(Topic ID: 329663)

Creature chase lamps issue - every two lamps stuck on rather than cha

By DaveTheTrain

1 year ago


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#1 1 year ago

I've been 'restoring' a creature which had sat in a shed for years, it wasn't owned by a pinhead so a few things werent noticed and it was a state!

The chase lamps on the ramps and whirlpool are behaving oddly.
They all turn on and off fine. But when in chase mode every two lamps is on steady while the next two are flickering(I believe this is what they should be doing).
Here's a short clip to illustrate
https://photos.app.goo.gl/bCG6Uoo4KL1aFVKc7

I've tried
swapping incandescents back in and only plugging in one board (the whirlpool for example)

I've checked the schematic and these are the four pins and where they go on U2
Screenshot_20230119_192319_OneDrive~3 (resized).jpgScreenshot_20230119_192319_OneDrive~3 (resized).jpg
Screenshot_20230119_175834_OneDrive (resized).jpgScreenshot_20230119_175834_OneDrive (resized).jpg
I'm a novice and this is as far as I can go, I don't see how all four lines have failed and have no connection until U2. Unless it's coincidence four components have failed Inbetween.

Could someone advise?
Is it likely to be the chase board? I am hoping to get a Stumblor chase echo board soon so if it is the board its no big issue as it's being replaced, i just worry it could be something further back and would be nice to have a go at fixing for my soldering practice

#2 1 year ago

In your case you mention they are stuck on and your markup of the schematic suggest a pairing of output stages. If we back up through the circuit we see that U2 is driven by a pair of 2 to 4 line decoders in U1. But if we back up one more stage we see that the inputs of both U1A/B are driven by Q17/18. So in theory if one of those 2 2N4403s is bad then that would result in bad inputs on both U1A/B and half of each of the decoders not working. Since each decoder has 4 outputs, that would be 2 output channels each for a total of 4 output channels. So I'm thinking that one of the 2 input trans is bad or maybe bad connections on J2. The only thing that isn't lining up with that diagnosis is that the pairs of stuck outputs from U2 don't appear to be symmetric. So I wonder if you maybe marked up the schematics incorrectly above?

Not specific you what you list above but note:
The lamp board on this game wasn't going to last. The board itself is probably completely cooked (mine is) and the connectors on the ramp lamp boards are probably flakey too. I ended up cutting out all the triacs and resistors in the output section attempting to clean the board. However the heat damage is so bad all sorts of traces and pads just fell off. So I had to make lots of fixes and simply replaced the output section with new which corrected most of my issues. Someday I'm going to start making gerbers up for all these WMS boards so I can make OEM looking replacements. Which in the long run isn't really going to solve the problems but the game isn't ever on for 16hrs a day 7 days a week either.

#3 1 year ago
Quoted from bakerhillpins:

In your case you mention they are stuck on and your markup of the schematic suggest a pairing of output stages. If we back up through the circuit we see that U2 is driven by a pair of 2 to 4 line decoders in U1. But if we back up one more stage we see that the inputs of both U1A/B are driven by Q17/18. So in theory if one of those 2 2N4403s is bad then that would result in bad inputs on both U1A/B and half of each of the decoders not working. Since each decoder has 4 outputs, that would be 2 output channels each for a total of 4 output channels. So I'm thinking that one of the 2 input trans is bad or maybe bad connections on J2. The only thing that isn't lining up with that diagnosis is that the pairs of stuck outputs from U2 don't appear to be symmetric. So I wonder if you maybe marked up the schematics incorrectly above?
Not specific you what you list above but note:
The lamp board on this game wasn't going to last. The board itself is probably completely cooked (mine is) and the connectors on the ramp lamp boards are probably flakey too. I ended up cutting out all the triacs and resistors in the output section attempting to clean the board. However the heat damage is so bad all sorts of traces and pads just fell off. So I had to make lots of fixes and simply replaced the output section with new which corrected most of my issues. Someday I'm going to start making gerbers up for all these WMS boards so I can make OEM looking replacements. Which in the long run isn't really going to solve the problems but the game isn't ever on for 16hrs a day 7 days a week either.

Before I read your post I'd tried a new IC in U2 and because I was at a loss, I tried swapping two of the triacs, which frankly was a disaster. My solder sucker eventually destroyed the pads, I assume not only due to my bad soldering but because of what you say about heat damage. So one (q8) isn't present at the moment.

I might have a look at Q17 and Q18, what is a good way to test them with a DMM?

I'm pretty sure my mark up is correct, I traced the wires and double checked. I suppose checking those transistors will tell us?

I tried swapping the two D1 and D2 inputs to see if it was the driver board and the problem swapped LEDs but it didn't, so it must be an issue on the chase lamp board.

I'm getting a replacement soon anyway but really wanted to have a go at fixing it or at least know it is the board and not an issue elsewhere.

#4 1 year ago
Quoted from DaveTheTrain:

Before I read your post I'd tried a new IC in U2 and because I was at a loss, I tried swapping two of the triacs, which frankly was a disaster. My solder sucker eventually destroyed the pads, I assume not only due to my bad soldering but because of what you say about heat damage.

Yea, you really need to be super careful about removing those parts anyway but the cooked boards make it worse. I destructively removed all the parts (cut all the pins) and then just cleaned each hole out. But cleaning up the pads is what killed stuff. Just peeled back when I was trying to clean them. Anyway, it's an uphill battle even for those of us with a bunch of exp.

Quoted from DaveTheTrain:

I might have a look at Q17 and Q18, what is a good way to test them with a DMM?

Transistor testing with DMM via google is your friend.

Quoted from DaveTheTrain:

I'm pretty sure my mark up is correct, I traced the wires and double checked. I suppose checking those transistors will tell us?

Checking the transistors may tell us but it doesn't match your schematic markup, we'd expect symmetry on U2.

Quoted from DaveTheTrain:

I tried swapping the two D1 and D2 inputs to see if it was the driver board and the problem swapped LEDs but it didn't, so it must be an issue on the chase lamp board.

I don't undestand this statement???

#5 1 year ago
Quoted from bakerhillpins:

I don't undestand this statement???

Sorry I might be barking up the wrong tree but I assumed D1 and D2 on J2 were the two halves that control the lights. They go to different pins on j126 on the power driver board so I wondered if one of the pre drives had failed in the backbox. By swapping the wires and seeing if the issue moved to different lamps I thought it would eliminate it being the chase board or the power driver board.

I might be wrong about everything I just said! I still have a basic understanding of how these things work.

I swapped those two transistors as I had spares, and no luck. I think I might leave it now as the pads on one of the triacs are gone and the legs on it broke off which makes it near impossible to put back in.
I'm getting a Chase Echo board so I think for my own sanity i should leave it and get on with the rest of the game. I doubt there will be issues with the new board, if there is at least I know it's something else!

I just get fixated and determined to fix things even though my skill level isn't good enough!

#6 1 year ago

Don't be too discouraged about your board repair skill.

I can think of a lot of things that require board repair in pinball that are easier than this board.

One thing that you might consider the next time you have a board repair problem.

On the schematic, Q17, and Q18 are connected the same way. So with your DMM, you should be able to read about the same things on them, even when they are still connected on the board. If one transistor's numbers on the meter were a lot different than the other, I would THEN pull the transistor, and test it out of circuit.

When testing electronics, usually in order to get good readings you'll have to pull the component off the board... you take it out of the circuit in order to find out if it tests OK with your meter.

But if you've got duplicate circuits, you can quickly see if things are reading identically.

On this board, you can quickly check Q1, Q2, Q5, Q6, Q9, Q10, Q13 and Q14, which are all 2n4403 transistors, all hooked up the same way. Even though you aren't going to 'transitor test' these until you pull them out of circuit, if any of these has a different reading than the others, that'll be a good thing to desolder, pull out of circuit, and test. If they all read identical, you probably don't have a problem with these transistors.

Finally, I run a lot of 'bug wires' to connect things that have broken traces. Point to point wiring can get your board working again. It's not pretty, but it can get the job done.

Don't be discouraged because this ended up being really difficult. There is a good chance your next board repair will be much easier.

#7 1 year ago
Quoted from DaveTheTrain:

Sorry I might be barking up the wrong tree but I assumed D1 and D2 on J2 were the two halves that control the lights. They go to different pins on j126 on the power driver board so I wondered if one of the pre drives had failed in the backbox. By swapping the wires and seeing if the issue moved to different lamps I thought it would eliminate it being the chase board or the power driver board.
I might be wrong about everything I just said! I still have a basic understanding of how these things work.

Ah, ok. I kinda thought that's what you meant but I just wasn't reading that. Yes, that would have been a good test to prove if it was on the board. Typically want to do that before you start working on the board though as you can (as you are no doubt aware) create more problems.

Quoted from DaveTheTrain:

I swapped those two transistors as I had spares, and no luck. I think I might leave it now as the pads on one of the triacs are gone and the legs on it broke off which makes it near impossible to put back in.
I'm getting a Chase Echo board so I think for my own sanity i should leave it and get on with the rest of the game. I doubt there will be issues with the new board, if there is at least I know it's something else!
I just get fixated and determined to fix things even though my skill level isn't good enough!

As it appears to be a non symmetric error (you confirmed it's not an error in your markup), I'd be going after the U1 or U2 after your swap the inputs test. Those are TTL level signals so you could probe the input/output pairs of U2 and that would probably tell you which of the 2 chips it is/was.

2 weeks later
#8 1 year ago

I'm back... I left it a while as I thought I'd messed it up. But I couldn't resist having another look.

I got a replacement Q8 as I broke the existing one. I used the new ones legs to fix the broken pads and I've got continuity where I should.

I can now get all the lamps to light but not chase, so back to the original issue.

On J2 you have D1 and D2 (drive 1 and drive 2).
I think I established they do half the LEDs each and as one of you said, the pcb is two mirrored circuits.

J2 I believe is how the board is told to start chasing. Drive 2 seems fine but drive 1 doesn't do anything. I swapped the wires over so Blu-gry that normall goes into D2 goes into D1 (just turned the plug side ways) and I get nothing.

Looking at the schematic D2 goes to R29 and D1 goes to R27, then to R7 and R9 respectively.

The first two resistors measure around the same. But the next two, R9 on drive 1 measures 000.8 whereas it's brother R7 on the drive 2 circuit measures 4.790.

Could this mean R9 is failed or could something else cause this reading?

20230203_165556 (resized).jpg20230203_165556 (resized).jpg20230203_165600 (resized).jpg20230203_165600 (resized).jpg
#9 1 year ago
Quoted from DaveTheTrain:

R9 on drive 1 measures 000.8

Zero Ohm across R9 is more likely the transistor Q18 shorted between 'base' and 'emitter'.
Easiest way is to lift one leg of the resistor out of the PCB, then measure the resistor (out of circuit).
When it gives 4K7 , the resistor is OK, and transistor is shorted.

chase drv (resized).pngchase drv (resized).png

#10 1 year ago
Quoted from DaveTheTrain:

I can now get all the lamps to light but not chase, so back to the original issue.
On J2 you have D1 and D2 (drive 1 and drive 2).
I think I established they do half the LEDs each and as one of you said, the pcb is two mirrored circuits.
J2 I believe is how the board is told to start chasing. Drive 2 seems fine but drive 1 doesn't do anything. I swapped the wires over so Blu-gry that normall goes into D2 goes into D1 (just turned the plug side ways) and I get nothing.
Looking at the schematic D2 goes to R29 and D1 goes to R27, then to R7 and R9 respectively.
The first two resistors measure around the same. But the next two, R9 on drive 1 measures 000.8 whereas it's brother R7 on the drive 2 circuit measures 4.790.
Could this mean R9 is failed or could something else cause this reading?[quoted image][quoted image]

First off, are you doing these tests in via the service menu or just testing while in attract mode?

Do you own a logic probe? The easiest test to perform at this point is to put it in chase test and probe the inputs/outputs of the LS139. Since NONE of the chase is working, simply take the A side of U1 (U1A) and validate the the input signals, U1 pins 2 & 3. Are they toggling? They should be. If yes, move to testing the outputs, U1 pins 4,5,6,7. They should also be toggling.

#11 1 year ago
Quoted from bakerhillpins:First off, are you doing these tests in via the service menu or just testing while in attract mode?
Do you own a logic probe? The easiest test to perform at this point is to put it in chase test and probe the inputs/outputs of the LS139. Since NONE of the chase is working, simply take the A side of U1 (U1A) and validate the the input signals, U1 pins 2 & 3. Are they toggling? They should be. If yes, move to testing the outputs, U1 pins 4,5,6,7. They should also be toggling.

On the chase ramp lights test.

I've got a logic probe. I'll have a go at that next. My logic probe requires 5v and ground. Where is good for 5v with the PF lifted? I'm used to using the probe in the backbox with the test points available.

Quoted from zaza:

Zero Ohm across R9 is more likely the transistor Q18 shorted between 'base' and 'emitter'.
Easiest way is to lift one leg of the resistor out of the PCB, then measure the resistor (out of circuit).
When it gives 4K7 , the resistor is OK, and transistor is shorted.
[quoted image]

Is there a way to test if Q18 is shorted or easier to lift the resistor like suggested?

#12 1 year ago

R9 wasn't too hard to remove one leg... It tests ok!

So Q18?

#13 1 year ago

When one leg of the resistor was removed, you could measure resistance on the solderpads of the resistor to get the resistance between 'e' and 'b' of Q18.
Expect this shorted. Could be Q18 or traces shorted by excessive solder. (looking at this section, this might be possible)
Q17-18 (resized).pngQ17-18 (resized).png

#14 1 year ago

Those two transistors Q17 and Q18. I pulled and replaced both as Q17 was short between two legs and lots of traces were a mess. It was easier to take them out and understand what's going on. One of them was definitely dead, but it seemed like it was Q17 which didn't make sense!
Now all lamps light but only every other lamp chases.

Quoted from bakerhillpins:

First off, are you doing these tests in via the service menu or just testing while in attract mode?
Do you own a logic probe? The easiest test to perform at this point is to put it in chase test and probe the inputs/outputs of the LS139. Since NONE of the chase is working, simply take the A side of U1 (U1A) and validate the the input signals, U1 pins 2 & 3. Are they toggling? They should be. If yes, move to testing the outputs, U1 pins 4,5,6,7. They should also be toggling.

In chase test.

Pin 1 - Low
Pin 2 - Low
Pin 3 - toggling between low high
Pin 4 - toggling between low high
Pin 5 - high
Pin 6 -toggling between low high
Pin 7 - High
Pin 8 - low

Poking J2 ( out of curiosity just incase it points to a driver board issue)
D1 - toggling very fast
D2 - toggling slower than D1

Video of the lamp behaviour

Logic probe on the triacs and J2
The top row of triacs q3 q7 q11 and q15 are on high,
The bottom row are toggling

#15 1 year ago
Quoted from DaveTheTrain:

Now all lamps light but only every other lamp chases.

In chase test.
Pin 1 - Low
Pin 2 - Low
Pin 3 - toggling between low high
Pin 4 - toggling between low high
Pin 5 - high
Pin 6 -toggling between low high
Pin 7 - High

Poking J2 ( out of curiosity just incase it points to a driver board issue)
D1 - toggling very fast
D2 - toggling slower than D1

Ok, so something between D1 (J2 pin 1) and U1A input A (Pin 2) is bad.

First: Understand the truth table for the a 139. Here we have to select elements of the table based upon your signal tests above:

pasted_image (resized).pngpasted_image (resized).png

We're only interested in the section of the table where G (Pin 1) is Low "L". That gives us 4 rows of Select signals (A, B) and Outputs (Y0-3) to evaluate. Now, your testing determined that Pin 2 stays Low (Select A) so that means that only the rows where Select A is listed as "L" are valid options. If you examine you'll note that Y1 and Y3 (Pins 5 and 7) are always High "H" and that Y0 and Y2 toggle with Pin 3 (Select B). This is what your data shows.

pasted_image (resized).pngpasted_image (resized).png

It's also why only half the lights flash.

U1A Select A (U1A Pin 2) is fed from D1. Your testing says D1 is toggling. So we'd expect Select A to also be toggling but it's not. So there's something between the 2 that's not working. As you already swapped out the transistors and tested the resistors, and thus I'll assume they are still good (and not blown again). Then I'm wondering if you should test for continuity between all the components between D1 input and U1A Pin 2.

pasted_image (resized).pngpasted_image (resized).png

Off the cuff... Validate that the header, J2, doesn't have any cold solder joints.
And that the wire is sufficiently seated into the IDC connector.

Quoted from DaveTheTrain:

Logic probe on the triacs and J2
The top row of triacs q3 q7 q11 and q15 are on high,
The bottom row are toggling

Shouldn't be using Logic probe on the triacs (Or the inputs D1/2) as the probe is meant for TTL based logic levels. Those devices are operating between 0-12v where the probe expects 0-5v.

#16 1 year ago
Quoted from bakerhillpins:

Ok, so something between D1 (J2 pin 1) and U1A input A (Pin 2) is bad.
First: Understand the truth table for the a 139. Here we have to select elements of the table based upon your signal tests above:
We're only interested in the section of the table where G (Pin 1) is Low "L". That gives us 4 rows of Select signals (A, B) and Outputs (Y0-3) to evaluate. Now, your testing determined that Pin 2 stays Low (Select A) so that means that only the rows where Select A is listed as "L" are valid options. If you examine you'll note that Y1 and Y3 (Pins 5 and 7) are always High "H" and that Y0 and Y2 toggle with Pin 3 (Select B). This is what your data shows.
It's also why only half the lights flash.
U1A Select A (U1A Pin 2) is fed from D1. Your testing says D1 is toggling. So we'd expect Select A to also be toggling but it's not. So there's something between the 2 that's not working. As you already swapped out the transistors and tested the resistors, and thus I'll assume they are still good (and not blown again). Then I'm wondering if you should test for continuity between all the components between D1 input and U1A Pin 2. Off the cuff... Validate that the header, J2, doesn't have any cold solder joints.

Shouldn't be using Logic probe on the triacs (Or the inputs D1/2) as the probe is meant for TTL based logic levels. Those devices are operating between 0-12v.
[quoted image][quoted image]

! ! ! Look at that, it works!

There was no continuity from Q17 to R27, Yes Q17!

It seems the schematic is wrong and has them the wrong way round
R27 goes to Q17 and R28 goes to Q18

Only realised the discrepancy by testing the path back from U1A-2.
Thanks so much.

It's working!

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