(Topic ID: 186404)

Damp/moist under Makrolon playfield protector

By mgpasman

7 years ago


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  • 33 posts
  • 17 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 6 years ago by Jjsmooth
  • Topic is favorited by 3 Pinsiders

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#1 7 years ago

I recently applied a Makrolon playfield protector to my new repro playfield. At first, I saw a single spot where the makrolon touches the playfield, almost like a drop of water was squished between them. I was hoping it would dry out eventually.

It did not, instead when I started playing the game, it looks like its spreading. Probably the single spot is splitting itself into smaller spots.

Probably the best way to fix it is to remove the protector completely and have it dry (again) and re-apply. It would require me to deconstruct a large part of the playfield, with the risk of damaging things, so I am reluctant to do that.

Would anyone have a trick for me to try to remove the moist from underneath the protector? Would placing a moisture absorber in the cabinet help? I also considered sliding a ruler with a cloth around it in from the bottom of the playfield, as this would only require me to remove the apron.

#2 7 years ago

I removed the apron and the flippers, then maneuvered a cloth under the protector, so it can "breathe". Then I put a bag of moisture absorber on the corner. "Sealing" it off with the glass and let it sit for a day or so. Let's see tomorrow!

Well, this should do it!Well, this should do it!

#3 7 years ago

I'd blow a fan up in there.

#4 7 years ago
Quoted from John_I:

I'd blow a fan up in there.

Thanks! If this does not work, I will see if I can borrow one

#5 7 years ago

I don't see the need to put a protector over a cc'd pf. Why are you doing this?

#6 7 years ago
Quoted from Jjsmooth:

I don't see the need to put a protector over a cc'd pf. Why are you doing this?

I wanted to make absolutely sure the PF remains new. And also, someone else told me that 3 or 4 times clearcoating (as these repro fields have undergone) is not nearly strong enough (you need at least 8 or 9 layers!!11!!one)...

#7 7 years ago

I assume this is a pf from Brunner. He does a great job. No way you will see wear in home use.

#8 7 years ago
Quoted from Jjsmooth:

I assume this is a pf from Brunner. He does a great job. No way you will see wear in home use.

It's his, yes, and for sure it's top notch. Maybe I will remove it some day then. For now better safe than sorry. I see ppl putting protectors over new Stern playfields as well (seems one of the standard mods for GB).

I have borrowed a hairdryer from someone, so if the moist is not gone today, I will blow it away .

#9 7 years ago

-nvm-

#10 7 years ago
Quoted from mgpasman:

I removed the apron and the flippers, then maneuvered a cloth under the protector, so it can "breathe". Then I put a bag of moisture absorber on the corner. "Sealing" it off with the glass and let it sit for a day or so. Let's see tomorrow!

I'm confused as to how moisture got under your protector in the first place. did you spill some water?

#11 7 years ago
Quoted from cottonm4:

I'm confused as to how moisture got under your protector in the first place. did you spill some water?

Nope. Have been wondering the same myself. I have removed the protective plastic from the makrolon and put it on the playfield that I've just wiped off with a new cloth to make sure any dust was gone. It looked good so I continued assembling the playfield. The next day a spot was visible between the PF and the makrolon, just as it would look if you'd squeeze a drop of water between it.

I've seen it before on someone's pin that was placed in a garage, a more humid environment would explain it, but in my case it's just set up in the living room.

Frankly I would have thought this to be more common, like it would always happen if the makrolon was stored colder than the playfield, or something like that.

#12 7 years ago

Had this same thing happen to a Hobbit that was NIB. I bought the protector and put it on. Next day I had what looked like a moisture spot in the middle of the playfield. I tried the hairdryer trick with no luck. I sold the machine in February so there was no solution on my behalf. Curious to see how successful you are at solving this one. I just put a protector on my CC and didn't have anything like this happen. Go figure. P.S. I live in Colorado so the air is real dry here, no humidity issues.

1 week later
#13 6 years ago

Well, it's not going well . After the first attempt it looked good for about a day, so I put back the apron. Sure enough, the next day or so, some spots were back. So I did it again. And again. Last week I did the hair dryer trick. Looked good, until today I again noticed two small spots: (within the orange circle)

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Why do they keep on coming back? It's a 30 year old machine, may have been kept in a damp environment once or twice in its days, but it has been sitting good and dry in my living room for over a year now. (I have a Theatre of Magic as well with a protector, it stays perfectly dry).

#14 6 years ago
Quoted from mgpasman:

Why do they keep on coming back?

Maybe she's...........alive.

#15 6 years ago
Quoted from mgpasman:

Well, it's not going well . After the first attempt it looked good for about a day, so I put back the apron. Sure enough, the next day or so, some spots were back. So I did it again. And again. Last week I did the hair dryer trick. Looked good, until today I again noticed two small spots: (within the orange circle)

Why do they keep on coming back? It's a 30 year old machine, may have been kept in a damp environment once or twice in its days, but it has been sitting good and dry in my living room for over a year now. (I have a Theatre of Magic as well with a protector, it stays perfectly dry).

One of those spots is in the middle of an insert. The other spot is along an insert edge. I'm shooting in the dark here, but has some sort of moisture got between the inserts and the insert holes? I would not know how especially since your TOM does not have this problem.

#16 6 years ago
Quoted from solarvalue:

Maybe she's...........alive.

On second thought "how do I keep my bride from getting wet" would have been a more catchier topic title

#17 6 years ago
Quoted from cottonm4:

One of those spots is in the middle of an insert. The other spot is along an insert edge. I'm shooting in the dark here, but has some sort of moisture got between the inserts and the insert holes? I would not know how especially since your TOM does not have this problem.

Previously, the spots were much bigger, and also on the non-insert part of the PF. Does this help?

#18 6 years ago

No, it does not really help but is sort looking like if you keep at it the problem may soon disappear.

#19 6 years ago
Quoted from cottonm4:

No, it does not really help but is sort looking like if you keep at it the problem may soon disappear.

But, how?

#20 6 years ago

The clearcoat is breathing.It takes up to 6-8 months for it to settle down.If you do not maintain a set temp in house,say it varies 20 degrees from morning till night and add a moisture change in the air, all of this can add up as an issue if you're going to cover it with a protector. If you continue like this mold will be on its way.
-Mike

#21 6 years ago

Did you try Moisture removal, such as a Damp Rid Type container/bag product inside the Cab?

You have a sealed Environment, that will have moisture.

As mentioned above, it finds a place to condense.

30 days with a product such as above, may solve this.

#22 6 years ago

Temperature in my apartment is pretty stable in summer and winter, around 20 degrees celsius.

A bag of moisture absorber is in the cab, but I have let it air (place something in between PF and protector, as shown in https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/dampmoist-under-makrolon-playfield-protector#post-3714081) for about a week only (as I wanted to get back to play it ).

The PF is well over a year old (I think it was manufactured november or december 2015). I have left it wrapped in plastic for a few months until I was ready to repopulate it, and the protector has been on since then. So there is all chance it did not have 6-8 months to air out...

So probably I will try letting it air a little longer, using 1 or 2 new bags of moisture remover.

#23 6 years ago

I don't think you're going to be able to get rid of these spots. My BM66 protector does the same thing. I made the mistake of waxing before I put the protector down. It was pretty bad. The spots kept appearing in the exact same areas which led be to think it could be excess wax. It may just be spots where the protector is laying perfectly flat and there is no air in between those areas. As stated above it may disappear once the CC settles. The areas are not "wet" per say. I think mold worries are very overblown.

#24 6 years ago

Playfield PETG protectors have the same types of conditions as witnessed on translites in backglasses with tempered glass, not related to static electricity. There are three common causes.

1 ) Residues left on the playfield prior to PETG protector installment, and is very easily to overlook.
2 ) Reflective mirror glass effect between the smooth clear coat surface and the PETG protector that is caused by surface tension.
3 ) Condensed moisture particles which permeates through wood surfaces due to environmental temperature variations and humidity levels.
Wood conditions remain porous and still particulate those particles through those surfaces, even on clear coated playfields, edges of playfields, game inserts, and other areas.
In the case of clear coated playfields the moisture remains trapped between both levels meaning the PETG protector acts as vapor barrier.
The aspect that makes it a bit worse to use a protector, as there is not much ability for the wood or surface to "breathe", but the moisture variations pose little threat in climate controlled homes.
You are not going going to get mold, unless the environmental conditions promote this problem.
Keep in mind new manufacturers playfields and freshly clear coated playfields are still "settling", and have moisture contents than 20 year old games. If not properly cured, it can be much higher.

It is quite unnecessary to use a PETG protector over the entirety of a freshly clear coated playfield installed in a game used in a home environment.
The game and playfield will outlive the owner, unless severely neglected.
It is simply a waste of additional money and extra work for the owner to install.

#25 6 years ago
Quoted from xTheBlackKnightx:

It is quite unnecessary to use a PETG protector over the entirety of a freshly clear coated playfield installed in a game used in a home environment.
The game and playfield will outlive the owner, unless severely neglected.
It is simply a waste of additional money and extra work for the owner to install.

Duly noted, except it will now be extra work for me to un-install it .

#26 6 years ago

Back in the days when I would make my own playfield plastics, I would sandwich 2 thin sheets of plastics together with a Mylar printed sheet between them.

Sometimes there would be a spot, just like yours, that would form above a lamp.

It looked like it was wet, yet I could wipe it with Naphtha, reassemble, and within a few days it would reappear.

The plastics distributor that I showed it to said that some kind of plasticizers were probably leaching from the plastic.

#27 6 years ago

When you lifted the playfield protector did you see any moisture residue on either the playfield or the protector ?

I ask as I had a similar playfield issue, I also witnessed it when when sizing some plastics I was making.

It turned out to just be spots where the protector was making perfect contact with the playfield (or the other plastic), as if the air was squashed out and natural surface tension between the two perfectly smooth surfaces gave the illusion of a water droplet.

Could be an indication of the perfection of the finish on the playfield.

#28 6 years ago

Once you get her moist you should taste.

#29 6 years ago

This is the same as if you put a real glossy photographic print behind a piece of glass. The areas that are perfectly flat and mating will make a different look (wettish) because it changes the refraction (no air between them). There isn't a solution other than mounting the print away from the glass. In the real world, you can use a matte finish on a print to help or mount a print in a mat to insure there is an air gap between the two surfaces. This stops the look and also protects the print and finish from moisture forming where they touch and ruining the print in the long term.

I think these playfield covers may have some of the same problems over time as photos mounted directly behind glass. Check this link out to see all the things that can go wrong with a print/piece of paper. Note your playfield is just a really thick piece of paper so the wrinkling won't be as pronounced, but the condensation, mildew, sticking art, etc are all real possible concerns.

https://frametek.com/articles/why-paper-art-buckles-in-a-frame/

#30 6 years ago

Playfield protectors suck! Get that off there

#31 6 years ago

Are you sure it's actually moisture? Does it feel wet? If not, I suspect it's the interaction of two clear materials. I think they are called Newton rings. In the world of comics you find can find this kind of refraction in graded comics where a Mylar bag touches a polyethylene case or even another Mylar sleeve.

That said, if it's wet it's wet.

#32 6 years ago
Quoted from albummydavis:

If not, I suspect it's the interaction of two clear materials. I think they are called Newton rings.

This.

Otterboxes that have built in screen protectors almost always have the very same effect on phone screens. It's not wet, or even damp. It's just the interaction of the clear screen protector, and the glass display.

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#33 6 years ago

Remove and move on...lesson learned.

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