(Topic ID: 65024)

D12246 Williams Power Supply 5V issue

By openpinballproj

10 years ago


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Topic Stats

  • 20 posts
  • 7 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 8 months ago by mja
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

You

Linked Games

  • Taxi Williams, 1988
#1 10 years ago

I've got a D12246 Williams power supply board in a Taxi machine with no 5V. (No load it gives 4V and even a small load, pulls of the display drivers, it pulls it down to 3V). The transistor is a ST 2NG057. I desoldered it and I'm planning on replacing it with a 12V to 5V regulator that is rated for 5A. It should be more efficient, and won't use the old comparator circuitry.

I verified the rest of the voltages are rock steady with no ripple issues. (+12V, -12V, +100V and -100V). I found and fixed the shorted coil which toasted the transistor and shorted the 5V supply. Since the 5V is the only voltage that is bad, it seems best to just fix that portion.

Has anybody tried anything similar? It seems like it should work and be significantly more efficient than the previous design. Anything I should be worried about?

#2 10 years ago

Since you input voltages are good i would go ahead and replace Q5. You can use 2n6059. Still no go replace IC1 723PC

#3 10 years ago

Thanks for the info. Your transistor number helped me track down another part that is still around. Since I can't find the spec's on the transistor, I'm really wondering how much 5V current is needed on a Taxi machine? I have a 5V LDO coming in which can support up to 5A. Some of these transistors can handle up to 12A, so I'm not sure if I under specified the part.

#4 10 years ago

Off of the top of my head i think the logic fuse is 4amp. So, that has to be the top end limit. Use 5amp+ transistor.

2N6284 is 20amp and would work fine here as well. Should still be a common part.

#5 10 years ago

Have you replaced C7, C8, and C9? Especially C7, if it is bad replacing the transistor at Q5 will do absolutely no good.

#6 10 years ago

He mentioned the input was good with no ripple on 12v, 100v, and there was a short on the 5v line which i assume takes out Q5.

#7 10 years ago

That's fine, I'm just saying that when you have it out and have the desoldering equipment out, if you don't replace C7 you are setting yourself up for trouble in the future. Of all the WMS and equivalent DE power supplies I've repaired, the 100uF cap is the problem 10x as often as anything else in the 5v section, shorted transistors on the CPU or not.

#8 10 years ago

Short on the 5V line was caused at Q73 and Q75. Those transistors caught on fire and caused a hard short between the base and the emitter. I removed those two transistors (or what remained of them) and verified the short was cleared. (I also replaced the shorted coil that may have been the root cause of all this.) (Funny part is that I was promised this machine when it was working just a few months ago. I had a friend play some games on it before agreeing to the deal. What did they do to it?)

At that point I unplugged all the connectors from the power supply board and verified voltages. I also verified there is only a couple of millivolts of ripple. I looked at the ripple just to make sure that ripple wasn't causing my 5V issue.

5V with only the AC connector plugged in was reading 4V. I tried to load it a little bit by adding the display connector. It went down to 3V.

I've had problems with aged caps before and large amounts of ripple, but I'm pretty sure that is not the case with this machine. Currently I'm just hoping that they didn't cause destroy the MPU board. I have yet to see this thing boot successfully and that is the point when I know I can fix anything else that is wrong.

Thanks for all the info guys.

#9 10 years ago
Quoted from openpinballproj:

I've had problems with aged caps before and large amounts of ripple, but I'm pretty sure that is not the case with this machine.

The little 100uF cap at C7 may not be the source of the problem on this board, but the problem with it is that it is in series with the voltage that goes directly to IC1. If this single cap is weak or bad, nothing else works in the 5v section. And it sits right near the (hot) bridge rectifier and heatsink for Q5. Replace it.

#10 10 years ago

So C7 looks like the decoupling cap with C8 being the power supply smoothing capacitor going to the voltage regulator supply voltage. If C7 is not working, I should see a lot of ripple across C8. I already desoldered the transistor at this point, but I'd love to know what the root issue is. If there is a large amount of ripple on that pin, it would certainly reduce the voltage on the regulated output. I'm going to plug the board back in and see. Should be a quick 5 or 10 minute test tonight.

Regardless, I'm probably end up by just using a voltage regulator to get around that whole circuit and make the power supply 30 or 40% more efficient. (Damn, now I can't keep my coffee cup warm by sitting it on top of the pinball head). We'll see how it goes. Bummer is I won't get the parts until Monday. Arrggggh.

#11 10 years ago

Go with what Stangbat said. Examine voltages going into the 723 before replacing the 723 and his series pass transistor (Q5). A short on the 5V bus is detected by the 723 as a voltage drop across R13. When the voltage drop exceeds a certain threshold (excessive current draw), the 723 begins to turn off the series pass transistor Q5. With connectors pulled - it sounds like you removed the short but it still has a problem pulling up to 5V.

C7 is not a decoupling cap but is actually part of a voltage doubling circuit. Without C7 and C8 - the 723 will be dead. If C7 is not working - you will see no voltage or insufficient voltage across C8. C8 is then the filter cap. What voltage do you measure across C8?

Even though the 723 partially shuts down Q5 in the event of a short - it is still providing some output current. Enough to heat up Q5 - could take out Q5 but worry about him after ruling out incoming voltages to the 723 particularly at pins 11 & 12.

#12 10 years ago

Also, You will get absolutely zero difference in temperature by replacing Q5 with a linear regulator (LDO or not). Unless you go with a switching regulator, the replacement regulator will reduce the voltage in the exact same manner -- as power dissipation into the heat sink. The only thing you would accomplish is installing a kluge that wastes the exact same amount of power.

#13 10 years ago

Most of the 5V problems I find on this board is a leaky C7 (spewing its contents) that severs the traces under it, or a failed LM723. If pins 4 and 5 of the 723 measure different DC voltage with respect to ground, the 723 is shot.

C8 will leak too, but not nearly as often as C7.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.Team-EM.com
http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball/index.htm
http://www.PinWiki.com - The new place for pinball repair info

#14 10 years ago

I got a switching regulator that I was planning on putting in, but it is definitely a point well taken that it will look like a kludge when I put it in. I just measured the voltage and across c7 is 5.2VDC with around .2 VAC ripple. That seems a little high for ripple to supply to that chip. Pin 4 is measuring about 1.1 VDC, and Pin 5 is measuring about 2.4 VDC. I inspected both C7 and C8 and I don't see any leakage or bulging at the end.

There is a little toastiness noticeable on the AC connector to the power supply board, which may indicate it had a high current event.

#15 10 years ago

Thinking about that circuit more, I'm guessing the voltage across c7 should be more than 5.2VDC. Anybody have any good guesses on what a good value is for that voltage? If that is the case is C7 (the cap being used for the boost) or C8 (the cap being used to reduce ripple) the most likely candidate?

#16 10 years ago

Yes, the voltage across C7 should be 12-15vdc. Replace C7. I should have recommended that earlier.

I now do understand what the 723 does in this circuit now.

#17 10 years ago

I second what Chris suggests. I have seen the 723 cause the issue on a couple power supplies. I've also replaced C7 a few times.

#18 10 years ago

The voltage across C7 is still AC.
I'd start by measuring your incoming AC at J1...then work across the board.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.Team-EM.com
http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball/index.htm
http://www.PinWiki.com - The new place for pinball repair info

#19 10 years ago

BTW...leaky caps don't always "show their stuff" with a bulge. Sometimes the leakage isn't apparent until you remove the cap from the board. Then you can see where it damaged traces.

See: http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Data_East/Sega#Missing_5VDC

That's a DE article, but the supplies are nearly identical. In the DE PS, C2 is equivalent to C7 in the Williams PS.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.Team-EM.com
http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball/index.htm
http://www.PinWiki.com - The new place for pinball repair info

9 years later
#20 8 months ago

Thanks the cap was thi issue on my machine big help

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