(Topic ID: 68008)

Data East flipper malfunction

By Chrisg

10 years ago


Topic Heartbeat

Topic Stats

  • 19 posts
  • 6 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 9 years ago by frunch
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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#1 10 years ago

Hi All,

I am looking for some wisdom with my Last Action Hero. I have managed to fix all the errors that it came with (there was many!) but this one has me stumped.

The game operates fine until the crane is deployed from its LEFT dock. If, while it is away from its dock, the ball enters the centre scoop, the flippers turn off, the ball is released from the scoop and drains. The game registers a ball drain, a new ball enters the shooter lane (if you still have more balls left in the current game), and the flippers go back to working fine.

The scoop works fine if the crane is at the left dock, and the crane works fine away from the left scoop unless you shoot the scoop!

Does anybody have any thoughts on what could be the cause of this?

LAH is a great game! It has a lot of features and it is a lot of fun.

#2 10 years ago

Looking at your switch matrix, this could be a tilt issue. Although the tilt switch and the "middle scoop left" are in the same row, the "crane left limit" is not. Put it into switch test mode, activate both switches you described at the same time, and see if any other switches are activating with them. I don't own LAH so I can't do any tests.

#3 10 years ago

Good advice^^^

#4 10 years ago

I'll get on it this afternoon and report back.

Your help is very appreciated!

#5 10 years ago

Hi All,

I tested the switches this afternoon and all switches in these columns and rows seem to be working fine. I also tried shaking the playfield while doing this, to try and trigger any grounding issues, but nothing showed up.

I tested it further in game mode with the glass off and it really "feels" more like a coil issue. The flippers work fine, even when the ball is in the scoop, but as soon as the coil launches the ball out of the scoop, the flippers stop. No tilt messages are shown on the display.

This all seems to happen when the crane is moving, the shaker motor is running and the centre scoop coil fires.

Any ideas???

#6 10 years ago

Ok, I have tested this further and I have found that if I trigger the right crane limit (switch 61) and the right flipper switch (switch 64) at the same time, the shooter lane (switch 16) is also triggered. If this happens outside of switch test mode it causes the ball launch coil to fire as it thinks there is a ball in the shooter lane. When tested on their own, all of these switches test fine. This may or may not be a separate issue.

In game mode with the glass off, I have found that the flippers stop working immediately when the crane right limit (switch 61) and the middle scoop left (switch 57) are closed at the same time. BUT NOT IN ALL MODES??? For example, in multiball or ball save modes it seems to operate fine until the end of the mode, and then the crane right limit and middle scoop left immediately stop the ball.

This says to me that the issue is telling the machine the ball has drained down the centre when it hasn't. Further evidence that points to this is that there is NO tilt shown on the display, just end of ball immediately as the middle scoop coil fires. I have used my DMM to run a basic test on the trough diodes, and they appear to be fine.

So I put the machine in switch test again, and when I simultaneously trigger the crane right limit (switch 61), crane limit left (switch 60) and trough #5 (switch 13) then trough #4 (switch 12) triggers also.

I have tested the switch diodes for the middle scoop left, right crane limit and the shooter lane, and they are fine.

I have never dealt with a switch matrix issue before, and I have now spent several hours reading up on the switch matrix.

I do try and fix any issues without doing all I can independently first, but I'm struggling here. Could anybody lend me some wisdom of where to go now???

#7 10 years ago

I am having trouble putting all this together! How did you check the diodes? I'm not 100%, but was thinking on switched they had to be removed from the circuit to test. There seems to be relationships in the matrix to look at here with 57,61,64 all being in the same column and 16 being on the same row as 64

This has some good troubleshooting and theory tips.

http://pinballrehab.com/1-articles/solid-state-repair/ss-repair-guides/146-switch-matrix-theory-and-troubleshooting#column-short

#8 10 years ago
Quoted from Chrisg:

Ok, I have tested this further and I have found that if I trigger the right crane limit (switch 61) and the right flipper switch (switch 64) at the same time, the shooter lane (switch 16) is also triggered. If this happens outside of switch test mode it causes the ball launch coil to fire as it thinks there is a ball in the shooter lane. When tested on their own, all of these switches test fine. This may or may not be a separate issue.
In game mode with the glass off, I have found that the flippers stop working immediately when the crane right limit (switch 61) and the middle scoop left (switch 57) are closed at the same time. BUT NOT IN ALL MODES??? For example, in multiball or ball save modes it seems to operate fine until the end of the mode, and then the crane right limit and middle scoop left immediately stop the ball.
This says to me that the issue is telling the machine the ball has drained down the centre when it hasn't. Further evidence that points to this is that there is NO tilt shown on the display, just end of ball immediately as the middle scoop coil fires. I have used my DMM to run a basic test on the trough diodes, and they appear to be fine.
So I put the machine in switch test again, and when I simultaneously trigger the crane right limit (switch 61), crane limit left (switch 60) and trough #5 (switch 13) then trough #4 (switch 12) triggers also.
I have tested the switch diodes for the middle scoop left, right crane limit and the shooter lane, and they are fine.
I have never dealt with a switch matrix issue before, and I have now spent several hours reading up on the switch matrix.
I do try and fix any issues without doing all I can independently first, but I'm struggling here. Could anybody lend me some wisdom of where to go now???

check the Trough switches

#9 10 years ago

I really appreciate the help on this guys. That article was really helpful btw75.

The more I look at the matrix the more I think that the error lies with the crane right limit (switch 61).

I suspected trough #5, but I tested the trough switches in test mode and they worked ok. For example, I tested trough#5 (switch 13) with trough #4 and rollover switch 29 simultaneously. If the error was at trough#5 this should false trigger switch 28, but it didn't.

I then tested the right crane limit (switch61) with ramp switch 45 and then hit the right flipper. This false triggered the ripper comeback switch 48.

Combining this with the other tests earlier, wouldn't this point to the right crane limit switch???? (Unless I really still don't understand the switch matrix).

Does this mean that the diode is bad, the wire is shorted or that it is a board issue?

Once again, thank you for all the patience!

#10 10 years ago
Quoted from Chrisg:

I suspected trough #5, but I tested the trough switches in test mode and they worked ok. For example, I tested trough#5 (switch 13) with trough #4 and rollover switch 29 simultaneously. If the error was at trough#5 this should false trigger switch 28, but it didn't.

Actually this test should be close 5, 29 and 28 and see if 4 comes on.

Everything you've done points at switch 61. Make sure the diode isn't shorted or reversed.

#11 10 years ago

Hi again, and thanks terry!

I tried trough 5 (switch 13) with switch 29 and switch 28, but trough 4 stayed fine. Unless you meant switch 4 & 5 which I can't do as they are coin mech???

To eliminate the right flipper (switch 64) from the equation, I have tried testing switch 61, 62 and 45 together. This false triggers switch 46. Does this confirm it is switch 61???

I have cut the diode and tested it, and it reads fine. It appears to have the banded side the correct way around, and it is not touching the green wire...

#12 10 years ago

So the green-blue wire goes to switch 61 and the other side of the switch goes to the banded side of the diode?

#13 10 years ago

The green-grey wire goes to the centre of the switch and the white-green goes to the lug furthest from the centre lug. The banded side of the diode is on the white-green side of the switch.

The green-blue wire is used for column 6, not column 8.

Is that correct?

#14 10 years ago

Sorry, you are correct the green-grey wire.

The banded side of the diode should connect to the green-grey wire (either directly or through the switch).

See Image 1 in the following article (It's for WPC, but the same applies). It doesn't matter which side of the switch the diode is on, just that the green-grey goes to the banded side of the diode.

http://www.pinballrehab.com/1-articles/solid-state-repair/repair-guides/146-switch-matrix-theory-and-troubleshooting

#15 10 years ago

I'll check it when I get home from work and I'll let you know how it goes.

Thanks for your help Terry!

#16 10 years ago

Good news! It appears the problem is fixed!

I checked the switch further when I got home today, and had another check of the diode. It still tested fine, it's band was to the common terminal, but the white wire was attached to the wrong side.

When I bought this pin, very few things worked, and one of the main issues was related to the VUK for the crane. Somebody likely took the crane switch off looking for a problem, and re-wired it incorrectly. I didn't recognise the fault as I was too busy checking the diode etc and not the wiring orientation.

It turned out the be an easy fix and now the game appears to be fully working for the first time since I got it. I will check it further when I have the time.

And thanks to you guys I now have a much better understanding of the switch matrix!

Thanks for helping a young Australian learn a bit more about the fantastic machines.

Now to the job of testing out the machine further in game mode!!!!

#17 10 years ago

Yea! It's fixed. Good learning experience as well. Enjoy your game!

#18 10 years ago

Glad you got it working, and always nice to see someone dig into the problem, educate themselves and participate in the repair process.

9 months later
#19 9 years ago

Just wanted to chime in to thank you guys for this thread, I just fixed up an LAH that needed a lot of work and this was my last issue! The exact same thing happened on mine--someone put the white/green wire on the wrong solder terminal of switch 61 (they had it on the banded end of the diode, not the non-banded end where it should have been)...either way, it caused the same problem! When the crane would rotate to the right side of the pf, it would hit switch 61 and then the flippers would stop working and it would kick out another ball into play. Very weird issue, and I really wasn't sure where to start looking. But thanks to this post I had the problem diagnosed and fixed within all of 5-10 minutes. You guys rock!

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