(Topic ID: 24704)

Data East speaker noise - ideas for a cure


By roc-noc

7 years ago



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There are 507 posts in this topic. You are on page 4 of 11.
#151 6 years ago
Quoted from Pimp77:

Every Cherry display I've ever had buzzed horribly. Get rid of it.

Yeah - I should. But I can't hear it during gameplay and when I do hear it in attract, it reminds me to turn the machine off...

viperrwk

8 months later
#152 6 years ago

I read this whole thread because my Tommy hums a bit & wow I had no idea buzzing was such an issue for many people. I actually never had a game hum before of the 11 or so I've owned. I only notice the hum mainly in attract mode. Letting the board "float" didn't help at all. Just wanted to report that.

Could what I'm hearing possibly be the DMD buzz mentioned in this thread? IDK, again even DMD buzzing noise is new to me. I put my ear toward that area & honestly I can't tell if it could be from the DMD or not. Maybe somebody can tell me if Tommy has a humming type of display, I'm not real familiar with the DMD display names or what era's match them.
Honestly since I only notice it in attract mode I'm not too concerned, but I figured it was worth a shot to try to solve it.

#153 6 years ago

Simple test. Turn off the pin. Unplug the DMD power and data cables. Turn it back on and see if it goes away.

1 month later
#154 6 years ago

Great thread, I'm dealing with the hum problem on a Back to the Future I just picked up. Waiting for a new MPU board as the board in the machine was very badly damaged by battery leakage. Right now when I power up I do get the voice call out "Back to the Future" and a lot of hum. Once the new board comes I should be able to test the rest of the audio.

#155 6 years ago

Great thread, I'm dealing with the hum problem on a Back to the Future I just picked up. Waiting for a new MPU board as the board in the machine was very badly damaged by battery leakage. Right now when I power up I do get the voice call out "Back to the Future" and a lot of hum. Once the new board comes I should be able to test the rest of the audio.

5 months later
#156 5 years ago

I have this issue pretty bad on a Jurassic Park, I think it's the worst of any Data East game I've ever heard. We will try floating the sound board with nylon washers. But wouldn't you also need nylon screws since metal screws will still maintain a path to ground?

#157 5 years ago
Quoted from Crash:

I have this issue pretty bad on a Jurassic Park, I think it's the worst of any Data East game I've ever heard. We will try floating the sound board with nylon washers. But wouldn't you also need nylon screws since metal screws will still maintain a path to ground?

The nylon washers on both sides prevent the screws from touching the ground pads on the sound board. Could be verified with a dmm once in place though.

#158 5 years ago
Quoted from markmon:

The nylon washers on both sides prevent the screws from touching the ground pads on the sound board. Could be verified with a dmm once in place though.

And IIRC there's no through plating on the mounting holes so as long as you isolate both sides you should be fine.

viperrwk

#159 5 years ago

Wow whattya know!! Floating the sound board eliminated 100% of the noise! So even though floating the sound board doesn't work for some, it's the most sure fire way to solve this age-old problem.

Next I will have to verify the game is grounded. I want to get as much info on this specific machine (Jurassic Park) as possible. Any questions in particular you guys would like to ask about the boards etc. to increase the chances of success in the case doing this doesn't work for you?

#160 5 years ago

Just tried the same thing on a Lethal Weapon 3, noise is completely gone.

#161 5 years ago

Could this be explained in photos for a dumbass like me, I would love to eliminate this from my TFTC

#162 5 years ago

Guess I'll have to try this for R & B

#163 5 years ago

Would also like some pics and a link to where i can get said washers.

#164 5 years ago

Sweeet!!! Glad this thread got revived. I'll probably try floating the board with my LAH & JP

#166 5 years ago

Chad I was reading some of vid1900's posts in that Fire thread. He says if a component fails, shorts out, a cap dries up etc. that could change the intended path to ground, and the resulting difference in voltage/potential between boards would create a current in the ground line. But wouldn't this only be an issue on old (15+ year old) machines? I read some people talking about this also being a problem when the games were brand new in the early 90s, so evidently there was some other problem besides aging/failing components. We have previously established why we are seeing this issue (ground loops due to poor sound board design) but what exactly constitutes this "bad design" and why aren't all machines affected then?

Couldn't your theoretically install a diode on each board's ground connection to allow a connection to ground as well as preventing unwanted current from coming from the ground plane into said boards?

#167 5 years ago

Wow, glad this thread was bumped - I'm a gonna try plastic washers too!! Have it on Baywatch and Goldeneye but not horrible.......

#168 5 years ago
Quoted from Crash:

what exactly constitutes this "bad design" and why aren't all machines affected then?

Lots of designers count on ground being ground and do not optimize their design to eliminate their sensitivity to ground noise.

Quoted from Crash:

Couldn't your theoretically install a diode on each board's ground connection to allow a connection to ground as well as preventing unwanted current from coming from the ground plane into said boards?

Not really, it's a little more complicated.

http://www.epanorama.net/documents/groundloop/in_circuit.html

#169 5 years ago

Just to add - been running like this for 15 months and no problem. I still have the buzzing Cherry display that refuses to die though...

viperrwk

#170 5 years ago

Picked up nylon washers at Graingers a few months ago but never got around to floating the sound board until today. LAH is pretty quiet, Thanks Guys

#171 5 years ago
Quoted from Crash:

I read some people talking about this also being a problem when the games were brand new in the early 90s, so evidently there was some other problem besides aging/failing components.

Just plain ol' bad design.

This stuff was commercial equipment. If it hummed in a bar or bowling ally, who cared?

Caps back then were often 20% tolerance, so what worked in the design lab, might be totally different in the real world with a different batch/brand of capacitors.

Even today, audio components are produced (especially tube equipment) that need internal modification to be truly quiet. Iffy grounding schemes that don't play nicely with other brands of gear.

#172 5 years ago

Floating the board on my R&B only reduced the noise by 25%. I replaced the +12 and ground inputs to the board with a switching power supply and the noise was 100% eliminated. I had a friend that did this with a Star Wars and it worked as well. Just another option if the washers do not work for you.

#173 5 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

This stuff was commercial equipment. If it hummed in a bar or bowling ally, who cared?

+1 More design attention was spent on the visual aspect of how to get you to walk over and put your coin in, and then the gameplay to get you to stay and put more coin in.

#174 5 years ago
Quoted from OuttaSpace:

Picked up nylon washers at Graingers a few months ago but never got around to floating the sound board until today. LAH is pretty quiet, Thanks Guys

I floated the sound board on Maverick and it probably reduced the background noise 50-75% in my estimation. The remainder is probably induced noise, only noticeable during attract mode as its level changes when the lights shift patterns. During the game play you really do not notice it much.

#175 5 years ago

Ugh….
I just replaced my PPB for TFTC with this

http://rottendog.us/PPB001.html

And I noticed some intermittent DMD flickering and going out. Could this be the culprit?

#176 5 years ago
Quoted from Acampero:

Ugh….
I just replaced my PPB for TFTC with this
http://rottendog.us/PPB001.html
And I noticed some intermittent DMD flickering and going out. Could this be the culprit?

Installing the enhanced cable per the Stern service bulletin solved my problems of the display blanking out. Marcos sells the cable ready made too.

http://www.sternpinball.com/downloads/sb106.pdf

#177 5 years ago

Thanks wayout440 but TFTC is not a large display.

#178 5 years ago
Quoted from Acampero:

Thanks wayout440 but TFTC is not a large display.

Sorry, my bad. I would still suspect cable problems before the board. All I can suggest is to check them if you have not.

#179 5 years ago

Going to check the cables. I was going to replace the Power Supply with a new Rottendog to be consistent and try and reduce the hum but after hearing these horror stories I'm afraid.

#180 5 years ago

Just did the ChadH nylon screw thing on my R&B, though I had to use Neoprene washers because the nylon ones I bought didn't fit.

Initially, floating the sound board reduced the hum by 80%. The nylon screws/washers reduced it even a bit more.

Score! Thanks, ChadH.

Not bad for an absolutely non-tech, non-electronics type guy like me. Now I gotta figure out why the sound sometimes resets during gameplay and the DMD lags behind gameplay (I think it's low voltage to both the DMD and sound boards... but I'm not an electronics "guy")

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#181 5 years ago
Quoted from chadderack:

Just did the ChadH nylon screw thing on my R&B, though I had to use Neoprene washers because the nylon ones I bought didn't fit.
Initially, floating the sound board reduced the hum by 80%. The nylon screws/washers reduced it even a bit more.
Score! Thanks, ChadH.
Not bad for an absolutely non-tech, non-electronics type guy like me. Now I gotta figure out why the sound sometimes resets during gameplay and the DMD lags behind gameplay (I think it's low voltage to both the DMD and sound boards... but I'm not an electronics "guy")

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I'll have to try this. My TFTC hum drives me bananas.

#182 5 years ago
Quoted from Acampero:

Going to check the cables. I was going to replace the Power Supply with a new Rottendog to be consistent and try and reduce the hum but after hearing these horror stories I'm afraid.

Checked the cables and it looks like the DMD problem has gone away. Still have lots of buzz though.

2 months later
#183 5 years ago

another twist to this, JP,....just my right speaker buzzes...pretty loud, swapped speaker leads stayed on the same channnel , annoying for sure.....so I just lifted the sound board off the backbox...the loud hum went away from the right speaker....and I now have both speakers buzzing about half as loud as when it was just one.......doing the plastic screws Mod and think about this some more.

B.

#184 5 years ago

-a FYI, tip your board out and make sure the grounding is not showing on the back of the board, mine was so I stuck a nylon nut to insulate the board from making a ground contact on the backside.

#185 5 years ago

It's like cutting the ground conductor on a 3-prong plug, but if it gets you happy so be it.

#186 5 years ago

And if all else fails (replaced caps, new regulators, rebuilt PSU, etc.), an often overlooked aspect of hum from speakers is simply lead dressing. Coming from the world of guitar tube amplifier building, simply cleaning up your wiring by isolating certain wire runs and/or twisting certain pairs of wires like AC bulb wiring (if they aren't already twisted) can dramatically lower parasitic oscillation.

1 week later
#187 5 years ago
Quoted from Matt_Rasmussen:

It's like cutting the ground conductor on a 3-prong plug, but if it gets you happy so be it.

No, not really like cutting a ground conduction on a 3-prong plug. The ground conductor on a 3-prong plug is a safety ground. Audio ground is a little different. The safety ground is primarily and unused path, no current flow, and serves as an alternate path to avoid a hazard if something goes wrong with the circuit. An audio ground is not used the same way. Although both safety ground and audio ground are often connected to earth ground and both can be used as reference points in measurement, there may be multiple paths for audio ground - causing strange phenomena known as a ground loop - because of the design and components used. Removing a certain ground path in the audio circuit does not cause a safety hazard, and the act of removing a ground path may overcome deficiencies in the design or components that are causing problems such as noise or hum.

6 months later
#188 4 years ago

I made a very interesting discovery today... if your Data East/Sega jumbo DMD game has loud speaker noise (as in on par in volume with actual game sounds) check the part number of the sound board. I'm working on a Baywatch project that has a brand new X-Pin aftermarket power supply and perfectly working sound board that was recently repaired by Clive at Coin-Op Cauldron. The noise coming off that thing was terrible, and lifting the sound board's ground did absolutely nothing. The board was originally in a Sega Frankenstein, so on a whim we had the idea to swap them both back and see what happened.

THE NOISE WAS COMPLETELY GONE! With the sound board's ground lifted literally the only thing I heard was faint mains hum from the main transformer, and this was in a perfectly quiet room. So perhaps between games/sound board revisions the design has changed in such a way that ground loops can proliferate through the system if the board is installed in the wrong game. If you have a noise issue look up the board's part number in the manual for your game and see if it matches.

Now in my case, the Baywatch machine cleared up 100%. However, the Frankenstein machine the board was originally in (which was repaired with a few caps replaced in the process) did not clear up once we re-installed its board. Frankie also has an X-Pin power board. But that discovery alone I imagine could certainly help a lot of people banging their heads against the wall trying everything under the sun to get rid of the noise. Parts got swapped all the time when these games were on location. Give that one a shot and report back!

#189 4 years ago
Quoted from chadderack:

Just did the ChadH nylon screw thing on my R&B, though I had to use Neoprene washers because the nylon ones I bought didn't fit.
Initially, floating the sound board reduced the hum by 80%. The nylon screws/washers reduced it even a bit more.
Score! Thanks, ChadH.
Not bad for an absolutely non-tech, non-electronics type guy like me. Now I gotta figure out why the sound sometimes resets during gameplay and the DMD lags behind gameplay (I think it's low voltage to both the DMD and sound boards... but I'm not an electronics "guy")

I tried this... didn't really notice a huge change... maybe a bit better.

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#190 4 years ago
Quoted from roc-noc:

I just picked up a nice TFTC from the Chicago CL last week. I didn't notice the speaker hum until I brought it home.
After searching for a cure, this sounds like a common DataEast problem but without a clear solution.

2) Some say that just replacing the speakers with higher quality units will reduce the noise. I'd rather solve the noise problem first before putting money into new speakers.

Replacing the speakers will do absolutely nothing to reduce the 60 hz hum as the speaker is simply doing its job and playing the sound that is sent to it.
The hum is part of the audio and will be there even if you upgrade to nicer speakers. ( I know better speakers will sound better, but the hum will not be removed)

#191 4 years ago

The nylon washer trick fixed my JP that has had very loud speaker hum for the 10 or so years I've had it! Thanks to all of you for not giving up and finding a resolution!!

1 week later
#192 4 years ago

I've been slightly annoyed by the hum in my Checkpoint since I got it - it follows the illumination of the lamps in attract mode, and like others have said - doesn't really impact actual game play - but it's just annoying to know it's there. I discovered from service bulletin #29 that some speakers were incorrectly wired at the factory, and low and behold mine was one of them. Swapping the wiring did nothing for the hum, but my left/right stereo tests in diagnostics now work as they should. I'm going to give the nylon washers I go this week! Thanks all for the commentary!

3 months later
#193 4 years ago

Just did the nylon washer trick on Star Trek 25th and I would say it reduced the humming by at least 70%, quite noticeably better when the lights cycle through on attract mode, it's way better!

I'm going to be happy with the way it is now, thanks to everyone that contributed to this thread!

2 months later
#194 4 years ago

Wow....thanks to everyone who responded to this thread.....I have been dealing with a DMD resetting issue on my Maverick since I bought it. I kept searching for "DMD problems", did all the +5 volt stuff, but kept running into dead ends. Eventually, I traced the issue to the +12 volts going to the sound board that was drawing down the power supply......FINALLY, after weeks of painful troubleshooting I read this thread, and used plastic washers to float my sound board........problem solved.....clean diagnostic tests for the first time.....thank you!

1 week later
#195 4 years ago
Quoted from hooch333:

Wow....thanks to everyone who responded to this thread.....I have been dealing with a DMD resetting issue on my Maverick since I bought it. I kept searching for "DMD problems", did all the +5 volt stuff, but kept running into dead ends. Eventually, I traced the issue to the +12 volts going to the sound board that was drawing down the power supply......FINALLY, after weeks of painful troubleshooting I read this thread, and used plastic washers to float my sound board........problem solved.....clean diagnostic tests for the first time.....thank you!

Wow, that's great info to know, thanks for sharing! And congrats! Always feels good when a problem is solved.

I have also recently done the nylon washer trick on my Comet pin, and it really helped a lot, just saying.

1 week later
#196 4 years ago

I've had a similar humming issue on my de star wars.

I fixed it by tightening the bolts on my transformer VERY tightly using a socket wrench.

It made it seem like the hum was from the speakers when it was actually the transformer. Quick test, just remove the speaker connections from the sound board.

The transformers hum reverberates through the entire cabinet.

#197 4 years ago
Quoted from wayout440:

Installing the enhanced cable per the Stern service bulletin solved my problems of the display blanking out. Marcos sells the cable ready made too.
http://www.sternpinball.com/downloads/sb106.pdf

What did this service bulletin address, on my R&b, I lose scoring sometimes until the end of ball, I still have animations, just no scores, then when the ball ends, I get it back, is this something this would address. The link doesn't work...

1 week later
#199 4 years ago

Anyone have the instructions for the "Nylon Screw" Method? My Simpsons (DE) has a bad buzz in Attract Mode that corresponds with the lights

1 month later
#200 4 years ago
Quoted from LuchaBoyPIN:

Anyone have the instructions for the "Nylon Screw" Method? My Simpsons (DE) has a bad buzz in Attract Mode that corresponds with the lights

Get some nylon washers and screws from Home Depot, or other, and put a washer between the board and the mounting plate, then fasten with nylon screw. I believe the screw size is 8-32 x 1/2" long. I used a very small amount of glue from a glue stick to hold the washers in place while mounting the board, doesn't take much but how else do you keep them in place? Seemed to work for me, good luck! If it's DE then this should help you out.

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