Quoted from mpdpvdpin:

Wait till try to sell it later in a massively over saturated market while Stern is still producing it (and every other game with no end in site). Godzillas don’t move for under $5500 and sinking everyday. No one likes taking a $1500-$2k hit but that’s what you’re getting into buying NIB.

Quoted from Gambeno:

I'm surprised there is no footage of the game on location yet. While I do appreciate the Deadflip streams, they never let them blow the machine up for some reason. I want to see what is going on deep in the game code.

Quoted from toaster777:

I really don't get these comments of wait until you try to sell later and lose 1.5k-2k. Pinball machines aren't investments. They're like cars. Is it more cost effective to buy a used car? Sure it is. Does everyone want to buy used cars? No. Some want to have the latest car now and enjoy it for the months/year before someone else gets it at a better price used. It's the same with pinball machines. If someone wants to buy NIB and enjoy it for that period of time before someone else gets it at a later date, used at a better price, great. If someone wants to wait and save a few bucks and buy the game used later in its lifecycle, great. To each his own. Pinball machines aren't investments.

Quoted from Phern:

I agree with you. But I think the point some may be trying to make is the amount of the drop in value suggests they are over priced to begin with. Just like some cars hold better value in the secondary market (which is a big selling point from the dealers when car buying), the fact that the pins go down in value so quickly and significantly may suggest the manufacturers (see stern) may be out of alignment with the market.
With some manufacturers it feels like are really trying to give you value and worth, and with some others it feels like they are nickel and diming you. These are very expensive hobbies, shouldn't really feel like that spending $10k + on anything
But totally agree these aren't investments, absolutely like a car etc. Prefer and can afford a NIB then that's great. For those of us though that aren't quite there it's frustrating seeing the market where it is. Also a weird place right now in pinball when comparing manufacturers and what you get for your money.

Quoted from toaster777:

I really don't get these comments of wait until you try to sell later and lose 1.5k-2k. Pinball machines aren't investments. They're like cars. Is it more cost effective to buy a used car? Sure it is. Does everyone want to buy used cars? No. Some want to have the latest car now and enjoy it for the months/year before someone else gets it at a better price used. It's the same with pinball machines. If someone wants to buy NIB and enjoy it for that period of time before someone else gets it at a later date, used at a better price, great. If someone wants to wait and save a few bucks and buy the game used later in its lifecycle, great. To each his own. Pinball machines aren't investments.

Quoted from mpdpvdpin:

Yes, the pressure is felt more from guests saying …when is BOND coming? When is Venom coming? When is Jaws coming? And then having to explain why I’m not going to buy them. Luckily Jaws will earn well based on license alone, especially around here. I’m just not personally excited about it and it’s kind of a drag.

Quoted from theadicts77:

Find another job then. Jesus.

Quoted from mpdpvdpin:

The GAME is not taking me for a ride, the manufacturer is. Also that “expensive” mech is a motorized track with a single drop target on it. The actual cost to stern per game I would approximate to be less than $100. Msrp on a pro is $6999. We’re paying for the license here and not much else. They knew this game would sell on license alone. Just look at it, can you honestly say that this an INSPIRED design based on what we’ve seen from Elwin prior?

Quoted from Rexdeanrds:

CES on the IC map
[quoted image]

Quoted from mpdpvdpin:

For the “pinball machines are not investments” set. You are wrong. Now, you do not HAVE to approach and handle pinball as an investment but they certainly can be. If you want to collect and play with them like toys, that’s totally fine (*) Do you think that operators do what they do just because it’s fun? No. Is it a fun way to make money? Yeah. Investments are not just putting money into something that appreciates in value. It can also be putting money into something that earns passive income. Pinball CAN and IS approached as an investment widely. Many know this. Every operator knows this. So…Do I like when my location pins appreciate over time as well as earning money ? Hell yes I do. Do I like when they hold value? Yes, it’s arguably just as satisfying. Does it bother me when they lose value slightly? Not at all, it’s to be expected in most cases. Does it bother me when the loss of value approaches the 25-50% mark? Of course it does. It cuts into my earnings.
* They’re not toys though, they are commercial arcade games. There IS a purpose for the coin door. It’s not just there for you to gussy up with purdy powder coats

[quoted image]

Quoted from ABE_FLIPS:

I think a more crowded artwork would look like there is much more in it. I fell for it too.
That thing looks packed!
[quoted image]

Quoted from toaster777:

You are an operator. That’s different. Everything can technically be an investment including a car. My original point was around people going around saying just wait until you lose 2k when you go to sell it as a reason to why you shouldn’t buy NIB and should just wait and buy later. If you want to look at it as an investment then try to monetize it as you would as an operator by routing it or then your speculating on its value in the future but otherwise it’s like a car - the majority of people should not look at pins as an investment just like the majority of people should not look at buying a car as an investment. Your most likely going to lose money when you go to sell it.

Quoted from TreyBo69:

Godzilla vs Jaws when Toho?

Quoted from ABE_FLIPS:

I think a more crowded artwork would look like there is much more in it. I fell for it too.
That thing looks packed!
[quoted image]

Quoted from Zablon:

We aren't allowed to make car comparisons when it comes to positives in pinball, so the same holds true for negatives. Ask the self proclaimed gurus. Carguments are bad, mm'kay?

Quoted from kevmo:

Tempted to see jaws artwork on godzilla now, that would give us the full picture .
I can photoshop one together later when I have time or anyone else is up for the task?

Quoted from toaster777:

I really don't get these comments of wait until you try to sell later and lose 1.5k-2k. Pinball machines aren't investments. They're like cars. Is it more cost effective to buy a used car? Sure it is. Does everyone want to buy used cars? No. Some want to have the latest car now and enjoy it for the months/year before someone else gets it at a better price used. It's the same with pinball machines. If someone wants to buy NIB and enjoy it for that period of time before someone else gets it at a later date, used at a better price, great. If someone wants to wait and save a few bucks and buy the game used later in its lifecycle, great. To each his own. Pinball machines aren't investments.

Quoted from Xelz:

I’m thoroughly confused at all this stripped-down talk. The game has:
- Upper playfield with 3 exits, one of which feeds a third level ramp to a habit rail
- Custom ship, shark, chum bucket, and buoy sculpts
- Four flippers
- Two horizontal spinners plus a standard vertical spinner
- Moving shark fin with custom overlay and blood lighting
And now the LE comes with speaker lights and the prem with side armor.
What makes this somehow an obviously lower BOM than other Elwin titles? Elwin always makes magic out of mostly standard materials (ramps, guides, habit rails, magnets, pops, newton balls) and tosses in ~2-3 unique custom mechanical toys.
I could understand the opinion that the BOM went into things that people don’t care about. If you had your heart set on a shark eating your balls, then the money spent on that boat with a captured ball and the Jaws bash toy was wasted on you. But that’s different than the BOM actually being lower, especially once you account for inflation. (I’ll bet the Jaws BOM is actually higher than when GZ launched on a nominal basis.)
And for those who still can’t get over the idea that Stern’s prices have tracked inflation, you may want to try screaming at the milk aisle in your local supermarket where prices have risen by ~35% since 2019. Or even better, go to your local dairy farmer and tell him how you feel about his BOM. Then let us know how that goes

Quoted from Xelz:

I’m thoroughly confused at all this stripped-down talk. The game has:
- Upper playfield with 3 exits, one of which feeds a third level ramp to a habit rail
- Custom ship, shark, chum bucket, and buoy sculpts
- Four flippers
- Two horizontal spinners plus a standard vertical spinner
- Moving shark fin with custom overlay and blood lighting
And now the LE comes with speaker lights and the prem with side armor.
What makes this somehow an obviously lower BOM than other Elwin titles? Elwin always makes magic out of mostly standard materials (ramps, guides, habit rails, magnets, pops, newton balls) and tosses in ~2-3 unique custom mechanical toys.
I could understand the opinion that the BOM went into things that people don’t care about. If you had your heart set on a shark eating your balls, then the money spent on that boat with a captured ball and the Jaws bash toy was wasted on you. But that’s different than the BOM actually being lower, especially once you account for inflation. (I’ll bet the Jaws BOM is actually higher than when GZ launched on a nominal basis.)
And for those who still can’t get over the idea that Stern’s prices have tracked inflation, you may want to try screaming at the milk aisle in your local supermarket where prices have risen by ~35% since 2019. Or even better, go to your local dairy farmer and tell him how you feel about his BOM. Then let us know how that goes

Quoted from Yipykya:

A similar argument can be made for Venom but no one defends Venom, and it additionally has a mechanism that changes most of the ball paths.

Quoted from Xelz:

I’m thoroughly confused at all this stripped-down talk. The game has:
- Upper playfield with 3 exits, one of which feeds a third level ramp to a habit rail
- Custom ship, shark, chum bucket, and buoy sculpts
- Four flippers
- Two horizontal spinners plus a standard vertical spinner
- Moving shark fin with custom overlay and blood lighting
And now the LE comes with speaker lights and the prem with side armor.
What makes this somehow an obviously lower BOM than other Elwin titles? Elwin always makes magic out of mostly standard materials (ramps, guides, habit rails, magnets, pops, newton balls) and tosses in ~2-3 unique custom mechanical toys.
I could understand the opinion that the BOM went into things that people don’t care about. If you had your heart set on a shark eating your balls, then the money spent on that boat with a captured ball and the Jaws bash toy was wasted on you. But that’s different than the BOM actually being lower, especially once you account for inflation. (I’ll bet the Jaws BOM is actually higher than when GZ launched on a nominal basis.)
And for those who still can’t get over the idea that Stern’s prices have tracked inflation, you may want to try screaming at the milk aisle in your local supermarket where prices have risen by ~35% since 2019. Or even better, go to your local dairy farmer and tell him how you feel about his BOM. Then let us know how that goes

Quoted from iceman44:

We need groceries, gas, milk to live.
We don’t need pinball machines. So if you want to try and justify these price increases by comparing it to “milk” then let us know how that goes.
There are a multitude of sectors that goes into the CPI report. And it’s ex food and energy which is deemed “too volatile”
If Stern or JJP can’t offer more for the current pricing then they won’t survive long term.
How do you justify the cost of an LE versus a pro? I don’t see $5500 worth of extra cost.

Quoted from Xelz:

To take the demand-side argument, if consumers are willing to buy a quantity of luxury good that equals production at a given price then the price is either a) correct, or b) too low.
Jaws’ first run is sold out almost everywhere. Sounds like the price isn’t too high.

Quoted from Xelz:

Jaws’ first run is sold out almost everywhere. Sounds like the price isn’t too high

Quoted from Xelz:

To take the demand-side argument, if consumers are willing to buy a quantity of luxury good that equals production at a given price then the price is either a) correct, or b) too low.
Jaws’ first run is sold out almost everywhere. Sounds like the price isn’t too high.

Quoted from rob3:

stumblor and I are going to make an attempt to harpoon ourselves into the conversation on our live stream today at 5p ET / 10p GMT. We'll be talking Jaws mods. Come join the chat and share all your ball eating hopes, dreams and despair.

Quoted from rob3:

hello all, new to this thread, I've heard it's been quite the ride so far!
stumblor and I are going to make an attempt to harpoon ourselves into the conversation on our live stream today at 5p ET / 10p GMT. We'll be talking Jaws mods. Come join the chat and share all your ball eating hopes, dreams and despair.
The live stream will air on YouTube and Twitch, subscribe for a reminder.
https://www.youtube.com/@InBeforetheLock/streams
https://www.twitch.tv/in_before_thelock
Links and past epsiodes are up at inbeforethelock.com[quoted image]

Quoted from RoadQueen:

That’s the exact time of the official Stern Jaws gameplay today

Quoted from iceman44:

No, pinball machines are not "investments".
The problem with your analogy is that every time a "new car" comes out we don't rush out and buy it. It says you have 5 pins, do you have 5 cars?
You've been on Pinside for 2 years, when you get to 10, 15, 25 pins you won't think of them the same way.
Do we need 5 or 25 cars just because a new model has come out? Pins are nothing like cars, which we NEED to live.

Quoted from iceman44:

I get you are somewhat new here.
Sure thing, “almost sold out everywhere”.
Keep telling yourself that.
If you are happy with it, that’s all that matters. Too many people get butthurt and take it personal.
I buy what I like. But if you really believe the “demand” is there then just give it a few months. These games aren’t even out yet. They will be popping up everywhere.
Heard the same BS on Foo. Now they are $3k less

Quoted from Animal:

Cool, so these first runs, I guess they are Pros and LEs?

Quoted from toaster777:

I own 3 cars but that's besides the point. My analogy is not that pins are exactly like cars in every way, but are from the perspective that they are generally not investments and they will generally lose money when you sell them. I don't personally think cars today are worth the money they ask for them and I don't personally think pins are worth the money they ask for them, but in both scenarios I'd rather buy a new car or a NIB pin than a used one (for pins that are still manufactured) if it's something that I want for whatever reason. Could I wait and buy either later at a better price, sure, but I don't look at either as an investment and understand I will lose money when I go to sell them but if it's a pin I want for whatever reason (theme, gameplay, etc) I'd rather have it now, enjoy the NIB experience and enjoy playing it now versus later and if I ever get bored of it I'll sell it knowing I won't sell for what I bought it for but that cost was my enjoyment of the item for that period of time. My comment was around the people saying "wait until you go sell it later and lose 2K". Ya you will, that's how it works.

Quoted from iceman44:

That's "how it works" now. Not 3, 5, 10 yrs ago. Newbies don't get that.
It's not just about you individually, the general notion that the amount of people they need to buy these NIB games, over an over again, several times a year, isn't going to cut it at these prices with an ever increasing number of people that DON'T feel the way you do. And you are only 5 pins in.
This is BIG picture, everybody takes it personal, it's not. It is what it is.
1,000 LE's at $13k is TOO much for most pins, if not all, same for premiums. Personally, that doesn't mean i won't buy one, i did with BOND. The broader pinball market won't keep doing it.
The flippers/Distros WERE a big part of the pump and dump scheme. That's over.

Quoted from iceman44:

That's "how it works" now. Not 3, 5, 10 yrs ago. Newbies don't get that.
It's not just about you individually, the general notion that the amount of people they need to buy these NIB games, over an over again, several times a year, isn't going to cut it at these prices with an ever increasing number of people that DON'T feel the way you do. And you are only 5 pins in.
This is BIG picture, everybody takes it personal, it's not. It is what it is.
1,000 LE's at $13k is TOO much for most pins, if not all, same for premiums. Personally, that doesn't mean i won't buy one, i did with BOND. The broader pinball market won't keep doing it.
The flippers/Distros WERE a big part of the pump and dump scheme. That's over.

Quoted from toaster777:I have bought and sold many pins over the years. I only have very little space. If I had more space, trust me I'd have 25 of them. The market will bare what the market will bare - that's the economics of any market. I don't see prices coming down no matter how many times people wish or complain about it. Any manufacturer is loathed to lower their price on a non-commodity item. There will always be a commercial market for these (which was always the initial market for pins to begin with) and there will always be some home buyers for these NIB. A manufacturer will lower its run on a product versus lower its price it's established if fewer home buyers buy them.

Quoted from Xelz:

You might have it backwards. The market isn’t what it was 10 years ago. You have a lot of new consumer entrants, post-pandemic, entering hybrid work environments, post the highest inflation rates this country has seen since the ‘70s, after people with arguable amounts of intelligence who made unarguable loads of money from crypto, massive acquisitions of tech companies with skyrocketed equity, etc.
Amidst the population of people along the demand curve, you’re probably finding yourself toward the right end. Now there’s a large portion left of you willing to pay higher prices than you are, and they’re driving Stern’s pricing strategy.
Is it sustainable? It’s anyone’s guess, and anyone saying they know for sure is lying, at least to themselves. But I’ve been here long enough to watch the doomsayers complain about rising prices for a couple years and we’re only just now maybe seeing Stern ease off on the gas pedal. However, we haven’t seen them hit the brakes. Not yet.

Quoted from toaster777:

I have bought and sold many pins over the years. I only have very little space. If I had more space, trust me I'd have 25 of them. The market will bare what the market will bare - that's the economics of any market. I don't see prices coming down no matter how many times people wish or complain about it. Any manufacturer is loathed to lower their price on a non-commodity item. There will always be a commercial market for these (which was always the initial market for pins to begin with) and there will always be some home buyers for these NIB. A manufacturer will lower its run on a product versus lower its price it's established if fewer home buyers buy them.

Quoted from iceman44:

I can pay the higher prices and have an excellent handle on the overall economy. It’s what I do every day.
The past 2 years are a complete anomaly. Credit card debt is at a peak over $1 trillion.
BOA just reported higher than expected charge offs, other banks as well.
Stern changed their policy on allowing Distros to now buy inventory on credit cards.
What gas pedal has Stern or JJP eased off on yet.
Just a matter of time. Maybe you are right. The road goes on forever and the party never ends?
Nah, never happens that way