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(Topic ID: 109376)

Data East Simpsons 5 bank drop target issue


By debaser

6 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 39 posts
  • 12 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 52 days ago by debaser
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There have been 6 images uploaded to this topic. (View topic image gallery).

De drop target wear spot.jpg
DE drop target washers.jpg
SAM_2961-634.JPG
SAM_2962-709.JPG
image-805.jpg
image.jpg

#1 6 years ago

I recently rebuilt the 5 bank drop target assembly on a Data East Simpsons. I cleaned up everything and installed new drop targets. After doing this the coil can no longer reset all the drop targets. The only way it can reset them is if only 2-3 drop targets are down. If all 5 are down it doesn't even get them half way up.

I was going to replace the coil in the machine, which is currently a 090-5022-00. I looked in the manual and it shows a 090-5008-00 coil being used. The 5008 coil is quite a bit bigger in size than the 5022. Does anyone know which is the correct coil to use? I would think the manual would have the correct one but I've seen one other picture of a Simpsons 5 bank target assembly and it was using a 5022 coil.

Any input would be appreciated. Thanks.

#2 6 years ago

Here are pics of my coil, it's a 5022. Hope this helps.

image.jpg

image-805.jpg

#3 6 years ago
Quoted from debaser:

I recently rebuilt the 5 bank drop target assembly on a Data East Simpsons. I cleaned up everything and installed new drop targets. After doing this the coil can no longer reset all the drop targets. The only way it can reset them is if only 2-3 drop targets are down. If all 5 are down it doesn't even get them half way up.
I was going to replace the coil in the machine, which is currently a 090-5022-00. I looked in the manual and it shows a 090-5008-00 coil being used. The 5008 coil is quite a bit bigger in size than the 5022. Does anyone know which is the correct coil to use? I would think the manual would have the correct one but I've seen one other picture of a Simpsons 5 bank target assembly and it was using a 5022 coil.
Any input would be appreciated. Thanks.

I would check the resistance of the coil to start. That coil should be plenty strong to raise those targets

#4 6 years ago

Just checked, mine is a 5022 also.

#5 6 years ago

I had this problem on my Sega Harley. Here's what I found:
The bar that holds the bottom of the targets in the assembly has washers between it and the assembly. It's really easy to loose these while disassembling without even noticing because they drop from between the bar and the assembly while removing the screws. If they are not there the drop target ends scrape against the bar when the coil fires to reset them and they will not make it all the way up. Check to see if the drops are rubbing on the bar, if they are add washers to make the gap wider.

#6 6 years ago

Other side of the pond, also 5022. Have a spare one which is also 5022.

SAM_2962-709.JPG

SAM_2961-634.JPG

#7 6 years ago

Is the coil getting pinched on the way up or does it have free range of motion and just lacking the power?

#8 6 years ago

I had this problem and I just stretched the springs slightly.
Reduce the tension in each spring and the whole thing becomes easier for the coil to lift.
Stretch too much and the targets don't drop reliably. So be careful.

This did work for me. Although there may be a better way. ?
This only surfaced for me after I bought all new springs.
The old ones worked fine and were not as strong.
So there really was only one fix in my case.

#9 6 years ago

Did you run a qtip with some simple green (or another cleaning agent) on it through the blue pawl where the rod runs through? And also clean the plunger. I've seen those so gunked up that it impedes the coils motion. Also, if you haven't, clean that long black rod too that spans the assembly. It gets gummed up.

In other words, reclean things. I think that's your issue here.

#10 6 years ago
Quoted from JDD:

I had this problem and I just stretched the springs slightly.Reduce the tension in each spring and the whole thing becomes easier for the coil to lift.Stretch too much and the targets don't drop reliably. So be careful.
This did work for me. Although there may be a better way. ?This only surfaced for me after I bought all new springs.The old ones worked fine and were not as strong.So there really was only one fix in my case.

My thoughts are this isnt a spring issue. They should be tight the way they come from the factory. I wouldn't go stretching them.

REclean the assembly parts focusing on the ones I mentioned in my last post.

Plunger
Blue gasket/pawl
steel rod

Use like Simple aGreen or the like

#11 6 years ago

Also verify all switches work in test

#12 6 years ago

DE drop target assemblies were a bad design in my opinion.

#13 6 years ago

I prefer them to Bally/Williams, simply due to less moving parts, so less to clean/adjust. I am also a fan of switches instead of the boards. Easier to adjust/fix/replace as needed.

#14 6 years ago
Quoted from dsuperbee:

I would check the resistance of the coil to start. That coil should be plenty strong to raise those targets

The resistance on the coil was 3.1ohms, which is what the new one I got is. I couldn't get the coil sleeve out of the coil so I replaced the coil. Unfortunately that didn't help as it's doing the same thing.

#15 6 years ago
Quoted from AlexG:

I had this problem on my Sega Harley. Here's what I found:
The bar that holds the bottom of the targets in the assembly has washers between it and the assembly. It's really easy to loose these while disassembling without even noticing because they drop from between the bar and the assembly while removing the screws. If they are not there the drop target ends scrape against the bar when the coil fires to reset them and they will not make it all the way up. Check to see if the drops are rubbing on the bar, if they are add washers to make the gap wider.

I'm thinking this might be the problem as the unit worked fine before I took it all apart, cleaned it and installed new drop targets. I see that one of the screws has a washer but it's on the head side of the screw. I thought this is how it was when I took the unit apart but I could be wrong. I just looked thru my parts and I don't have any extra screws that size. I'll have to get some and see if that does the trick. Thanks for the suggestion!

#16 6 years ago
Quoted from Blackbeard:

Did you run a qtip with some simple green (or another cleaning agent) on it through the blue pawl where the rod runs through? And also clean the plunger. I've seen those so gunked up that it impedes the coils motion. Also, if you haven't, clean that long black rod too that spans the assembly. It gets gummed up.
In other words, reclean things. I think that's your issue here.

Yeah, I cleaned up the whole assembly, the rods, plunger, etc really good. The whole assembly moves up and down just fine by hand.

#17 6 years ago
Quoted from Blackbeard:

Also verify all switches work in test

Yes, all 5 work fine.

#18 6 years ago

I had another issue I had to fix on this machine tonight. The laser kick coil had a wire disconnected and I found out why quickly. The TIP36c that drives it was shorted and the diode on the coil was bad as well. The ohms on the coil were good but I replaced the whole coil as the coil sleeve was seized up in it, from being locked on I'm sure. I also replaced the TIP36c which was shorted and the TIP122/2N4401, tho both of those tested fine. Now that is working again.

Another odd thing was in adjustments mode I couldn't change any settings with the start button tho the start button worked fine to start a game. Pulled the microswitch and found out why. Someone had soldered the wire to the wrong side of the diode. Changed that and it was working again.

#19 6 years ago

OK, Here is the deal with Data East Drop Targets!!!

The mechanism wears on the hinge pin for the brackets that lift the drop targets. This causes the bracket to droop further and further until the coil plunger is so far out of the coil or sort of cam'ed over so that it doesn't move with a smooth motion enough to lift all 5 targets in the allotted amount of time that the coil is on.

The easiest way to detect for this wear is to actually look at the top of the drop targets from the top side of the playfield. Knock the targets down, now check to see if the tops of the targets are flush with the playfield. If they are too low, then the assembly has some wear and you need to make some adjustments to get the targets and lift bracket to sit at the correct height.

Way back at the beginning of this thread AlexG mentioned some washers. To fix the height of the drop targets you need to add some washers to the 2 locations at the red arrows in the following picture. Only as Alex said you need to put the washers under the frame bracket and not directly under the screw. This will move the frame bracket away from the assembly, this in turn will limit how far the lift bracket will let the targets fall down. Sometimes there is enough wear that you will need 2 washers. I don't think I have ever put in 3. Also sometimes the hinge rod holes will be so worn that the assembly is garbage and you will need a new lift bracket. I believe all the normal places are sold out of these original lift brackets.

DE changed the drop target assembly 2 or 3 times after this version. Later ones have a nice locking bracket and adjusting threaded rod for fine adjustments of the height of the drop targets when down.

DE drop target washers.jpg
#20 6 years ago

Here is the spot where the assembly wears out

De drop target wear spot.jpg
#21 6 years ago
Quoted from kbliznick:

OK, Here is the deal with Data East Drop Targets!!!
The mechanism wears on the hinge pin for the brackets that lift the drop targets. This causes the bracket to droop further and further until the coil plunger is so far out of the coil or sort of cam'ed over so that it doesn't move with a smooth motion enough to lift all 5 targets in the allotted amount of time that the coil is on.

The easiest way to detect for this wear is to actually look at the top of the drop targets from the top side of the playfield. Knock the targets down, now check to see if the tops of the targets are flush with the playfield. If they are too low, then the assembly has some wear and you need to make some adjustments to get the targets and lift bracket to sit at the correct height.

There is no wear on my drop target assembly. Everything looks good and has fluid motion. The drop targets are flush with the playfield. When then drop targets are down, the bar that lifts them is flush with them as well with no wiggle room.

It just seems like the coil isn't getting enough power to lift all 5. If there are only 2 of any of the drop targets down, it lifts them no problem. Sometimes it can lift three but for the most part, with 3 or more down it can't do it. I installed a brand new coil as well.

I'm just not sure what else to try at this point. Suggestions?

#22 6 years ago

Dumb question, but does it lift all 5 in test mode?

I guess I'm wondering if there is a reason all 5 should stay down during a game....

#23 6 years ago

I pulled out the power supply and discovered that CN2 had a burnt pin. I also checked the caps with my ESR meter and all but one had low ESR (C2 was open). I'll have to order up a connector for CN2 and some new caps. I was getting alot of feedback out of the speakers when the CPU lamps turn on and off. Looks like it could be due to these bad caps.

I don't think this is going to help with the 5 bank drop target but it all needs to be done regardless.

#24 6 years ago
Quoted from Blackbeard:

Dumb question, but does it lift all 5 in test mode?
I guess I'm wondering if there is a reason all 5 should stay down during a game....

No. I'm testing the drop target assembly in the coil test mode. Also, if all 5 are down when the pin is powered up, it will try 4-5 times to lift them up (they hardly move) and then it stops trying.

#25 6 years ago

ANother dumb question: does it matter which targets are down when it works? Or is it totally random?

#26 6 years ago
Quoted from Blackbeard:

ANother dumb question: does it matter which targets are down when it works? Or is it totally random?

Totally random. I've tried every combination of 2 targets and it works fine. Add any third target to the mix and it can't push them up.

#27 6 years ago

Plunger moves easily in sleeve?
Bracket raises easily by hand?
No gummy/goopy residue on drop targets interfering with movement?

If you've eliminated all mechanical issues, the only one left could be the coil strength.

#28 6 years ago
Quoted from debaser:

There is no wear on my drop target assembly. Everything looks good and has fluid motion. The drop targets are flush with the playfield. When then drop targets are down, the bar that lifts them is flush with them as well with no wiggle room.
It just seems like the coil isn't getting enough power to lift all 5. If there are only 2 of any of the drop targets down, it lifts them no problem. Sometimes it can lift three but for the most part, with 3 or more down it can't do it. I installed a brand new coil as well.
I'm just not sure what else to try at this point. Suggestions?

Put the washers back in anyway and give it a try. I run into this issue monthly with DE games and it's always just an adjustment on the later games or adding washers on the earlier games.

#29 6 years ago
Quoted from kbliznick:

Put the washers back in anyway and give it a try. I run into this issue monthly with DE games and it's always just an adjustment on the later games or adding washers on the earlier games.

I'll give that a go once I get the parts for the power supply and get that put back in the machine. Thanks.

#30 6 years ago
Quoted from kbliznick:

Put the washers back in anyway and give it a try. I run into this issue monthly with DE games and it's always just an adjustment on the later games or adding washers on the earlier games.

Ok, so I got the power supply all fixed up. I tried putting 1 washer at each end per your picture. This caused the drop targets to be sticking up over the playfield. Even with the washers, the coil could still not lift all five targets. The most it can lift is two.

I even tried replacing the plunger/link and that didn't change anything either. At this point I'm at a loss. It's like the coil is just not strong enough to lift it. It's a brand new coil, new coil sleeve, new plunger/link, new drop targets, cleaned up assembly, no excessive wear, etc. Not sure what else to try at this point.

Any ideas?

#31 6 years ago

check the connectors on the aux driver board for cold solder joints on the male pins on the board. This board is a 1 sided design and the pins are highly prone to cold solder joints. Also check out the fuse sockets on this board. They are crap and like to break off on one side. I just repaired this board on a Sega Batman today and 4 of the clips were shot and had to reflow the solder on more than half of the connectors. Either of these 2 problems can cause reduce the current.

Check the fuse clips on the power supply while you are looking.

Actually strike most of what I just wrote. I just checked the manual and the 5 bank coil is probably #22 (the numbers on the chart on page 26 of the manual don't match whats in the picture). This means that it's in the special solenoid section of the MPU board. Maybe try replacing the TIP102 and the 4401 pre-driver and possibly the 7402 chip. Also check out any resistors in that circuit. Aside from the GI these circuits tend to experience more damage on DE and system 11 games than any other parts of the system.

Worst case if you still can't get it to work, try swapping the coil to a stronger coil. You can try a 22-600.

Also note that the length of the coil pulse in the test menu is sometimes too short to fully lift drop target banks. Best to confirm this in game play. This applies to most of the different manufacturers.

2 weeks later
#32 5 years ago

I got busy with other projects and I finally got a chance to dig back into this problem tonight and I managed to fix it. In coil test, I noticed that three of the flasher lights would trigger whenever I fired the 5 bank drop target coil, which I thought was odd. All three of these flashers and 5 bank drop target coil share the same red power cable. So, I looked at the red cables for those flashers and they were fine. So then I checked the red cable for the other coils that daisy chain on that line as well. Sure enough, one of the two red wires going to a pop bumper had a wire that was just barely hanging on. When I tugged on the wire, it broke right off. Bingo!

So I resoldered the wire and sure enough, that fixed it. Kinda mad at myself I didn't figure this out sooner. I had visually inspected all the red wires previously but it wasn't until I actually tugged on each one was I able to find the culprit.

Time to play some Simpsons...

"Lock the ball man! Shoot it!"

#33 5 years ago

Well done! Enjoy the game!

#34 5 years ago

Glad you found it AND that you posted the fix.

Grats!

2 weeks later
#35 5 years ago

Sometimes it's the simplest solution that gets overlooked.

5 years later
#36 6 months ago

Raising the dead as this is apparently a common thing, went down same path until reading this thread, and then viola, there was the red wire hanging from pop bumper! Thank you!

1 month later
#37 5 months ago
Quoted from blairan213:

Raising the dead as this is apparently a common thing, went down same path until reading this thread, and then viola, there was the red wire hanging from pop bumper! Thank you!

Glad it helped fix your problem!

3 months later
#38 54 days ago

Debaser, and others, thanks so much for all the advice. i just bought my Simpsons yesterday with non working target bank. I cleaned everything and added washers where they were missing. The coil had been replaced and the person who installed it just twisted the wires, no solder. I soldered them, but no luck. followed the red wire back to the bumpers...low and behold, it was detached. Soldered it on and everything is good. Thanks again!!!!

#39 52 days ago
Quoted from evslow:

Debaser, and others, thanks so much for all the advice. i just bought my Simpsons yesterday with non working target bank. I cleaned everything and added washers where they were missing. The coil had been replaced and the person who installed it just twisted the wires, no solder. I soldered them, but no luck. followed the red wire back to the bumpers...low and behold, it was detached. Soldered it on and everything is good. Thanks again!!!!

Glad it helped. Nice work!

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