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(Topic ID: 256284)

DATA EAST - Lethal Weapon 3 - long boot, no sound - OK after "warmup"


By androspl

11 months ago



Topic Stats

  • 41 posts
  • 5 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 43 days ago by androspl
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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#1 11 months ago

Hello,
I have a problem with my lw3. One day it started to "energize" coils while powering on the machine. And if I hold 2-3 seconds - fuses in my home were blown.
(it was something with CN11 on the CPU) - after a check - there was one transistor blown. After replacing it with a new one, machine starts up (the "energizing coil" sound is still there but it is much shorter now) and there is nothing on the DMD (i have checked with another DMD - so DMD is not the reason) - for like few minutes (1-2, I didnt time it...) THEN the animations show up (and PIA led on the CPU is finally turned off) but there is no sound.
So when I leave the pinball turned on for few another minutes - the sounds start to be heard...at first stuttering and restarting, but after a while it is ok - I can play and everything is ok. Turninig off and turning on again - boots up instantly, with sound etc...
So it looks like after a "warm up" it is ok.. pin is kept in 16-18 C... Reseating the connectors didn't help with it...
do you have any idea what might be causing this weird behaviour? I have NVRAM since some time but that is not the reason..
Thank you for all the help.

#2 10 months ago

fuses in my home were blown.
Do you have too many things plugged in on that outlet.

16-18 C is about 62 through 64 degrees ferinheight that is a bit cold for a pin so when you power on the machine give it about 10-15 minutes to warm up.Try it and see if this makes any difference.Post back the outcome

#3 10 months ago

Nah only 1 pinball to the socket. There was 1 broken transistor before and it was causing the fuses to blow. But it's exchange for a new one has fixed the fuses blow but all other problems have remained.. as I have written before if I keep the pinball turned on for some time dmd will start showing animations and then after another few minutes the sound starts to stutter and then it Is ok.. but that "warmup" takes some time and during summer there were no such problem

#4 10 months ago

check the voltages on the power supply on power up and see if they creep up. I am just about 100% positive you only need to redo caps on that power supply and it will be good to go. Bridge may be getting tired as well and these suffer from bad header pins. Post a picture of the board if you like.

In particular The 2 small ones at the bottom left and bottom right of the big heat sink. There is not a data east game I have owned that did not need these 2 replaced soon as I got the game home. They always leak. Use a higher voltage but same value of cap to ensure long life.
I can look at my manual if you need actual location numbers and cap values.
Easy fix tho. Great game.

#5 10 months ago

5 volt caps on power supply are bad, I thinks c2 is the one, but don't have schematic in front of me

#6 10 months ago

Yup those 2 are the ones I said to replace. I believe one is a 100uf and the other is a 330 uf but check your schematic. One has a leg attached to the bridge rect. and the other is right by the connector on the left side of the board below the heat sink.
Replace them with higher voltage examples.

#7 10 months ago

5 bucks says they are leaking. Mine were when I got them. Lw3 JP RnB all of them had leaky bad caps there.

#8 10 months ago

Thank you for all replies.
Below pics of my power pcb. Can you see something looking suspicious? I am not an expert of course but I haven't seen any leak do far..
Thanks again!!

IMG_20191202_201445 (resized).jpgIMG_20191202_201448 (resized).jpgIMG_20191202_201429 (resized).jpgIMG_20191202_201413 (resized).jpgIMG_20191202_201409 (resized).jpg
#9 10 months ago

Ok from what I can see it looks like c2 has been leaking a little. Replace that and c7 as well. Before you do though try pressing on the fuses hard into the board. If the holders y out right away replace them. Weak fuse holders are extremely common on data east games. Replace with quality parts. Upgrade the voltage rating of the caps to 50 v at least They will last WAY longer.
It is advisable to take voltage readings before you begin as well. If the bridge is slowing waking up after being on for a while replacing the caps will not help.
The caps need doing regardless

Upgrade the bridge to a 3506 lug bridge if its failing. IE if the fuse clips are good and your 12v is low and slowly creeps up over time its time to replace it. Report back with the voltage readings from the power supply test points when first turned on.

#10 10 months ago

Are you able to use a DMM? I can send you a link of how to if you need. Get a good quality meter if you do not have one.
No worries. You'll get it figured out.

#11 10 months ago

plus the 5 volt regulator supply fuses look dirty or corroded. remove clean replace. they are the 2 7a SBs beside each other on their own.
Check all the rest as well.

#12 10 months ago

I have a DMM, not the highest quality, but it helped me in the past to fix another pin.
I am not electrician though.. if you could explain how to measure correctly, that would help

I will try today to move and clean the fuses.. what is the type of the bridge rectifier (CM3501?KBPC 3506?) i want to order it together with the capacitors.
So the capacitors may cause the short powering of the coils when turnining on the maschine?

#13 10 months ago

3506 is what you want. 3501 is 100 volt max and 3506 is 600 volt max. Much better part . Most games flash power to coils on power up [at least the older ones do] But repairing the power supply may lessen or eliminate that. Game should fire and boot up quick not take forever. All kinds of weird things happen when low power condition occurs.
Set to dc volts and place the ground probe to ground and put the positive on the top right corner power supply test points. Let me know what you find.

#14 10 months ago
Quoted from Hawk007:

3506 is what you want. 3501 is 100 volt max and 3506 is 600 volt max. Much better part . Most games flash power to coils on power up [at least the older ones do] But repairing the power supply may lessen or eliminate that. Game should fire and boot up quick not take forever. All kinds of weird things happen when low power condition occurs.
Set to dc volts and place the ground probe to ground and put the positive on the top right corner power supply test points. Let me know what you find.

Well I dont know if if measure correctly I set dmm as per photo below. Black probe went to ground below the test points and red onto top right corner test point. I got -136,7 something

IMG_20191203_220848 (resized).jpg
#15 10 months ago

You can use the cabinet ground strap that wraps around everything. Can use an alligator clip to keep it in place while you measure with the other hand. set it to 200 which is 3 more clicks to the right and measure again. Do be careful. Only touch the one test point at a time and keep your hand on the probe.

As an important safety note, When measuring HV keep other hand in your back pocket that way no errant shocks across your heart.

If you are unsure at all find a tech or a fellow pinsider close to you or someone with electrical knowledge to walk you through it. Basic skills are universal when dealing with electricity.

Additionally you can go to pinrepair.com and click on the beginners link and read away. Clay's guides are excellent.

#16 10 months ago
Quoted from Hawk007:

You can use the cabinet ground strap that wraps around everything. Can use an alligator clip to keep it in place while you measure with the other hand. set it to 200 which is 3 more clicks to the right and measure again. Do be careful. Only touch the one test point at a time and keep your hand on the probe.
As an important safety note, When measuring HV keep other hand in your back pocket that way no errant shocks across your heart.
If you are unsure at all find a tech or a fellow pinsider close to you or someone with electrical knowledge to walk you through it. Basic skills are universal when dealing with electricity.
Additionally you can go to pinrepair.com and click on the beginners link and read away. Clay's guides are excellent.

Well that was good enough for me. So top right 14.2, top left 10,4, down left 4.2. if I am doing it right

#17 10 months ago

Ok awesome! Good job. Your -12 is fine and your 12 volts is very low and so is the 5 volts. Replace those 2 caps I suggested and read the test points again. The 5 volt section can drag down the bridge making the 12 volt low when the caps are bad.
Let me know what you get for voltages after the caps are done.
Cheers

#18 10 months ago
Quoted from Hawk007:

Ok awesome! Good job. Your -12 is fine and your 12 volts is very low and so is the 5 volts. Replace those 2 caps I suggested and read the test points again. The 5 volt section can drag down the bridge making the 12 volt low when the caps are bad.
Let me know what you get for voltages after the caps are done.
Cheers

OK i am ordering replacement caps today, when I get them and manage to perform the de and resoldering operation, I will debrief asap
thank you for your time and help!

#19 10 months ago

This has been a great thread. Im gonna test mine too this weekend as I have random dmd issues and think this may be the culprit!

#20 10 months ago

Actually Mahoyvan yours may be the dmd controller board power supply header. They very often have weak connectors and make a faulty connection to the 5 volts. Try redoing the connector with trifurcon pins first.

#21 10 months ago

Can you tell me the type of c7? It though it was the same but it is not

#22 10 months ago

c7 is a 330uf 25v radial electrolytic cap. Get 50v instead. Same thing but better part. The other one is c2 which is a 100uf cap. get 50 volt also in radial .
Should be some better readings on your test points after that.

#23 10 months ago
Quoted from Hawk007:

c7 is a 330uf 25v radial electrolytic cap. Get 50v instead. Same thing but better part. The other one is c2 which is a 100uf cap. get 50 volt also in radial .
Should be some better readings on your test points after that.

Damn so I got correct ones but the c7 replacement is bigger than the old one. Ok need to find some time and arrange operation I will report back after it is finished thanks!

IMG_20191209_081823 (resized).jpg
#24 10 months ago

does not matter if they are bigger. Higher the voltage usually the bigger they are. Only matters if you have a size constraint which you do not. Those fit right in where they should. I have put larger ones in the same spots.

More important to make sure to remove the old ones very carefully. Also, once new ones are installed, make sure they meter out to where they should connect too to make sure they are making good contact.

Almost there! hang in there eh.
Cheers

#25 10 months ago

Ok so I did the thing. C2 and C7. It works perfectly now. I tried once and it boots at once with sound etc. You're the man. Thank you that was a great help with such few facts given.
No powering the coils also!!
There was leak from c2 which has cut the circuit. Done it with a "bridge" or how it is called,on the other side. Flawless victory. I am really grateful for all the time you have sacrificed for my problem!! Many thanks once again!

#26 10 months ago

Hey great job! Glad I could help. Always happy to lend a hand. Fun game.
As your game says...Were back in action!
Cheers!

#27 10 months ago
Quoted from Hawk007:

Hey great job! Glad I could help. Always happy to lend a hand. Fun game.
As your game says...Were back in action!
Cheers!

yup.. great game... maybe not so deep like some other pins, but is way way underrated.. EVERYBODY DANCE NOW!

thanks again, it boots everytime like it was a new one!

2 weeks later
#28 9 months ago
Quoted from Hawk007:

Hey great job! Glad I could help. Always happy to lend a hand. Fun game.
As your game says...Were back in action!
Cheers!

well.. here we go again..
I was smashing the previous hi score on LW3 and I got REPLAY - the kicker coil - kicked BUT it stayed this way so I turned off the maschine and got my head under the playfield - So as soon as I power up the maschine - this coil wents ON and stays this way causing a lot of noise (so it is powering during boot and stays that way buzzing etc - I was not waiting more than 2-3 seconds because i was afraid something might burn once again. The coil is heating rapidly.
What might be causing this? any guesses?

#29 9 months ago

yup. easy peasy. Check the coil first to see if that's what fried the driving transistor. If less than 2 ohms clip the diode and test again if still less than 2 ohms replace coil. If its fine after clipping diode replace the diode with another 1n4004.

After that check the driving transistor for the kicker because it is bad and needs replacing. Test components up stream to make sure that's as far as it went.

And it may not be the coil. Sometimes transistors just go. For example I had one go for no reason in my TAXI just age and I pulled the board and replaced it everything else was fine. put it back in and 2 games later took out a different one. Same thing just failed from age.
Very common to happen no sweat.

#30 9 months ago
Quoted from Hawk007:

yup. easy peasy. Check the coil first to see if that's what fried the driving transistor. If less than 2 ohms clip the diode and test again if still less than 2 ohms replace coil. If its fine after clipping diode replace the diode with another 1n4004.
After that check the driving transistor for the kicker because it is bad and needs replacing. Test components up stream to make sure that's as far as it went.
And it may not be the coil. Sometimes transistors just go. For example I had one go for no reason in my TAXI just age and I pulled the board and replaced it everything else was fine. put it back in and 2 games later took out a different one. Same thing just failed from age.
Very common to happen no sweat.

Ok first things first - knocker assy was put together from parts which I had near me coil doesn't have a diode. I tried to measure the coil - please see picture if I did it ok. I have desoldered it (and now it won't buzz! If I measured correctly is is far from 3 ohms? (It is all the time below 2) if it fried and needs to be replaced? What transistor should be replaced? Q5? Or Q39? Can I check transistors without desoldering then from the PCB?
Thank you !!
IMG_20191230_230353 (resized).jpg

#31 9 months ago

I will check the schematic and see. As for checking the coil you need to set your meter to 200 ohm setting . Or 6 clicks or notches to the left. Then retest.
Yes you can test transistors in the game on the board it just can be tricky due to access sometimes. You want to test Q 5 on the PPB board first and that coil needs a diode on it thats why the transistor blew as soon as it fired.
Do you know how to install one ?
Let me know what the coil reads and we can go from there.
Cheers

#32 9 months ago
Quoted from Hawk007:

I will check the schematic and see. As for checking the coil you need to set your meter to 200 ohm setting . Or 6 clicks or notches to the left. Then retest.
Yes you can test transistors in the game on the board it just can be tricky due to access sometimes. You want to test Q 5 on the PPB board first and that coil needs a diode on it thats why the transistor blew as soon as it fired.
Do you know how to install one ?
Let me know what the coil reads and we can go from there.
Cheers

Ok so after PROPER measuring it appears that coil is ok 3.9ohms... so q5 has sacrificed itself due to lack of diode? Q5 is Tip36c?
I don't know at this point how to install diode I will look on other 2-lug coils and do the same or maybe should I do it with a little bit of thinking
What type of diode should I use? Could you please explain to a noob how to properly solder it?
And why my assy was working so long and finally blew ?
Thank you! And Happy new year!!!

#33 9 months ago

#34 9 months ago

coil is fine but needs a diode. 1n4004 is the type . Install across the terminals on the coil like this...purple and grey wire to non banded side of diode and yellow and violet wire to banded side of diode. Understand what I mean?
And the tip 36 is dead and needs replacing for sure.
Do you have a temp controlled soilder station?
Hang in there. Almost done.

#35 9 months ago

And you are very welcome and happy new year back at ya my friend! CHEERS!

#36 9 months ago

the diode acts as a shunt or block for power to not spike back to the logic upon firing. Kind of like a one way valve for water but for power.
With no diode there as soon as it fired it back spiked and killed logic components. Examine other coils on your game and install the diode the same way and attach the wires to the terminals I listed earlier. Power ALWAYS goes to the banded side of the diode.

#37 9 months ago
Quoted from Hawk007:

coil is fine but needs a diode. 1n4004 is the type . Install across the terminals on the coil like this...purple and grey wire to non banded side of diode and yellow and violet wire to banded side of diode. Understand what I mean?
And the tip 36 is dead and needs replacing for sure.
Do you have a temp controlled soilder station?
Hang in there. Almost done.

Nope.. no temperature control unfortunately.
Ok ppb is ready for operation tip36c also.. tomorrow I will try to perform the surgery
Diodes are ordered and when they arrive I will solder it to the coil.. I will be back when all is finished (or broken by me )
Thank you!

#38 9 months ago

grab a cheap temp controlled station from anywhere. They are indispensable when needed. Shoot me a pm anytime if you like.

The best vodka in the world is made close to you so at least you have some thing to help ease the wait.
Cheers

#39 9 months ago
Quoted from Hawk007:

coil is fine but needs a diode. 1n4004 is the type . Install across the terminals on the coil like this...purple and grey wire to non banded side of diode and yellow and violet wire to banded side of diode. Understand what I mean?
And the tip 36 is dead and needs replacing for sure.
Do you have a temp controlled soilder station?
Hang in there. Almost done.

Dude. You are like a god damn master of pinballs. You could explain to a total noob how to measure and fix this.. I am so thankful. And proud that I managed to fix it with your advices!!! Works like a charm knocks like never before
My work - Q5. Diode looks ok also but I won't brag with it But look what some other noob did with Q4.. that is the highest level of sorcery
Thank you, you have a vodka when you visit here.
Priceless help.

IMG_20200102_224222 (resized).jpg
8 months later
#40 44 days ago
Quoted from Hawk007:

grab a cheap temp controlled station from anywhere. They are indispensable when needed. Shoot me a pm anytime if you like.
The best vodka in the world is made close to you so at least you have some thing to help ease the wait.
Cheers

Hey. Refresh. Happened once again. I turn the game on and coil wents off and buzzes till I turn the machine off
The same transistor?

Help please..

#41 43 days ago
Quoted from androspl:

Hey. Refresh. Happened once again. I turn the game on and coil wents off and buzzes till I turn the machine off
The same transistor?
Help please..

Ok nevermind the same transistor blew. Exchanged and works flawlessly.

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