60Hz hum is 80% eliminated - I almost forgot about it.

Note: No need to put washers behind the board - there are no ground traces on the backside of the board near the screw holes.

I had a Rottendog power supply in my JP - this made the hum MUCH MUCH worse, even with washers. I repaired my DE power supply to replace a broken diode in HV leg and returned to the machine. Instant relief!

#208 3 years ago
Quoted from PoolDawg:

I have a Tommy pinball(my first pinball that I just picked up), i notice the hum, but only when the lightfield is lighting up. More lights = more hum. Any thoughts?
-Jason

Mine did the same thing during attract mode. The light cycle hum went away when I changed everything under the playfield to LED. My speakers still have a constant (but not too bothersome) hum along with the DMD. Might upgrade to Pinball Pro speakers and see how that works.

1 month later
#209 3 years ago

I acquired a Time Machine that has the DE sound board hum. I have recapped all of the boards, reflowed all of the header pins, replaced connectors and floated the sound board with nylon screws and washers. I tried running it with the displays unplugged (I realize this isn't a DMD machine, but I thought that I would give it a try). None of the work resulted in any noticeable reduction in the hum.

I couldn't stand the hum any longer so I did the PC power supply hack. I removed a power supply from an old Dell desktop machine and reworked it as follows:

* I removed all of the power and ground wires exiting the box by desoldering them from the board. I then resoldered one wire each for +5vdc, +12vdc, -12vdc and ground.

* A jumper was installed inside the power supply between ground and the "start wire" (PS_ON), which is the green wire in a Dell power supply. That allows the power supply to start as soon as AC power is turned on. It is normally connected to, and controlled by, the PC's motherboard. I'm not positive, but I think that is standard and ATX power supplies use the same colored wire. Be sure to confirm that by checking the schematic.

* I cut a 115vac power cord (to plug into the back of the power supply) and I routed the ground wire (green) into the metal box on the right side of the cabinet that has the fuse for the main power. I soldered the ground wire to the ground that came in from the wall cord.

* I cut the hot and neutral AC wires (black and white) on the pinball machine where they exit the on/off switch underneath the cabinet, and before the connector to the transformer, and soldered them back together along with the hot and neutral to the PC power supply cord. Heat shrink tubing was used to insulate the resulting connections.

* I put a fuse block with 5amp, fast blow fuses on each of the +5, +12 and -12 wires where the came out of the power supply. I then routed wires from the fuses, along with the ground wire, to a new connector that plugs into the sound board. The old power connector is laying next to the board and could be reattached at any time.

The power supply comes on seamlessly when the game is turned on (you wouldn't know anything had been added unless you look inside the machine) and there is zero hum coming from the speakers. I am OK with this hack as I did the work in a very neat manner and it has solved the problem with the damn humming. It is easily reversible if necessary as the factory power connection has not been removed.

Question: Did I place the fuses correctly in the power flow and what should their rating be?

#210 3 years ago

BTW I did fix my mine. It turned out to be a connector related to the original battery leakage. After I purchased the pin, I ripped out the Rottendog board and bought an original DE board to replace it but saw no improvement. Over the next year, I built up a collection of original DE boards. Tried replacing them all but nothing seemed to work and remove the hum. I even tested different revision boards.

The only thing left was the wire harness and ground system. I thought that maybe there was a bad connection in a molex connector that had been polluted by the original battery leakage problem that the Chicago tech had "fixed" with the Rottendog board.

So I cut out and replaced the two molex connectors that would have been dripped on by battery leakage. Once I did that and screwed the boards down again with metal screws and no ground lift, the hum went away. Only took me about two years of trial and error to figure this out.

That was my fix to remove audio hum.

#211 3 years ago

fixed my Jurassic by buying and installing pinball pro speakers.

3 weeks later
#212 3 years ago
Quoted from markp99:

Note: No need to put washers behind the board - there are no ground traces on the backside of the board near the screw holes.

Good to know! Getting washers on the backside of the board wasn't easy, so I'm glad it's not necessary as I'm just about to try it on my LW3.

1 week later
#213 3 years ago

On my JP, I floated the soundboard with nylon screws and washers which did drop the hum by about 50%. Based on this thread, it looks like two options are left that resolve some issues:

1. Replace caps on sound board/power supply board.
2. Purchase Pinball Pro speakers and install
3. Possibly look at DMD interference (doesn't seem to eliminate the hum when not powered on mine)

1 week later
#214 3 years ago

What does anyone think using shielded wire to speakers.If it is possible for the speaker wires to get induced noise due to the magnetic field of all the other wire that surround them in the bundles of wires coming and going to the boards in back box.
My D>E> Laser War has this hum as well and isolation of sound board did not help. I just ordered the 30,000 mfd cap to see if that helps prob a waste of money but i can always use it some where else and have already recapped my sound board due to its age Just a thought

#215 3 years ago

I just noticed today that only my Tommy's right backbox speaker has a slight hum - the left one only has a faint hiss. Even more curious as to why it's like this now. Floating the soundboard didn't seem to do anything for me, neither did neoprene washers under the screw heads.

#216 3 years ago
Quoted from fitter108:

What does anyone think using shielded wire to speakers.If it is possible for the speaker wires to get induced noise due to the magnetic field of all the other wire that surround them in the bundles of wires coming and going to the boards in back box.
My D>E> Laser War has this hum as well and isolation of sound board did not help. I just ordered the 30,000 mfd cap to see if that helps prob a waste of money but i can always use it some where else and have already recapped my sound board due to its age Just a thought

For $20-$30 you can use a PC power supply. Use the +12 / -12 / GND / +5 and power the sound board. NO MO HUM!

Here's one in my Laser War.

IMG_0015_(resized).JPG

#217 3 years ago

Thanks so much just ordered a power supply to try on mine Thanks for the detailed info

#218 3 years ago

Cool.

Make sure you tie the green wire to a ground, that allows the PS to turn on instantly. Also, not really shown in my pic, is the PS cords Ground is tied into the box (power cord in), then you must run the 2 other wires from the PS cord (brown (Hot) and blue (N) to the switched side of the cab switch.. If you don't and just plug in the cord to the aux outlet, the PS will be ON 100% of the time. Make sure you use a surge protector to turn your game on/off IF you go the aux outlet route.

Enjoy the silence!

#219 3 years ago
Quoted from Harvs:

For $20-$30 you can use a PC power supply. Use the +12 / -12 / GND / +5 and power the sound board. NO MO HUM!
Here's one in my Laser War.

Hey isn't this considered a hack

#220 3 years ago
Quoted from Pintopia:

Hey isn't this considered a hack

Yes, yes it is!

2 weeks later
#221 3 years ago

Would love to see a video on that hack.

1 month later
#222 3 years ago
Quoted from Rondogg:

Would love to see a video on that hack.

Me too!

#223 3 years ago

I tried running my audio board off a 12v LA battery and it was very quiet, totally fixed the problem. So I left it in there, has not leaked yet.......only kidding.
The 12v supply rail to the audio board is filthy dirty and only just 12v, maybe the 18000uf is knackered.
I also wondered if the wires are running in a noisy environment in the cabinet.
I noticed on the audio board there is a layout for regulation components that are missing and bypassed by the choke.
I think they were going to power it from a higher supply rail and then could not.

I am going to try to fix it properly but it is still not as bad as my 2 system 3 machines what with the turn on THUMP and hiss.

#224 3 years ago

DMD Hum trough speakers SOLVED! Had the hum throughput my speakers in the display panel.
Removed the grounding straps from the two display speakers. No more noise. Problem solved.

#225 3 years ago
Quoted from Pintopia:

DMD Hum trough speakers SOLVED! Had the hum throughput my speakers in the display panel.
Removed the grounding straps from the two display speakers. No more noise. Problem solved.

Would you be able to take a pic and point out which components were moved or removed. If not, no problem at all. I'm going to try and experiment with it sometime this weekend.

Recently, I floated the sound board with nylon screws and washers, and I feel it made a slight difference for the better, but not enough to consider it a victory. Hoping the solution mentioned above is my golden ticket as well.

Thanks!

#226 3 years ago

I would imagine this is what he means.

pasted_image_(resized).png

#227 3 years ago
Quoted from 0geist0:

I would imagine this is what he means.

Thank you, that's what I was thinking when I read it. I guess my question wasn't phrased thoroughly enough, as I was more curious to know where the straps could be moved to, or if they were simply removed altogether.

I definitely appreciate the pic and clarification.

#228 3 years ago
Quoted from davebart5:

Thank you, that's what I was thinking when I read it. I guess my question wasn't phrased thoroughly enough, as I was more curious to know where the straps could be moved to, or if they were simply removed altogether.
I definitely appreciate the pic and clarification.

I would think that the strap would just be disconnected and left that way.
Speakers already have a +and a -
I don't think it would hurt anything

#229 3 years ago
Quoted from 0geist0:

I would think that the strap would just be disconnected and left that way.
Speakers already have a +and a -
I don't think it would hurt anything

Great. Thank you for clarifying here. I'm going to try and get this done in the coming days. Fingers crossed!

#230 3 years ago

Tried removing the grounding braid. No difference. I have a lot of static coming through the left speaker only, does that make a difference? I attached another speaker, same thing. If it is just one speaker, is there something specific I should check? Already put in a new PS Board and floated the sound board.

#231 3 years ago

Prock What voltage do i need on the 4 x 4700uf cap. 25V?

#232 3 years ago
Quoted from davebart5:

Great. Thank you for clarifying here. I'm going to try and get this done in the coming days. Fingers crossed!

Ok, I tried disconnecting the ground braids from the speaker screws and unfortunately for me, the hum stayed. It did not decrease or increase in volume.

Last step for me is to replace the speakers in the backbox, as I have heard that does the trick for a lot of people. I'll eventually get to that since I've been meaning to enhance the sound quality of my TFTC to match the sub I have on it.

#233 3 years ago

I'm told that a Pinsound board will make it sound awesome and the hum is gone.
A little pricey though

1 week later
#234 3 years ago

Sorry the ground strap removal did not work for you.

As full discloser I did upgrade the speakers first, cabinet and backbox with no change(still had hum) then I removed the grounding straps from both speakers in backbox to the metal sheathing.

Try removing the grounding strap from the cabinet speaker as well. Easy enough and let us know.

Don

#235 3 years ago
Quoted from 0geist0:

I'm told that a Pinsound board will make it sound awesome and the hum is gone.
A little pricey though

Just curious if anyone has cleared up the hum by adding a Pinsound board on its own...

2 months later
#236 3 years ago

Thought I'd throw my 2 cents in. I had a bad constant buzzing in my Time Machine (not just when lights would flash - all the time). Went away once I tightened all the screws for the power supply board. Now I just hear a slight hum when the lights dance in attract mode. Much better. (Or maybe that slight attract-hum is what you all are trying to get rid of?)

3 weeks later
#237 2 years ago

I owned my JP for 5 months and I never had a hum. My JP then died, so I bought a new power board from rottendog and put it in. The machine started up right away but now there is this loud humming.

That was the only change. When you think of all the variables, the only things that changed were the connections and the screws. I checked to make sure the connections and screws are on tight, and they definitely are.

#238 2 years ago

MEuRaH,

I had exactly the same results as you with a Rottendog board. A couple suggestions:

1. Place nylon washers UNDER the heads of the mounting screws. This effectively floats/disconnects the sound board from the backplane ground. This issue seems to be a ground loop issue, made worse with Rottendog's board. (note - there are no traces on the backside of the sound board where it touches the backplane. Ground is made via the screw heads to traces on the topside of the board).

2. Rebuild (or replace) the DE power supply, and float it same as above.

With my rebuilt DE Pwr Supply board, and nylon washers - hum is reduced >90%. Rottendog board sits on the shelf.

#239 2 years ago

I forgot to update here in the past month or two. My TFTC had a loud hum with through the stock speakers. I reduced that by about 80% to a point where I stopped noticing it by floating the sound board with nylon screws and washers. I was cool with the results, case closed.

At the York show, I purchased a set of Data East Replacement speakers off the vendor who sells boards and parts in the Mayfair booth to see if I can enhance the quality of the TFTC music and speech. The speakers sound a little better than the originals, but the hum is now back full force and I'm not sure what to do from here since the sound board is still floated with those nylon screws.

I guess I'm back to the drawing board.

#240 2 years ago
Quoted from davebart5:

I forgot to update here in the past month or two. My TFTC had a loud hum with through the stock speakers. I reduced that by about 80% to a point where I stopped noticing it by floating the sound board with nylon screws and washers. I was cool with the results, case closed.
At the York show, I purchased a set of Data East Replacement speakers off the vendor who sells boards and parts in the Mayfair booth to see if I can enhance the quality of the TFTC music and speech. The speakers sound a little better than the originals, but the hum is now back full force and I'm not sure what to do from here since the sound board is still floated with those nylon screws.
I guess I'm back to the drawing board.

See this is why I'm confused. If floating took care of the hum in the first place, why would replacing the speakers INCREASE the hum?

Something's not right.

#241 2 years ago
Quoted from MEuRaH:

See this is why I'm confused. If floating took care of the hum in the first place, why would replacing the speakers INCREASE the hum?
Something's not right.

Agreed, it doesn't make any sense. Now, the original speakers weren't completely cured of the hum, but I definitely got it to be lower than it is now. Maybe I'll mess with the speakers and associated screws some more.

#242 2 years ago
Quoted from Rondogg:

Just curious if anyone has cleared up the hum by adding a Pinsound board on its own...

I had a loud hum and replaced with pinsound. No more hum. Stock speakers.

#243 2 years ago

The new speakers may just be more accurate and bring out that low 60Hz tone more effectively.

#244 2 years ago

When i detached the right speaker on my Lw3 the humming was almost entirely gone
any thougths on this?

#245 2 years ago
Quoted from jorro:

When i detached the right speaker on my Lw3 the humming was almost entirely gone
any thougths on this?

This is funny... I detached the ground on the left speaker and the humming doubled!

...... what?

are we on to something stupid? lol.

1 week later
#247 2 years ago

Just read the entire thread as I have a couple LW3 doing this. Thank you for all the tips and information.

4 months later
#248 2 years ago

On my LW3, I had a buzz that would match up with the attract lights blinking, listening closely, the buzz was only coming from the right speaker in the backbox.

I floated my sound board (w/ 2 sided foam tape) and the hum associated with the attract lights is GONE!!!!!

there is a quieter buzz that's coming from DMD usage but its completely tolerable compared to the buzz from before.

ALSO I had a BTTF that would make a nasty buzz noise constantly.To fix it, I put EVERY SINGLE mounting screw in on the motherboard, nice and tight. motherboard was missing 2 mounting screws, replacing them completely fixed the buzz.

#249 2 years ago

I just discovered that the noise in my Maverick is really not speaker noise at all. I've already been around the block with suggestions in this thread, and had insulated my sound board to alleviate background white noise. The other component of my noise is high pitched whine that switches on and off with the playfield controlled lamps. I converted those to LEDs and that never helped, in fact - it made it slightly worse.

What I discovered today while I was trying to isolate if the noise was power, soundboard, or migrating in from somewhere else such as inputs or speaker lines, is that my noise is not coming out of the speakers at all, or anywhere in the cabinet. The transformer and inside the cab is whisper quiet. The noise is actually coming from my motherboard, and as near as I can pinpoint it with my head in the cab, from somewhere in the lower right quadrant. Pulling the CN7 lamp column driver connector kills the noise, as I expected it would.

What I think I am hearing is piezoelectric noise, such that is sometimes heard with cheap ceramic capacitors. I can't seem to isolate the components in that area by touch...and I have not even heard of this effect with transistors or cement resistors. There are, what looks to be PET capacitors in the row returns.

Anyone else hearing something similar in the backbox of their DE game?

#250 2 years ago
Quoted from fitter108:

What does anyone think using shielded wire to speakers.If it is possible for the speaker wires to get induced noise due to the magnetic field of all the other wire that surround them in the bundles of wires coming and going to the boards in back box.
My D>E> Laser War has this hum as well and isolation of sound board did not help. I just ordered the 30,000 mfd cap to see if that helps prob a waste of money but i can always use it some where else and have already recapped my sound board due to its age Just a thought

I had the same thought and used shielded cable to rewire my speakers as well, mainly because that's what I had on hand. The speakers are not what is picking up noise. You should, at minimum, pull the speaker wires out and twist them together. This is very effective at cancelling out any unwanted noise, and run the speaker wires away from power wires.

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