(Topic ID: 125164)

data east bad sd board [update!!] no voices fixed but still missing 2 sounds

By Hawk007

9 years ago


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  • 214 posts
  • 20 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 5 years ago by Bay78
  • Topic is favorited by 7 Pinsiders

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There are 214 posts in this topic. You are on page 4 of 5.
#151 8 years ago

you have switch matrix issues captain neo. Check your switch test. Also you may have a shorted cap on the slingshot switches. Seen those cause weird behavior when shorted or failing.
Trade you games! I hate sound problems now! lol

#152 8 years ago

yea, i know it's screwy somewhere. I'm thinking it's a bad diode somewhere on the playfield. I need to dig into it hardcore. I'll do the switch test thing, with the playfield unplugged and really see if it's on the board or the playfield.

#153 8 years ago
Quoted from Hawk007:

no worries. Stuff happens..lol Got an opinion from another tech friend said it cannot be the decoders or I would have trouble with all the sounds..
Thoughts?

That is true, except we know the sounds in question that are not working are running at a different sample rate than all the others. So they operate differently, and therefore may be decoded differently. Cactus Jack explained it better than I could. I'll examine the D/A datasheet and clocking and see what it looks for as far as determining sample rate.
DA.pngDA.png

#154 8 years ago

Looks like Pin 1 & 2 of the D/A determines sample rate. Pin 1 goes to the CPU (NMI), pin 2 goes to the CPU (IRQ), they feed into pin 3 of the 74HC74 in area 3D it looks like, which is CLK1 output of that IC. It has 2 clocks, and they both feed into one another. So perhaps the one 1/2 of the 74HC74 is working, CLK2, but not CLK1, which causes it to fail.
74HC74-pinout.jpg74HC74-pinout.jpg

That would not be the first time I've seen 1/2 a logic IC fail. Most the time it is usually only one bad gate on an entire chip, unless the whole IC got over-volted.

I build Lunettas for fun, little logic-based digital synths, and some of these logic ICs can withstand 12v+ before they blow. Great way to learn how logic works too. Only I use all 4000 series ICs.
http://electro-music.com/forum/forum-160.html

There is also a 74LS32 in location 6E, Quad OR gate, that looks like it selects which clock is used on the 74HC74 looking at the schematic. So obviously both of these IC would need to be functioning to get the sample rate going. You can test the OR gate with your meter at least. The clock, you'll only be able to see if voltage is present on the clock line.

#155 8 years ago

Awesome! i will see what I see and report back. Just got a RnB so looking that over . But now I'm back in...Thanks for sticking with me defog! I'll get you back....
Cheers

#156 8 years ago

so tested both ic's with DMM and they test good. The 74hc74 at 3d was replaced before but pin checks out . Although the schematic is wrong. pins 5 and 4 on the 6e chip are reversed on the board. and therefore labeled wrong in the schematic. Pin 5 goes where pin 4 should and pin 4 goes where pin 5 should on chip 6E.
Not sure where to go from here. Might wait for my friend to come back from the pinball show on monday with a scope.
Thoughts? Might go work on my new rocky and bullwinkle to clear my head.......

#157 8 years ago
Quoted from Hawk007:

Thoughts? Might go work on my new rocky and bullwinkle to clear my head.......

That sounds like a good idea

#158 8 years ago

so replace the 74hc74? Is that where we were at? My friend with the scope is quite busy..

#159 8 years ago

oh yea...checked the switches and disconnected one at a time to see if diode weirdness was partially causing this...You just never know as this really a strange one. But no change. Finding a 74hc74 as we speak and a 74ls32 as well

#160 8 years ago

Yep, shotgun approach is probably the best bet at this point. $.60 an IC for logic or wasting hours more trying to figure it out.

#161 8 years ago

yea ..thats true. Also risk board damage. But I will cut the rest of the ics off to minimize it. I have the 74ls32 but still need to find a 74hc74

#162 8 years ago

Well, start with the ls32 and see if that fixes it.

#163 8 years ago

ok ls32 socketed and done and drum roll please...........still the same. I need to find an hc74 now.

#164 8 years ago

I probably have a hc74. I'll look.

#165 8 years ago

I think it would now be easier to hire someone to stand next to you while you play and just make the noise with a kazoo or something. Great read. I hope you get it figured out.

#166 8 years ago
Quoted from AZDbacker:

I think it would now be easier to hire someone to stand next to you while you play and just make the noise with a kazoo or something. Great read. I hope you get it figured out.

ok That was funny! Thanks man..I needed that..lol

#167 8 years ago

replaced and socket stripped the 74hc74 and ......... still the same..still missing sounds. Although as always you can hear a faint sound being made like it is trying to play the sounds when it calls for them but nothing comes out. Well back to the ol' drawing board..

#168 8 years ago

might have to find another data east game to help in fixing this

#169 8 years ago
Quoted from Hawk007:

might have to find another data east game to help in fixing this

This is crazy for sure. If the sound board from my Rocky & Bullwinkle were the same, i'd of shipped it to you already.

#170 8 years ago

Thanks man... Yea this is a real spanker.

#171 8 years ago

I think I am going to try the ls273 at 5E. It tests a little high at pins 5,6 which connect to the 5205 voice chip. The ls273 at 4E and on another board test at .551 not .661 at pins 5,6 so I may have found the fault. Or at least lets hope so. Off to get more chips..
Thoughts?

#172 8 years ago

You're in uncharted waters at this point with your torpedo alley. I would have replace every chip in the thing a while ago. Don't rule out something as stupid as a bad resistor either. I know they never fail, but this is the time they do... Something in one of the circuits that deals with sample rate.... Resistor, caps, whatever. I've had similar really insane head scratchers that turn out to be a single bad resistor or poly/ceramic cap that I just wouldn't have ever thought to check.

#173 8 years ago

If there are any on that board, inspect any Resistor Networks (SIP resistors). As a cracked bus style (common VCC to all the resistors) can have strange effects since things change as the state of other lines do going to it.

#174 8 years ago

You got er captains! I will meter every resistor on the board right now. Also I will take note of any ceramic/tantalum/poly caps and replace them as you cannot really check them like resistors.
Thanks for sticking with me boys!

#175 8 years ago

ok update! All these tests done with the board out of game with ground attached.

When I test RA2 the 10k x9 i get low readings on a couple pins...down to 8.3k and 1 a little high at 10.8k . After I remove the msm5205 it reads great at all pins at 10k except the one same pin which is the same at 10.8k.

Makes me think the 5205 or caps by the 5205 are dragging it down. Perhaps right above the 5205 c77 and c76 by the x3 clock 220p i think. Thoughts?

The 5205 was just replaced to get me back voices but some still missing. 2 that we know of. Could it be partially bad?
Also when I test the 5E ls273 pins 5,6 they read at .323 and the 4E ls273 reads .542 pins 5,6 . Both whether or not the 5205 is in.

#176 8 years ago
Quoted from Hawk007:

The 5205 was just replaced to get me back voices but some still missing. 2 that we know of. Could it be partially bad?
Also when I test the ls273 at 5E pins 5,6 they read at .323 and the ls273 at 4E reads .542 whether or not the 5205 is in.

I suppose it is possible one of the internal clocks on the 5205 is bad. I've seen all sort of crazy 1/2 working shit on specialty ICs, so don't rule that out. Where did you get the replacement from?

#177 8 years ago

On S1 & S2 of the 5205, certain states determine the playback rate:
S1 S2
L L - 4khz
L H - 6khz
H L - 8khz
H H - Prohibited
S2 Sampling Frequency (fosc=384kHz)

So I guess check the state of pin 1 & 2 when you play that speech sample. Those two samples are both running below 8khz, so I'd look for a low state on S1 & High on S2 when that missing speech sound is being triggered. For the one that shifts pitch, I'm not sure how that is processed, probably in that 4 bit line, but I'm almost positive on that speech sample running below 8khz because of the chipmunk playback in the file exported at 8khz. That'll at least isolate whether the IC is getting the right info for sample rate select or not. U'll be able to rule out the 5205 vs the logic that enables it.

#178 8 years ago
Quoted from thedefog:

I suppose it is possible one of the internal clocks on the 5205 is bad. I've seen all sort of crazy 1/2 working shit on specialty ICs, so don't rule that out. Where did you get the replacement from?

Got the msm 5205 from John at John 's Jukes. He has all sorts of rare stuff. I should just bring the game down there and let him have a look. I'm actually sure he has another we can try. That is quite a job though.
Be nice to just find a couple chips...

#179 8 years ago

OK I put board back in and tested ....... ..... [the fire again sound for extra ball serve is much harder to activate so I only did the feeder lane missing sound for this test] in addition to other common voice sounds.

when you try to play the missing sounds pin one on 5205 stays high and the pin 2 flashes low for a second and stays high. If you let the game run for a second or 2 she says " blow main ballast" and when that is heard pin 1 says high and pin 2 goes low until speech finished then goes back high.
When other voices [or voice/sound callouts ] are triggered it does the same thing and pin 2 remains low until speech is finished.
Thoughts

#180 8 years ago

also tested ra1 and ra3. ra1 pins all fine at 4.7k except pin 4 on ra3 tested at 2.236k and pin 7 on ra1 which tested basically 2.236 as well.

#181 8 years ago

So the missing sound should be L-H, so that is the correct behavior. I'm going to assume the resting state is H-H, so you sample rate select seems to be working. So it could be the 5205 IC itself. I can mail you my later revision sound board from my Rocky & Bullwinkle . I think the only differences are ROM size capability. Dunno if it needs any jumper changes to run TA. I didn't do much research, I just assume it'll work. 520-5050. Layout looks different, only 1 xtal on the 5050. Maybe it won't work.
http://pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Data_East/Sega#Sound_Board

#182 8 years ago

Wow thanks so much for the offer! You are extremely generous! Many thank yous again kind sir. If that would work i actually have my rocky and bullwinkle right beside the sick/wounded torpedo alley. I think we need an earlier game though. TMNT or before will work for sure . I just need to change jumpers.
Hmm so you think the 5205 could be bad eh. I could not make the first pin go low no matter what sound I got to play. I will go and try to play more sounds and try to make it change state or even flash which it has not as of yet.
I need to find a couple/few msm5205 chips to order for cheap and just try another one.

#183 8 years ago

I cannot for the life of me get the pin 1 to read anything other than high. Does not even flinch.

#184 8 years ago
Quoted from Hawk007:

Wow thanks so much for the offer! You are extremely generous! Many thank yous again kind sir. If that would work i actually have my rocky and bullwinkle right beside the sick/wounded Torpedo Alley. I think we need an earlier game though. TMNT or before will work for sure . I just need to change jumpers.
Hmm so you think the 5205 could be bad eh. I could not make the first pin go low no matter what sound I got to play. I will go and try to play more sounds and try to make it change state or even flash which it has not as of yet.
I need to find a couple/few msm5205 chips to order for cheap and just try another one.

I guess the later revision excludes the MSM5205, can't steal it from R&B?

BTW, I'm emotionally invested in this now as much as you are I think.

#185 8 years ago
Quoted from Hawk007:

I cannot for the life of me get the pin 1 to read anything other than high. Does not even flinch.

Maybe the logic that feeds to that pin is faulty. I don't have the schematic in front of me, dunno what is is (flip-flop or whatever).

#186 8 years ago

5E ls273 at pin 2 feeds that dead pin s1 on the 5205 and same ls273 feeds s2 on the 5205 from pin 5 and pin 6 feeds the 5205 reset signal from again the same ls273 at 5E

#187 8 years ago

Ra2 reads funny with the 5205 installed as well if that matters.And fine when the 5205 is out

#188 8 years ago

Stinks the 5050 sound board is totally different. I just looked at the schematic, I forgot that the original is 100% FM synthesis + samples and the later was a rompler/samples.

#189 8 years ago

SOLVED !!! First off..Many thanks to the defog for sticking this out with me. And to Cactus jack and the others who contributed their time and wealth of knowledge. This sweet sweet victory is for us all! Thanks brothers!

Here is how it was found...After much tracking down we realized we could get no action on pin1 of the msm5205 no matter what....Pin 2 is the output of the ls273 at 5E driving the 5205 input at pin 1 . When I pin check this trace/connection on the underside of the board it pin checks out. But when you flip the board over and pin check the chip pins there was no continuity. Flipped the board back over and the ls273 at 5E had what looked like a little lack of solder on that chip from the factory on a couple pins only and one of them was pin 2!!!!!
Removed the solder and redid them with new and BAM beautiful data east 80's goodness. My missing sounds have come home!!

#190 8 years ago

Yay, the suspense was killing me. Way to stick with it. I would have burnt the board in my fireplace by now.

#191 8 years ago
Quoted from kbliznick:

Yay, the suspense was killing me. Way to stick with it. I would have burnt the board in my fireplace by now.

lol Hey thanks man.This part your victory too.Thanks for your posts as always !
Was it you I was talking to in another thread about the system 11 early boards and the sound reset trace we found bad on them etc?

#192 8 years ago

Congrats on finding it. I have been following along, trying to learn what i can.

#193 8 years ago

Holy hell! Great find. Now can I sent a couple 5050 boards your way?!

( J/K I'll fix my own damn boards someday... )

#194 8 years ago

Wow...this thread was both painful, and interesting to watch. I'm glad you found it. I wasn't sure it would ever happen.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.Team-EM.com
http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball/index.htm
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

#195 8 years ago

Wow! Congrats!!!

#196 8 years ago

Been watching this too. Congrats!

#197 8 years ago

I've been watching too because I have a similar problem on my desw. One missing sound as far as I can tell. Can you give me some tips to investigate my problem?

#198 8 years ago

Btw: CONGRATS!

#199 8 years ago

Thanks eh. Your source for missing sounds will be different than mine as I had an older version sound board. You should examine all your eprom sockets and eproms first. Make sure legs are clean , sockets are clean and undamaged etc. Also try reseating and /or different ribbon cable or swap yours end for end and see if it changes.

#200 8 years ago

Fuck yeah! We now have a full theory of operation of these boards. DE sb expert certified.

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