(Topic ID: 330016)

Old Chicago | Tommy Gun Topper

By Green5

1 year ago


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  • 36 posts
  • 8 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 1 year ago by Green5
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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#1 1 year ago

Building a custom topper for a Bally Old Chicago.
I want to include a coil in the topper that will fire based on a pop bumper being hit.

Can I tap into a pop bumper coil and run the wires up to the topper?
I planned on using the same rated coil.

#2 1 year ago

The pop bumper coil wouldn't care. But you'd be doubling the current through the pop bumper relay switch, wiring and fuse and putting extra load on the capacitor and rectifier. An AP-27-1300 pop bumper coil probably has a resistance of about 14 ohms so it's already drawing about 4 amps through the 5 amp fuse.

You could upsize the fuse but then you'd just be kicking the can down to the rectifier and compromising the circuit protection the 5 amp fuse provides. Could you use a weaker, higher resistance solenoid, maybe like one used on a chime or ball gate?

/Mark

#3 1 year ago

What is this coil going to do in the topper? Is it going to be a complete pop bumper assembly or a knocker or a bell?

#4 1 year ago

Your going to make a tommygun fire in the topper arent you?

#5 1 year ago
Quoted from metalguy:

Your going to make a tommygun fire in the topper arent you?

You guessed that pretty quick.

Printing a full size Tommy Gun with flash in the muzzle & wanted to make the gun action slide each time a pop bumper is hit in the game.

I'm open to any size coil as it just needs to make the action slide.

#6 1 year ago
Quoted from edednedy:

What is this coil going to do in the topper? Is it going to be a complete pop bumper assembly or a knocker or a bell?

Are you talking about using something like a #CC-31-2000 (chime coil)? instead of Old Chicago's AP 27-1300 that is the pop bumper coil.

Open to any coil for this project.

#7 1 year ago

Better description is paralleling the coils rather than daisy-chain... I'd be tempted to add a separate contact/switch that drives this, either added to the relay or some sort of contact that closes off of the fiber board of of the pop.

#8 1 year ago
Quoted from pinhead52:

Better description is paralleling the coils rather than daisy-chain... I'd be tempted to add a separate contact/switch that drives this, either added to the relay or some sort of contact that closes off of the fiber board of of the pop.

That is a good idea. (Right, parallel not in series, good correction) The only missing part in my mind is that in parallel the same power source is still being utilized. If what MarkG is saying is true and a single pop bumper line is rated for 5 AMP & the single pop bumper pulls 4amps. I could try to located a .5amp coil and be within safe operating conditions?

#9 1 year ago

I agree with Pinhead, I would add another lower current coil that triggers off a new switch added to the pop bumper relay switches. This would also let you add a separate fuse to the topper if you desire.

With the extra switch on the pop bumper relay switch stack you then don’t have to use a DC coil with a diode, you can run the Tommy Gun coil off one of the AC power rails.

One more suggestion, if this is for a topper, and you want to run it off a pop bumper, you would then need to run wires (and a connector) from the playfield up to the head. What if instead you triggered off one of the point scoring relays which are already in the head, making the topper installation perhaps less involved?

Love the idea, BTW

Alberto

#10 1 year ago

Are looking for only one of the Pops to fire it, or all 3?
Adding an additional set of switches to however many Pops
and getting the Hot from a different source would maybe be
the easiest way..

#11 1 year ago

I was thinking along the same lines. Rather than using the DC that the pop bumpers use and relying on the rectifier, you could use AC and rely on the beefier transformer instead. The easiest approach might be to add a switch to the 10pt relay in the backbox so that it fires any time you get 10 points (including all three pop bumpers). A more interesting solution might have it happen only occasionally, like when you hit a 3000 point target. (That would require an extra switch on the 3000 point relay instead.)

#12 1 year ago

Great ideas.

I like adding an extra switch to the 10 point relay in the back box instead of the pop bumper under the playfield. Much more room in the head than under the pop bumper.

So if I have this correctly:

1) Tap into the main line coming out of the transformer going into the game.
2) Run it to a switch added to the 10 point relay stack.
3) Run from the switch into a 5 amp 250V fuse.
4) Up to the coil in the Tommy Gun.
5) Ground lug on the coil direct to ground in the game.
6) Using a molex connector on the gun so it can be disconnected.

#13 1 year ago

To be truthful, if you're going to have it operate every time 10 points are made,
I'd just tap into the 10 Point Relay's hot. I've done similar things a few times.
Recently I converted a Chicago Coin Replay Sun Valley machine into a True 2
Player Add-a-Ball. One thing I did was tie the 200 Point Relay into a Step-Up-Unit's
Coil that I fabricated into a wiper. It pulls it with ease.

#14 1 year ago

Or you could just add sound effects with a little wav player

https://www.amazon.com/Adafruit-Audio-FX-Sound-Board/dp/B00Q3U42DM

#15 1 year ago

I think this is the suggestion, add an extra switch to the 10-pt Relay, add a fuse in series (the fuse is probably optional), and connect your Tommy Gun coil, fuse, and switch to the +50V rail and it’s return path to the transformer.

Every time 10-pts is scores, you get the Tommy Gun.

Adding a connector is a great idea.

Regards

Alberto

BB403860-487D-4EB0-94FD-1884DCEF9313 (resized).jpegBB403860-487D-4EB0-94FD-1884DCEF9313 (resized).jpeg

#16 1 year ago
Quoted from Peruman:

I think this is the suggestion, add an extra switch to the 10-pt Relay, add a fuse in series (the fuse is probably optional), and connect your Tommy Gun coil, fuse, and switch to the +50V rail and it’s return path to the transformer.
Every time 10-pts is scores, you get the Tommy Gun.
Adding a connector is a great idea.
Regards
Alberto
[quoted image]

I like this a lot.
I'll add a toggle switch so the gun can be shut off without disconnecting it too.

But this is what I'm going to try. Simple, clean, will get the job done.

I'l use the same coil as in the 10 pt. chime just to keep the game parts easy to keep a back stock of.

#17 1 year ago

Test print at 25% scale came out pretty clean.

Making adjustments for wiring and building slide mechanism next.

Tommy Gun Topper 1 (resized).jpgTommy Gun Topper 1 (resized).jpgTommy Gun Topper 2 (resized).jpgTommy Gun Topper 2 (resized).jpg
#18 1 year ago

I don’t have an Old Chicago to reference but hopefully the 10-pt relay has an open slot in its armature so adding the extra switch requires minimum changes to the hardware.

#19 1 year ago
Quoted from Peruman:

I don’t have an Old Chicago to reference but hopefully the 10-pt relay has an open slot in its armature so adding the extra switch requires minimum changes to the hardware.

I would think from all the other games I've worked on its more than possible. an open slot or just adding a custom bent switch at the end of the stack should do the trick.

I'll post progress. Game is being delivered tomorrow.

#20 1 year ago
Quoted from Green5:

I would think from all the other games I've worked on its more than possible. an open slot

Actually, I believe the Score Relays do have open slot(s), but I'm just
interested in knowing. What makes you feel hooking up directly to the
10 Point Relay's hot terminal would be a problem? The Hot's already supplied..

#21 1 year ago

Mopar
I see what you are saying. You are suggesting to parallel the two coils like below (green arrow). That would also work. One concern would be the current going through the coils would now be half for each, would that be enough to create a magnetic field strong enough to move the metal plunger?

Please ignore the fact that I’m connected in parallel to the 10-pt chime coil, it should be the 10-pt relay coil.

Alberto

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#22 1 year ago

If it did work, it would be easy, quick, and save some time.
The Score Relay takes little pull. What you could first do is
Elegator clip and jump it. I've done this set up quite a few
times.
Weird for this era of a machine, but Balls-a-Poppin had
no bells. It also has no Score Relays, so to add bells, I had to
tap into the Scoring Step Ups, and like all other Coil Relays
I've added to machines, no issues at all.
My last was a Stepper on Sun Valley that is quite spring
loaded, and no problems..
I'm at 100% you would be fine and it would save some time,
but if you prefer a switch, it does have an open slot..

#23 1 year ago

I think what Mopar suggested is to add the new coil in parallel to the 10 point relay coil, although you could just as easily add it in parallel to a chime coil or a score reel coil. But in any event the current through the coils wouldn't be halved since there's no real current limiting other than the transformer capacity. The two coils in parallel would likely see their full current since the resistance through the wires and switches is so low.

#24 1 year ago

Mopar and at @markg, I think you are both correct. I think I was diving too deep into this one. The Tommy Gun coil connected in parallel to the 10-pt relay coil in the head should do the trick and keep the mods to a minimum.

Alberto

#25 1 year ago

Mark and Alberto is right.
On a Ball Bowler, when all 18 Score Reels reset at start up,
they're all running off the same circuitry..

#26 1 year ago

Be cool when you add a little red light in the end of the barrel to simulate a muzzle flash each time your coil is fired.

#27 1 year ago
Quoted from edednedy:

Be cool when you add a little red light in the end of the barrel to simulate a muzzle flash each time your coil is fired.

Well, it started with the idea of a red #44 flasher LED. Then I thought making it involve game play would be even better.

I picked up the game about an hour ago and while looking at it, I think a switch on one of the relay stacks will control a light at the end of the barrel.

I am concerned that if I tie into every single 10 point shot, the gun is going to be constantly going off. Perhaps the hundreds relay would be better. I have to look over the feature scoring to figure that out.

Tonight I spent some time working on the slide mechanism

IMG_5769 (resized).jpgIMG_5769 (resized).jpgIMG_5770 (resized).jpgIMG_5770 (resized).jpgOld Chicago Back Box Relays (resized).jpgOld Chicago Back Box Relays (resized).jpg
#28 1 year ago

20 Gauge wire for the coil line?

#29 1 year ago

Green - You could probably put a red 48v panel indicator (pilot light) in there and just wire it directly to your coil. You wouldn't have to run separate 6v wiring or a switch for the lamp that way.
Something like this should work if it isn't too big for your barrel. It's a little over an inch in diameter.
https://www.amazon.com/Pilot-Light-Panel-Indicator-10pcs/dp/B01N68YLSV

#30 1 year ago
Quoted from edednedy:

Green - You could probably put a red 48v panel indicator (pilot light) in there and just wire it directly to your coil. You wouldn't have to run separate 6v wiring or a switch for the lamp that way.
Something like this should work if it isn't too big for your barrel. It's a little over an inch in diameter.
amazon.com link »

That is a pretty nice light & I could build 10 with that bundle you found. The barrel should be exactly 1 inch from my current projected measurements. So It might be a little to large.
I think a #44 in red might have a better look from the side since it will stick out more.

Planning to tap into the back box GI for power.
You might be right though, just taking power from the coil line and stepping it down with a simple resistor. Worth figuring out how to make that work. Reduce complexity of the design by doing that.

#31 1 year ago

To use the coil 50V to power up a 6V LED, you would need to burn a lot of power with that resistor. You’d have to burn 44V, you would need a big power resistor (high Wattage rating) and it would still get pretty hot.

I think a second power rail going to the gun for the LED would be better.

Regards

Alberto

#32 1 year ago
Quoted from Peruman:

To use the coil 50V to power up a 6V LED, you would need to burn a lot of power with that resistor. You’d have to burn 44V, you would need a big power resistor (high Wattage rating) and it would still get pretty hot.
I think a second power rail going to the gun for the LED would be better.
Regards
Alberto

Good point. I agree. I’m also thinking with a second power rail for the LED. If the location the game lives in thinks the gun is loud. I can turn the coil off but keep the LED on.

#33 1 year ago

Is the coil going to hit a wooden base and sound like a knocker or do you have a different sound in mind?

Also, Is your gun going to be pointed forward as if it was shooting at the player?

#34 1 year ago
Quoted from Peruman:

To use the coil 50V to power up a 6V LED, you would need to burn a lot of power with that resistor. You’d have to burn 44V, you would need a big power resistor (high Wattage rating) and it would still get pretty hot.

If the LED takes, say, 30 mA then the resistor should be 44 V / 0.03 A = 1467 ohms, and it then dissipates 44 V * 0.03 A = 1.32 watts. So you would use a 1.5 k / 2 W resistor - not very big or hot, since the LED is not continuously lit.

#35 1 year ago
Quoted from edednedy:

Is the coil going to hit a wooden base and sound like a knocker or do you have a different sound in mind?
Also, Is your gun going to be pointed forward as if it was shooting at the player?

The gun is going to be facing sideways on top of the back box. Three reasons for this.

1) A sideways view let’s everyone see more detail on the gun.

2) I have the option of beefier components because I can hide it all behind the gun.

3) I may be able to get away with less material needed if I only have to print one side.

As far as the striking point. I’m going to try just a coil stop first and see how that sounds in open air with no sound deadening.

#36 1 year ago
Quoted from Tuukka:

If the LED takes, say, 30 mA then the resistor should be 44 V / 0.03 A = 1467 ohms, and it then dissipates 44 V * 0.03 A = 1.32 watts. So you would use a 1.5 k / 2 W resistor - not very big or hot, since the LED is not continuously lit.

awesome awesome, thank you. I’ll see if I have some laying around to add into my bench test.

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