(Topic ID: 262939)

Cutting plastics with laser or router

By dimesandquarters

4 years ago


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  • 34 posts
  • 14 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 4 years ago by Mr_Tantrum
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    #1 4 years ago

    I’ve been trying to figure out what CNC to buy for cutting repro playfield plastics. This has been covered in a few threads but they are old and don’t really answer my questions:

    Looking at the low-end units on Amazon, there is a popular unit called Genmitsu CNC 3018-PRO, available from several vendors for around $250. It comes with a small motor and optionally a 3w laser, though I believe a somewhat more powerful laser can be fitted.

    Previous threads have indicated these cheap lasers can cut 1/16” acrylic but I question that, especially clear acrylic. The only YouTubes I can find use much more powerful units, as the laser tends to penetrate clear plastics rather than cut. Has anyone here actually used a cheap laser like these to cut 1/16” clear plastic? How much wattage, or what type is required? What is the most affordable laser cutter that would do a satisfactory job?

    Also, has anyone used one of these $250 CNCs to cut 1/16” acrylic or PETG using the router motor and bit? Does it work well? Again, I can’t find YouTube videos that use these cheap CNCs to cut plastic, only to lightly engrave it.

    I’m also considering a unit in the $1000+ range such as a Carbide3D Shapeoko. I’m certain they would do the job (with a motor not a laser) but may be overkill. Also I don’t believe a laser option is available.

    Your thoughts appreciated.

    Randy

    #2 4 years ago

    Following.

    I'm thinking you might need a low end co2 laser. Router was my thought but I wonder about chipping. I know cpr uses laser but many places won't cut plastic with laser due to fume extraction

    #3 4 years ago

    Having been in the laser and waterjet machining world for years I think you would have trouble doing anything more then etching plastic with 3w. Typical plastic for pinball will be in the .094” to 1/8” range. You would need at least 50w to cut that and even that would be tough. Also note for cutting acrylic the gas is toxic so you also need a Very good evacuation system and an enclosed unit. Going to be hard to find a laser in your $250 range that would solve your problem. I use a waterjet for plastics but often need to flame polish the edges for clear plastics for a transparent edge.

    #4 4 years ago
    Quoted from Yelobird:

    You would need at least 50w to cut thatHad a 20W an that was ok for that thickness. Wattage will also depend on the tube, Metal or Glass. 3w will give you problems I'd have thought. I'd say a minimum of 10W for 1/16" acrylic

    #5 4 years ago

    I am assuming this is like the bare minimum you would be able to get away with but I have no idea.

    https://www.amazon.com/Orion-Motor-Engraver-Cutter-Exhaust/dp/B01EJDH1BO/ref=sr_1_6

    Would still love to know anyone who is doing this on a home user type piece of equipment.

    #6 4 years ago
    Quoted from harryhoudini:

    I am assuming this is like the bare minimum you would be able to get away with but I have no idea.
    amazon.com link »
    Would still love to know anyone who is doing this on a home user type piece of equipment.

    Right, harryhoudini — thanks for the link; the reviews say you can cut up to 3/8” acrylic with that unit, up to a 12” x 8” piece of material. For that much money I think I might find more use (and less dangerous fumes) with a larger, motorized CNC. I know I can cut PETG without hazardous fumes, but I have repro PETG plastics that have started to sag. I believe acrylic will be stiffer.

    I still have not heard of anyone using a unit like this https://www.amazon.com/Genmitsu-3018-PRO-Control-Engraving-300x180x45mm/dp/B07P6K9BL3 (motorized, not laser) to cut 1/16” or 1/8” acrylic (or PETG for that matter.)

    If anyone who reads this has had success with a similar low-end CNC, I’d appreciate knowing exactly what bit, spindle speed, cutting speed, depth, etc. worked for you. I’m still torn between this cheap-o unit and a Carbide 3D Shapeoko. I don’t really need the larger unit if the small one will work, but I don’t want to buy a cheap tool only to find the need to upgrade later.

    Thanks to all who replied.

    Randy

    #7 4 years ago

    I'm interested in a small cnc router as well. Might pick one up and I can test if i do.

    #8 4 years ago

    Aren't acrylics brittle and more prone to braking that PETG?

    I'm not an expert, but I though most modern pinball (flat) plastics are PETG now..?

    #9 4 years ago

    Acrylic
    - generally most acrylics are more brittle than PTEG
    - if cnc'd will need flame or hand sanding / polishing to the cut edges (hand sanding / polishing is a pain)
    - if laser cutting 40 watt laser and up will cut 3mm thick will cut nicely (add high air assist to clear the smoke and adds to a glossy finish)
    - fume extraction is required - fumes aren't healthy but not as toxic and Poly Carb

    PTEG
    - PTEG have similar cutting qualities to Acrylics but more impact resistant than Acrylic
    - if cnc'd will need flame or hand sanding / polishing to the cut edges (hand sanding / polishing is a pain)
    - if laser cutting 40 watt laser and up will cut 3mm thick will cut nicely (add high air assist to clear the smoke and adds to a glossy finish)
    - fume extraction is required - fumes aren't healthy but not as toxic and Poly Carb

    Poly Carbonate
    - Poly Carb is high impact resistance and need UV resistant otherwise it will yellow after about 2 years and get brittle
    - can only be cnc'd, adviseable not to flame polish and can hand sand / polish to the cut edges but a pain
    - can not be laser cut (well it can) but highly toxic and releases a carcinogenic gas - stay away and if laser cut edges go yellow and super high pitch squeal

    I dare say most pinball companies would use PTEG for pinball plastics - hope that helps

    #10 4 years ago
    Quoted from Lamprey:

    Aren't acrylics brittle and more prone to braking that PETG?
    I'm not an expert, but I though most modern pinball (flat) plastics are PETG now..?

    Correct. Acrylic has the clarity of glass but is also almost just as fragile. PETG polycarbonate sheets are the preferred material in our pin world but crappy to cut on a CO2

    #11 4 years ago

    when cncing the important things are:
    - type of cutter used
    - cut feed rate
    - spindle speed

    - the software needs to allow for the last pass to be a clean up pass so it cleans up the whole edge so effectively the first 2 cuts are stepped out 0.2mm and the last cut one steps in and uses the cutter cutting shaft to cleanup the whole cut edge
    - depending on the feed rate and spindle speed and cutter diameter make depth cut 1/2 - 1 times the cutter diameter
    - running the machine and spindle too slow will heat weld the cut acrylic shavings and turn into a mess

    #12 4 years ago

    I cnc machine polycarbonate protectors on my machining centers. I've never had an issue with "yellowing".

    Acrylic is VERY brittle and is very tricky to machine without breakage, (I do it all of the time, but then again, I've been machining plastic for 35+ years).

    This is my latest machining center. It cost $80k

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    #13 4 years ago
    Quoted from indypinhead:

    I cnc machine polycarbonate protectors on my machining centers. I've never had an issue with "yellowing".
    Acrylic is VERY brittle and is very tricky to machine without breakage, (I do it all of the time, but then again, I've been machining plastic for 35+ years).
    This is my latest machining center. It cost $80k[quoted image]

    Yeah I think he was talking about burning with a laser. CNC machining center or waterjet is the best route in my book. I have one of these to cut Any material from .001" to 12" thick. A bit overkill for pinball parts but Bigger is always more fun! lol

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    #14 4 years ago
    Quoted from indypinhead:

    I cnc machine polycarbonate protectors on my machining centers. I've never had an issue with "yellowing".
    Acrylic is VERY brittle and is very tricky to machine without breakage, (I do it all of the time, but then again, I've been machining plastic for 35+ years).
    This is my latest machining center. It cost $80k[quoted image]

    Mind me asking what shop in Indy you have? I have about 40 in that area with the primary being waterjet cutting of Indiana. Great area from their to Columbus Building America! Love it.

    #15 4 years ago
    Quoted from Yelobird:

    Mind me asking what shop in Indy you have? I have about 40 in that area with the primary being waterjet cutting of Indiana. Great area from their to Columbus Building America! Love it.

    I'll send you a PM

    #16 4 years ago

    some poly carb (non UV resistant) will yellow if exposed to the sunlight alot - well in Australia we have different types for machine guards etc. And yes when laser cut will go yellow on the edges and releases toxic gas - stay away from.

    I wish I still had access to a big machine - just have a small and cheap home on now. I had a big one but sold to make room for the new hobby of pinball 10 years ago - wish I knew what I could have done with it now ...

    10 years ago I worked for a company making cnc router, plasmas and laser machines
    https://multicam.com.au/

    #17 4 years ago

    So guys, now that you've swung your machines around what is the best cheap method? CNC router?

    #18 4 years ago
    Quoted from harryhoudini:

    So guys, now that you've swung your machines around what is the best cheap method? CNC router?

    I built a variation of the ox cnc for home on a table that hinges and stores vertical against the garage wall. I made it big enough to cut playfields.

    http://makerstore.cc/product/ox-cnc-mechanical-kit-large/

    and got mine from ooznest UK, with the worker bee being the better upgraded replacement now
    https://ooznest.co.uk/product-category/machines/cnc-machines/

    but the drive system is X-Carve as they have a good forum

    #19 4 years ago

    All this talk about cutting plastics...Who can I pay to make me a small set ?

    #20 4 years ago

    I cut plastic on the 150w laser at my local maker space with great success

    #21 4 years ago

    Check if you have a local MakerSpace. I can cut for free at my local library on a $20,000 laser cutter.

    #22 4 years ago

    Go to Pololu.com and check out their custom laser cutting options. I’ve had success with this service

    #23 4 years ago

    I'm interested how plastics are made. petg, printed or silkscreened then cut? or cut then printed?
    All my custom stuff has been on acrylic reverse digital print then clear petg protectors under neath.
    No one I have found is able to print on petg and cut.

    #24 4 years ago
    Quoted from KJS:

    I'm interested how plastics are made. petg, printed or silkscreened then cut? or cut then printed?
    All my custom stuff has been on acrylic reverse digital print then clear petg protectors under neath.
    No one I have found is able to print on petg and cut.

    The plastics I've purchased from jjp as a whole set or the custom ones cpr has made for me are reverse printed on a large sheet, white coating behind and laser cut.

    Thanks for the input everyone. Now to decide.

    #25 4 years ago

    I use a Workbee with spindle I bought on AliExpress. Ooznest Duet control. You can buy the whole thing off ooznest, but you will pay about $500 more. It's an open source design, so there is a lot of info out there on them. But if you aren't mechanically inclined as well as tech inclined, don't bother. Also plan on getting good at CAD, and learning Fusion 360 or some other modeling software. I use Solidworks.
    Screenshot_20200224-180711_Gallery (resized).jpgScreenshot_20200224-180711_Gallery (resized).jpg

    #26 4 years ago

    Also avoid the belt driven options like Shapeoko. They tend to be less robust and more finicky with belt tension, especially when it comes to cutting circles. Screw driven workbees are the same price as the older belt driven version...you're crazy not to get the screw driven one. You can go up to 1500x1500 and still get screws. Due to space limitations, I went 1000x750, which gives me a 21" wide cutting area on the narrow dimension.

    #27 4 years ago

    AH nice... so what would a setup like yours cost?

    #28 4 years ago
    Quoted from harryhoudini:

    AH nice... so what would a setup like yours cost?

    Roughly $1400 give or take. You could save a couple hundred not using the Duet, but it was much less hassle to get going by using this route.

    #29 4 years ago

    Thanks! So many thing I could see using that for.

    #30 4 years ago

    I finally found a video online showing somebody cutting .125” acrylic with cheap 3018-PRO CNC, so I know it can be done. Of course the precision of that unit isn’t great but that’s not really an issue cutting pinball plastics. The unit sold by Sainsmart actually gets pretty good reviews considering the price. The big negative is that the software isn’t plug and play - in fact there was a virus associated with one of the free programs. But that can be overcome if you’re willing to deal with a lot of trial and error.
    The Shapeoko 3 is a lot more money, but is significantly more powerful, much larger, and extremely rigid. I played with the free software they provide and it seems great. Support is reputed to be excellent and I emailed them some questions and got a good reply.
    The Workbee sounds like a good unit especially the screw drive, though it is slower and I just have too many open questions buying a unit from overseas.
    That said, I’m going to pull the trigger on a Shapeoko. Thanks for all the feedback!

    #31 4 years ago

    Thanks for the recap. Post here once you use it!

    4 weeks later
    #32 4 years ago

    Following up my original post. I bought and built a Carbide3D Shapeoko 3, standard size. This is a fantastic piece of equipment with excellent free software, although the documentation that’s currently available is terrible. I bought mine with a lead screw Z axis at extra cost, and there is no documentation that is specific to installing it on a standard size unit. The docs refer to another manual that no longer exists, so it was pretty frustrating. Their tech support seems to reply 24x7 though, so that was great.
    The Shapeoko will be great for cutting plastics, and you can even use it to machine circuit boards and of course wood and soft metals like aluminum. I will say it’s extremely large and heavy compared to the Genmitsu 3018 Pro, and you do get what you pay for.
    Based on a number of videos I watched, the $200 eBay CNC would be perfectly fine for cutting pinball plastics as long as you don’t need to cut very large ones.
    The Genmitsu is very well packaged and relatively easy to assemble, but the software may prove challenging. If you jump in knowing that you’ll have to work through problems, and don’t want to spend $1000+, then it’s probably the better choice.
    But I’m glad I bought the Shapeoko because I’ll own it forever and can do all kinds of fun things with it beyond cutting plastics.
    Regarding laser cutters, if you can use a high end unit in a maker space or whatever, that’s also a great solution. But a home unit that’s powerful enough to cut plastic is going to be very pricey and possibly not as flexible as a CNC for other projects.
    Hope that helps!

    #33 4 years ago

    Thanks for the update!

    #34 4 years ago
    Quoted from dimesandquarters:

    Following up my original post. I bought and built a Carbide3D Shapeoko 3, standard size. This is a fantastic piece of equipment with excellent free software, although the documentation that’s currently available is terrible. I bought mine with a lead screw Z axis at extra cost, and there is no documentation that is specific to installing it on a standard size unit. The docs refer to another manual that no longer exists, so it was pretty frustrating. Their tech support seems to reply 24x7 though, so that was great.
    The Shapeoko will be great for cutting plastics, and you can even use it to machine circuit boards and of course wood and soft metals like aluminum. I will say it’s extremely large and heavy compared to the Genmitsu 3018 Pro, and you do get what you pay for.
    Based on a number of videos I watched, the $200 eBay CNC would be perfectly fine for cutting pinball plastics as long as you don’t need to cut very large ones.
    The Genmitsu is very well packaged and relatively easy to assemble, but the software may prove challenging. If you jump in knowing that you’ll have to work through problems, and don’t want to spend $1000+, then it’s probably the better choice.
    But I’m glad I bought the Shapeoko because I’ll own it forever and can do all kinds of fun things with it beyond cutting plastics.
    Regarding laser cutters, if you can use a high end unit in a maker space or whatever, that’s also a great solution. But a home unit that’s powerful enough to cut plastic is going to be very pricey and possibly not as flexible as a CNC for other projects.
    Hope that helps!

    So, have you actually cut any plastics yet (can you post some pics)? I've been mulling over your exact scenario in your original post as I do custom mods and would really like to be able to do some per-order plastics. Apart from initial large commitment runs, I currently make plastics by hand which is quite the pain, and while I typically can do straight cuts on PETG fairly well, I do have difficulty getting nice smoothly rounded curves and drilling the holes in precise locatiions. Figured if I had a small home DIY machine I could more easily cut the pieces and just finish the edges as needed.

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