(Topic ID: 237367)

CPR playfield preorders are meaningless


By tomdrum

84 days ago



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  • Latest reply 48 days ago by CPR
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Topic index (key posts)

2 key posts have been marked in this topic

Post #53 Explanation of CPR PF blank vs Stern PF blank hardness Posted by CPR (83 days ago)

Post #66 Explanation of reasons for CPR preorder estimation process Posted by KevinCPR (83 days ago)


Topic indices are generated from key posts and maintained by Pinside Editors. For more information, or to become an editor yourself read this post!

There are 253 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 6.
13
#1 84 days ago

Signed up for my 1st CPR playfield, Bally Playboy last February in the "standard Pre-orders" Received a confirmation email I was in. Shortly afterwards it closed to preorders. Saw a few weeks ago that they would be shipping them. In the past I've seen that they email pre-orders in "waves" and since I was near the end I figured I would be one of the last. Saw them selling silver and bronze grades on their website and thought I'd be getting a gold since I preordered. Talked to another Pinside member last night finalizing a deal on a game for Pinfest and he mentioned he signed up for the same PF in 2016 and was offered a silver grade which he declined. I emailed them last night asking where I was on the PF list. Kevin's response:

Unfortunately, we never got along as far as your list position on this
one. They sold out, down to (5) pretty bad Bronzes, as of 4 weeks ago.
We stopped emailing the list back then. The bronzes sold out on the web
site, eventually. We literally have none.

Awesome. So they will sell all the silver and bronze grade to the general public and ignore the folks who committed and waited on the preorder list. Talked to Larry at Starship, he has none either.

On the plus side I'll be bringing a Playboy to Pinfest with a beat PF for sale and will be listing an impossible to get set of Pinball Pimp cabinet stencils on eBay for the highest bidder since I'm done with this project.

25
#2 84 days ago

Stop complaining about CPR!
I've had 2 heart attacks and a stroke.
That shit saved my life!
I kept going into the light, hoping to see god, but all I saw was that valid power detector of a Bally board STUCK ON!
More for me to fix!

#4 84 days ago

How bad is your playfield? Have you considered sending it to a playfield restoration specialist?

#5 84 days ago
Quoted from ryanbrooks:

How bad is your playfield? Have you considered sending it to a playfield restoration specialist?

Not many people will restore worn playfields anymore. And it they do it's very very expensive or a shitty job.

#6 84 days ago

Interesting concept about a lack of Golds. CPR's own web site says the Gold/Silver/Bronze production is 85%/10%/5%. I really question those numbers. I'll shop anywhere I can for a PF besides CPR. Kevin's PFs are my last resort. Why would any reputable business sell anything less than a "gold PF"? CPR's tiered playfield scheme is an excuse for mediocracy. They print PFs on crap wood not suitable for any PF. The wood should have been tossed in the dumpster. But Kevin manufactures it anyway, calls it a Bronze and sells it for a small savings over a gold.

I will say though, I have no issue with CPR plastics and backglasses.

-2
#7 84 days ago

I've bought from these guys in Germany: https://mircoplayfields.com/en/
..a funhouse playfield and I'm very happy with it
Ask them if they have a playboy pf, they just might

-1
#8 84 days ago
Quoted from provato:

I've bought from these guys in Germany: https://mircoplayfields.com/en/
..a funhouse playfield and I'm very happy with it
Ask them if they have a playboy pf, they just might

Microplayfields are awesome. Great quality, nice clear, great customer service!

18
#9 84 days ago
Quoted from Toucanf16:

Microplayfields are awesome. Great quality, nice clear, great customer service!

Except when he makes fake legal threats on his competitors for copyrights he does not own in an effort to drive them out of business.

-9
#10 84 days ago

Not this again... that sucks - I'm sure you were wanting one pretty badly.

email them to ask if they'll do a direct print one-off. If you want one bad enoug to post a rant thread you'll be willing to pay the tooling and setup costs

#11 84 days ago
Quoted from Mitch:

Not many people will restore worn playfields anymore. And it they do it's very very expensive or a shitty job.

I’ve been told by numerous people that Keith Holbrook does good work. I’m sending him a playfield today. His quoted price was more than affordable.

#12 84 days ago
Quoted from Rdoyle1978:

Not this again... that sucks - I'm sure you were wanting one pretty badly.
email them to ask if they'll do a direct print one-off. If you want one bad enoug to post a rant thread you'll be willing to pay the tooling and setup costs

That run was the last ever of a silkscreened PF for Playboy. Will only be available in the future digitally.

#13 84 days ago

I agree that CPR needs to sort out the pre-order model. They take years to bring preorder playfields out then get upset when you don’t buy the playfield because you’ve sold it or lost interest.

#14 84 days ago

place an ad on here. I'm sure someone has an extra.

#15 84 days ago
Quoted from Rdoyle1978:

Not this again...

This will continue to be brought to light until all 50,000+ pinsiders are fully aware. Just because you saw it means squat. Get used to seeing the reference.

#16 84 days ago
Quoted from ryanbrooks:

I’ve been told by numerous people that Keith Holbrook does good work. I’m sending him a playfield today. His quoted price was more than affordable.

Let us know how it works out. I used to use HSA, but he closed shop. Ron Kruzman does an awesome clear, but i don’t think he does PF restorations anymore.

#17 84 days ago
Quoted from tomdrum:

I emailed them last night asking where I was on the PF list. Kevin's response:
Unfortunately, we never got along as far as your list position on this
one. They sold out, down to (5) pretty bad Bronzes, as of 4 weeks ago.
We stopped emailing the list back then. The bronzes sold out on the web
site, eventually. We literally have none.
Awesome. So they will sell all the silver and bronze grade to the general public and ignore the folks who committed and waited on the preorder list.

This is a bad deal.... so basically the way I read that ("we never got along as far as your list position goes") is that, they basically did not make enough PF's to cover all the people on the pre-order list??? Sounds like they barely made more than the pre-order list, had more bad PF's than they expected & never even bothered to offer the guys at the end of the Preorder list a Silver or Bronze, just let them go without anything... not even an apology from what it appears, just a basic statement on what happened.

I don't get it... this is one of the highest produced classic pinball titles of ALL TIME... 18,250.....(not to mention one that almost always has a beat PF due to the layout) why short yourself on this run? They knew these were insanely popular, based on fact they did this almost unheard of second production run? Why would you not run a fairly large selection of extras? The "pretty bad bronze" ones seemed to sell out very quickly....

If you can't cover all of your pre-orders, you really should re-think your production/pre order system.

I've had varying success myself with CPR products.... I'm very glad that they do what they do & appreciate that they are in business, but they definitely are not perfect by any means. I have a CPR Nitro Ground Shaker BG that has completely separated & spiderwebbed after less than 1 year from purchase.... not to mention the art & colors were no where near the original....I chalked it up to a learning experience & let it go. Last set of plastics I received from their new process, had some missing art that had flaked off the back due to the new thinner release paper they are using now releasing during transport & damaging the art... but I'm thankful enough that I was even able to get the stuff that I sit back, let it go & will order more in future, just because I don't have any other option for certain stuff unfortunately.

Just a bad deal on the Playboy Pre-orders, not being able to even fulfill all the pre-orders, just a bit baffling to me, but again, I'm not in the pinball parts manufacturing business.

#18 84 days ago
Quoted from WeatherbyMAG:

Just a bad deal on the Playboy Pre-orders, not being able to even fulfill all the pre-orders, just a bit baffling to me, but again, I'm not in the pinball parts manufacturing business.

The same thing happened with Xenon last year.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/beware-cpr-preorder-lists-

This kind of thing seems to be standard fare any more for CPR. They flat out tell people not to expect timely replies from them when you do contact them. But they always seem to expect your money in a timely manner if you are lucky enough to get a preordered playfield. Its a shame, but they are able to conduct their business like this because they are one of the only games in town. Maybe this is an opportunity for a new company to come in and scoop some of their business away by offering a better service model.

#19 84 days ago

Plus the fact that Kevin is an @$s. Full of excuses and never wrong.

24
#20 84 days ago

I'm going to chime in, of course. Might as well make sure our side of the story is counterpoint in this thread.

"CPR PLAYFIELD PREORDERS ARE MEANINGLESS"

In context of the recent Playboy re-run, yes, it may seem this way. But 95% of the time, this is not the case. A complete sellout *within* the preorder list HAS happened before - last year during the shipping of the Xenon re-run. But beyond this case, and that case, our 15 years of using our preorder/list model has worked out fine (for customers). For us, that is another story. Which I will get into below.

First let's get to the crux of the preorder model: From the beginning, it was always a way of collecting counts and statistics. Not only with the goal to set up lists of those raising their hands as potential buyers to make copies for, but also to show actual hard numbers when it came to demand. This allowed for ranking playfield runs to prioritise, and those to back-burner (or avoid completely).

For years, our threshold was 100 people (to consider actual production of a playfield run). Sometimes it took 2-3 years to get 100+ people. Sometimes after 2-3 years, only a dozen people have raised their hand for a certain playfield. It varies - heavily. People always wonder why waits were this long, or some haven't been done at all yet... This is why. Some titles just have little real-life demand. Way less than most think.

Regardless of all this, things changed ~5 years ago with how *customers* treated signing up on the lists:

For our first 10 years, it was simple and ran very slick: Just to use simple numbers, we'll go with 100 people... If we got 100 people, we ran "110" playfields (meaning not just what was wanted, but even slightly more, for spoilage, and a little extra stock at the end). There would be a few no-shows, yes. But not many. "95" on the preorder and standby lists would buy, leaving us with ~15 in stock for afterward. Those ~15 would sell off the web site, over the course of months to a year. It worked like clockwork.

But starting 5 years ago, things changed. Run after run, we were getting burnt. Those 110 playfields for 100 people - only around "60" on the preorder and standby lists would buy. We were looking at 40%+ no-shows. Leaving us with essentially half the run abandoned. Of course, our only recourse was putting the rest on our web site... but a new era of sitting on playfields began. Not just a dozen or so, that sold in months to a year... but where we're still sitting on some runs today. Overstock that is still around 5 years later. Now multiply that 40-50 playfields, times 10-20 runs... and after a couple years we realised we're sitting on 500 unsold playfields. Something had to change. The model had shit the bed.

"CUSTOMER PLAYFIELD PREORDERS ARE MEANINGLESS"

From our end - that became how WE felt. It was great to see 100+ people eventually build up an inbox of allegedly buying customers... but now, run after run, those numbers were now suspect. We couldn't trust them. So we decided to concede to lowering our minimum run numbers. To change with the times. We had to.

That meant taking a risk. Looking at 100 people - and running 60-70 playfields. It was a gamble. Think about that for a second. Pre-reducing the numbers.
It's only going to turn out one of two ways - A) the no-shows trend continues, and you'll end up properly fit (like 10 years prior) to the actual sales, and it works out B) Closer to 100 people *actually* come through - and you end up with not enough playfields for everybody.

Here is how it's worked out, since we started doing the production numbers this way -

On all playfield runs starting about 3 years ago (when we started actively pre-lowering the production count), Outcome A was the norm. It *actually worked* and we stopped getting burnt with significant abandoned overstock. BUT there were two exceptions - Outcome B happened on the Xenon re-run last year, and the Playboy re-run last month.

Moral of the story - sometimes it goes the other way. Rarely, but it does. This was one of those times. And it sucks. And I feel bad for those who missed out. Including the OP, who wrote me yesterday. It really does stink.

The silver lining to this (although maybe not good enough for some) is that unlike before, where once a run is done it's done - Playboy and ALL our legacy playfields will be eventually available under the "one-off made-to-order" model. Then they will sit "In Stock" taking orders, in perpituity, until the day CPR closes.

So some will say - "yeah, but those aren't silkscreened" To which I say - well no... but Mirco's aren't either. Yet I see people very pleased in stating how nice and allegedly flawless those are, in this very thread. So great - think of a CPR playfield made with the same "one quality, flawless print" model. That should be a good thing. It won't even fall under the Gold-Silver-Bronze grading. There will be no grading. Just a flawless digital playfield. That is the destiny of all our playfield titles, under the coming model. We don't see that as a bad thing.

We understand the silkscreen difference - we get it - which is why we persist on this "all-in" model of building a list of people, preparing a count for a run, and putting a large number of playfields together at once. Because you only silkscreen once. It's the bottleneck of a run. With digital, you can make handfuls at a time, at anytime - like Mirco. Like we will be doing on our legacy titles. Like Playboy from this point forward. Because I know I can't build another list of 70-100 people for a justified Playboy silkscreen run. Maybe, but I bet it would take 4-5 years, starting today. Do people want to wait that long? Waiting for production has been our biggest playfield complaint. It's an on-demand economy now. Our hobby is not immune. Which was a large part of the reason we had to consider expanding in the digital direction.

Anyway, this is already TL:DR. But I just wanted to make sure some counterpoint was put into this thread. Don't think for a second it doesn't pain me deeply when a run goes the "other way" (Outcome B). In fact, there were so many people leftover on the Xenon preorder (unserved) that it warranted a RE-re-run, which is coming out shortly. That was a huge preorder to begin with. We make good whenever we can. Unfortunately for Playboy, there were only a couple dozen unserved at the end. Easily handled under the "one-off made for you" model later, if they are still interested at all.

KEVIN
Classic Playfield Reproductions
http://www.classicplayfields.com

15
#21 84 days ago
Quoted from KevinCPR:

I'm going to chime in, of course. Might as well make sure our side of the story is counterpoint in this thread.
"CPR PLAYFIELD PREORDERS ARE MEANINGLESS"
In context of the recent Playboy re-run, yes, it may seem this way. But 95% of the time, this is not the case. A complete sellout *within* the preorder list HAS happened before - last year during the shipping of the Xenon re-run. But beyond this case, and that case, our 15 years of using our preorder/list model has worked out fine (for customers). For us, that is another story. Which I will get into below.
First let's get to the crux of the preorder model: From the beginning, it was always a way of collecting counts and statistics. Not only with the goal to set up lists of those raising their hands as potential buyers to make copies for, but also to show actual hard numbers when it came to demand. This allowed for ranking playfield runs to prioritise, and those to back-burner (or avoid completely).
For years, our threshold was 100 people (to consider actual production of a playfield run). Sometimes it took 2-3 years to get 100+ people. Sometimes after 2-3 years, only a dozen people have raised their hand for a certain playfield. It varies - heavily. People always wonder why waits were this long, or some haven't been done at all yet... This is why. Some titles just have little real-life demand. Way less than most think.
Regardless of all this, things changed ~5 years ago with how *customers* treated signing up on the lists:
For our first 10 years, it was simple and ran very slick: Just to use simple numbers, we'll go with 100 people... If we got 100 people, we ran "110" playfields (meaning not just what was wanted, but even slightly more, for spoilage, and a little extra stock at the end). There would be a few no-shows, yes. But not many. "95" on the preorder and standby lists would buy, leaving us with ~15 in stock for afterward. Those ~15 would sell off the web site, over the course of months to a year. It worked like clockwork.
But starting 5 years ago, things changed. Run after run, we were getting burnt. Those 110 playfields for 100 people - only around "60" on the preorder and standby lists would buy. We were looking at 40%+ no-shows. Leaving us with essentially half the run abandoned. Of course, our only recourse was putting the rest on our web site... but a new era of sitting on playfields began. Not just a dozen or so, that sold in months to a year... but where we're still sitting on some runs today. Overstock that is still around 5 years later. Now multiply that 40-50 playfields, times 10-20 runs... and after a couple years we realised we're sitting on 500 unsold playfields. Something had to change. The model had shit the bed.
"CUSTOMER PLAYFIELD PREORDERS ARE MEANINGLESS"
From our end - that became how WE felt. It was great to see 100+ people eventually build up an inbox of allegedly buying customers... but now, run after run, those numbers were now suspect. We couldn't trust them. So we decided to concede to lowering our minimum run numbers. To change with the times. We had to.
That meant taking a risk. Looking at 100 people - and running 60-70 playfields. It was a gamble. Think about that for a second. Pre-reducing the numbers.
It's only going to turn out one of two ways - A) the no-shows trend continues, and you'll end up properly fit (like 10 years prior) to the actual sales, and it works out B) Closer to 100 people *actually* come through - and you end up with not enough playfields for everybody.
Here is how it's worked out, since we started doing the production numbers this way -
On all playfield runs starting about 3 years ago (when we started actively pre-lowering the production count), Outcome A was the norm. It *actually worked* and we stopped getting burnt with significant abandoned overstock. BUT there were two exceptions - Outcome B happened on the Xenon re-run last year, and the Playboy re-run last month.
Moral of the story - sometimes it goes the other way. Rarely, but it does. This was one of those times. And it sucks. And I feel bad for those who missed out. Including the OP, who wrote me yesterday. It really does stink.
The silver lining to this (although maybe not good enough for some) is that unlike before, where once a run is done it's done - Playboy and ALL our legacy playfields will be eventually available under the "one-off made-to-order" model. Then they will sit "In Stock" taking orders, in perpituity, until the day CPR closes.
So some will say - "yeah, but those aren't silkscreened" To which I say - well no... but Mirco's aren't either. Yet I see people very pleased in stating how nice and allegedly flawless those are, in this very thread. So great - think of a CPR playfield made with the same "one quality, flawless print" model. That should be a good thing. It won't even fall under the Gold-Silver-Bronze grading. There will be no grading. Just a flawless digital playfield. That is the destiny of all our playfield titles, under the coming model. We don't see that as a bad thing.
We understand the silkscreen difference - we get it - which is why we persist on this "all-in" model of building a list of people, preparing a count for a run, and putting a large number of playfields together at once. Because you only silkscreen once. It's the bottleneck of a run. With digital, you can make handfuls at a time, at anytime - like Mirco. Like we will be doing on our legacy titles. Like Playboy from this point forward. Because I know I can't build another list of 70-100 people for a justified Playboy silkscreen run. Maybe, but I bet it would take 4-5 years, starting today. Do people want to wait that long? Waiting for production has been our biggest playfield complaint. It's an on-demand economy now. Our hobby is not immune. Which was a large part of the reason we had to consider expanding in the digital direction.
Anyway, this is already TL:DR. But I just wanted to make sure some counterpoint was put into this thread. Don't think for a second it doesn't pain me deeply when a run goes the "other way" (Outcome B). In fact, there were so many people leftover on the Xenon preorder (unserved) that it warranted a RE-re-run, which is coming out shortly. That was a huge preorder to begin with. We make good whenever we can. Unfortunately for Playboy, there were only a couple dozen unserved at the end. Easily handled under the "one-off made for you" model later, if they are still interested at all.
KEVIN
Classic Playfield Reproductions
http://www.classicplayfields.com

This still doesn't explain why silver and bronze grades were available for purchase on your website before all the preorders were filled.

#22 84 days ago

Why not get a commitment from vendors who sell your products to purchase the leftovers prior to your run, so your not stuck with stock on the shelf?

-9
#23 84 days ago
Quoted from tomdrum:

This still doesn't explain why silver and bronze grades were available for purchase on your website before all the preorders were filled.

I'm assuming that if you were offered a bronze or silver playfield your post would be about how you didn't get offered a gold...

#24 84 days ago
Quoted from davidlldennis:

I'm assuming that if you were offered a bronze or silver playfield your post would be about how you didn't get offered a gold...

At least I'd been offered something. I passed on a used PF needing just minor touch-ups at York last fall because I was on the preorder list.

#25 84 days ago

Why not require preorder list people to pay a non-refundable 25% deposit once you cross the threshold of 100 verbal preorders? If you target to make 80, and have a few back out...you are still really close to having the required number of playfields to justify the run. People are going to be a lot more willing to pay for the rest of the playfield balance when it is ready to ship if they have a couple hundred bucks in it already. Seems to be working swell for Spooky...

#26 84 days ago
Quoted from JodyG:

Why not require preorder list people to pay a non-refundable 25% deposit once you cross the threshold of 100 verbal preorders? If you target to make 80, and have a few back out...you are still really close to having the required number of playfields to justify the run. People are going to be a lot more willing to pay for the rest of the playfield balance when it is ready to ship if they have a couple hundred bucks in it already. Seems to be working swell for Spooky...

25% if its guaranteed within 6-9 months sure, the problem is it was taking them years and years to get a playfield out. Then they get pissy when people changed their mind after 4-5 years lol

#27 84 days ago
Quoted from herbertbsharp:

25% if its guaranteed within 6-9 months sure, the problem is it was taking them years and years to get a playfield out. Then they get pissy when people changed their mind after 4-5 years lol

Very true....I was thinking with the assumption that once they hit 100, production starting would be imminent. Although, some people have had $1000 deposits on ACNC for what, a year now? and the walls aren't coming down yet.

#28 84 days ago
Quoted from tomdrum:

This still doesn't explain why silver and bronze grades were available for purchase on your website before all the preorders were filled.

The whole run was on our web site (Golds too, at the beginning). That is the exact link where the Instructions Email directed people to go. With our new Cart & Checkout system, all buying was facilitated using our web site.

One might ask - 'but didn't random people from the public just buy them off the web site?'

No. No, they didn't. And even if they did, we would cancel their order.

Since our new web site last year, all playfield rollouts have been done this way. Gone are the days of the Instructions Email directing you to take out a calculator and add up an order, making a manual PayPal payment. For the last 6-7 runs, the Instructions Email directs you to a functional page at the site - an actual working Store page - where you can make up your playfield shipment (even throwing in other items from across the site) and Checkout.

In doing the waves of emails each week, we can see correspondingly who was placing the orders. All neat and tidy, in orderly fashion, as they were coming out of clearcoat, and being packed and shipped daily.

We stopped emailing the preorder list when it got down to (5) pretty awful Bronzes. We had reached "Outcome B" as I described above. It's already a ran-out situation, no need to rub discounted bronzes in the faces of those at the end of the list. It's already a let-down. Not when more playfields can eventually be made later under the one-off model.

13
#29 84 days ago
Quoted from KevinCPR:

The whole run was on our web site (Golds too, at the beginning). That is the exact link where the Instructions Email directed people to go. With our new Cart & Checkout system, all buying was facilitated using our web site.
One might ask - 'but didn't random people from the public just buy them off the web site?'
No. No, they didn't. And even if they did, we would cancel their order.
Since our new web site last year, all playfield rollouts have been done this way. Gone are the days of the Instructions Email directing you to take out a calculator and add up an order, making a manual PayPal payment. For the last 6-7 runs, the Instructions Email directs you to a functional page at the site - an actual working Store page - where you can make up your playfield shipment (even throwing in other items from across the site) and Checkout.
In doing the waves of emails each week, we can see correspondingly who was placing the orders. All neat and tidy, in orderly fashion, as they were coming out of clearcoat, and being packed and shipped daily.
We stopped emailing the preorder list when it got down to (5) pretty awful Bronzes. We had reached "Outcome B" as I described above. It's already a ran-out situation, no need to rub discounted bronzes in the faces of those at the end of the list. It's already a let-down. Not when more playfields can eventually be made later under the one-off model.

Perhaps when "Outcome B" occurs an email should be sent to those people on the preorder list that won't be getting PF's.

"We thank you for placing a preorder for our product, but we're sorry that we will be unable to provide a playfield at this time."

#30 84 days ago
Quoted from JodyG:

Why not require preorder list people to pay a non-refundable 25% deposit once you cross the threshold of 100 verbal preorders? Seems to be working swell for Spooky...

Because Spooky doesn't have 500-800 physical playfields in motion, across 6-10 runs.

Managing that many deposits would be a nightmare. Nor does PayPal "really" allow monetary collection without shipped product (a tracking number) somewhat shortly afterwards. We looked into it. It's kinda against their rules. It could work short-term, but playfields aren't made short-term.

Numbers are set at the CNC machine, the very beginning. When blank gameboard panels become 'whitewoods'. That can be 4-5 months until that pile of 60, 100, 150, 250 come out of clearcoat and begin shipping. We have on average 7 playfields in motion at all times, in different stages. The one we are shipping was usually CNC cut 4-5 months ago. It's merely the title that reached the clearcoat stage. But there are piles right behind it. Some are being screened. Some are being dimpled and drilled. Some are being coated and sealed. Some are being greyed on the backs. Some are being levelled. Some are being inserts installed. Some are being CNC cut. There are runs in every bucket. But their number in each bucket is fixed in the first bucket, CNC cutting.

For deposits to work, we'd have to collect them before CNC cutting - to get that "real and final" number. That would be a great number to have. Yes, it would solve all count problems. But we'd be sitting on a rotating hundreds of thousands of dollars, for 4-5 months, for all these ongoing piles in motion. Not only is that a no-no in PayPal, but very uncomfortable to be holding peoples' money like that - and things can change on a dime. That's hundreds of people now in control of us on a clock - with monetary teeth in the game. What if we needed to move a run, temporarily halt a run awaiting an insert or something, or leapfrog a run over another? We currently have that freedom, as we are not obligated to anybody. Just as currently, nobody is obligated to come through in the end.

I guess it's been best to have the freedom in both directions. No obligation for us OR customer. It allows for things and moves to happen internally (which happen all the time) without anybody being delayed or harmed. But it's negative is indeed the risk of sometimes not having enough playfields.

Which isn't even the case now, really. It's not over for Playboy (or any legacy CPR playfield eventually). They will be order-able, on-demand, by anybody, in perpetuity, once we get them all up on the new model. So none of this will be a topic, soon enough. There will be no "sold out, I went without" problems.

19
#31 84 days ago
Quoted from tomdrum:

Perhaps when "Outcome B" occurs an email should be sent to those people on the preorder list that won't be getting PF's.
"We thank you for placing a preorder for our product, but we're sorry that we will be unable to provide a playfield at this time."

EXCELLENT POINT.

Yes, a small duty of care like this could and should have been done. I realize you are miffed, and possibly such a mailout would have gone a long way.

I agree with you.

If there is another "Outcome B" next time, I promise to make this improvement.

#32 84 days ago

If Paypal policies are a concern with accepting deposits (deposits are the best way to handle this situation of pre-ordering IMO) then use someone besides Paypal, there are numerous other choices out there....

-16
#33 84 days ago

Wtf is wrong with you people? I got 3 downvotes just for mentioning micro playfields as an alternative? Is this your idea of a free market?
There are real j€rks in here after all...

13
#34 84 days ago
Quoted from provato:

Wtf is wrong with you people? I got 3 downvotes just for mentioning micro playfields as an alternative? Is this your idea of a free market?
There are real j€rks in here after all...

While I didn't down vote you, please be aware that Mirco pulled a stunt recently trying to undermine another small playfield remanufacturer that was EXTREMELY shady and got called out onto the carpet on it here on Pinside. A lot of people here are rightfully pissed at Mirco for that stunt. Free market is fine and good, what Mirco did was NOT that!!!!

#35 84 days ago
Quoted from herbertbsharp:

the problem is it was taking them years and years to get a playfield out.

More precisely, it's been taking the hobby years and years to achieve ~100 people. Some just don't make it, and have been continually back-burnered.

I just want to be clear - It doesn't take years to actually MAKE a playfield run. It sometimes takes years to *finally commit put a playfield into actual production* - the key being, once reasonable numbers are achieved.

I realize is "feels" like it takes years, like we're dragging our heels or are slow or something. No. When some think "damn, it's been 4 years CPR has been taking preorders, and it's STILL not made yet... they are SO SLOW" ... it's not that it takes 4 years to make a playfield It's that the playfield has "42" preorders, and has proven itself to be lower demand than others. The ones we are making are the runs of 60 (minimum) to 100+. I assure everybody, we've never stopped building playfields, every day, for 15 years. The ones "taking long" haven't even had one board cut yet. Because they hadn't shown their numbers yet.

Thankfully, the old model tied to silkscreening, that held back going forward on dozens of titles we are sitting on, is going to be solved by the new "one-off" process. That means all those "Boutique" titles we tested on our site for years (some of which have a paltry 7 preorders - not kidding), WILL get made. Those "7" people will get served someday. Along with all the others.

Plus now we can get into all the sub-50 Preorder lists that were stalled all these years, as well.

#36 84 days ago
Quoted from provato:

There are real j€rks in here after all...

It's not about you as much as it's about Micro.

-10
#37 84 days ago
Quoted from AUKraut:

While I didn't down vote you, please be aware that Mirco pulled a stunt recently trying to undermine another small playfield remanufacturer that was EXTREMELY shady and got called out onto the carpet on it here on Pinside. A lot of people here are rightfully pissed at Mirco for that stunt.

So what? I am a customer and had nothing to do with this incident and they still sold me an excellent playfield and I know that They have some playfields not shown in their webpage.

I will think twice before helping anyone in here again... everyone is a critic nowadays

#38 84 days ago
Quoted from KevinCPR:

More precisely, it's been taking the hobby years and years to achieve ~100 people. Some just don't make it, and have been continually back-burnered.
I just want to be clear - It doesn't take years to actually MAKE a playfield run. It sometimes takes years to *finally commit put a playfield into actual production* - the key being, once reasonable numbers are achieved.
I realize is "feels" like it takes years, like we're dragging our heels or are slow or something. No. When some think "damn, it's been 4 years CPR has been taking preorders, and it's STILL not made yet... they are SO SLOW" ... it's not that it takes 4 years to make a playfield It's that the playfield has "42" preorders, and has proven itself to be lower demand than others. The ones we are making are the runs of 60 (minimum) to 100+. I assure everybody, we've never stopped building playfields, every day, for 15 years. The ones "taking long" haven't even had one board cut yet. Because they hadn't shown their numbers yet.
Thankfully, the old model tied to silkscreening, that held back going forward on dozens of titles we are sitting on, is going to be solved by the new "one-off" process. That means all those "Boutique" titles we tested on our site for years (some of which have a paltry 7 preorders - not kidding), WILL get made. Those "7" people will get served someday. Along with all the others.
Plus now we can get into all the sub-50 Preorder lists that were stalled all these years, as well.

So when will this new one-off system come online? Asking for a friend

#39 84 days ago

You should definitely have a disclaimer on pre-orders that their pre-order is for interest purposes only and does not guarantee you will receive a playfield.

Managing expectations and sending out an email to notify people that they will not receive a product would go a long way.

#40 84 days ago
Quoted from provato:

So what? I am a customer and had nothing to do with this incident and they still sold me an excellent playfield and I know that They have some playfields not shown in their webpage.
I will think twice before helping anyone in here again... everyone is a critic nowadays

Mirco basically threatened legal action against a pinsider making playfields, claiming that he (mirco) had all legal rights to make those playfields, when in fact, he had none. Not cool in most people's books and rubbed lots of people the wrong way. Not a great way to support a small community.

#41 84 days ago
Quoted from provato:

So what? I am a customer and had nothing to do with this incident and they still sold me an excellent playfield and I know that They have some playfields not shown in their webpage.
I will think twice before helping anyone in here again... everyone is a critic nowadays

It's your choice who you choose to do business with, but don't expect a warm reception when showing support to someone who is obviously lacking in ethical behaviour. Just remember if you lie down with dogs you'll get up with fleas......

13
#42 84 days ago

The situation still
Sucks but it does seem pretty right on that Kev is posting right in here, apologising and empathising AND explaining their entire business model. I can count on one hand other companies who do that.

#43 83 days ago
Quoted from provato:

So what? I am a customer and had nothing to do with this incident and they still sold me an excellent playfield and I know that They have some playfields not shown in their webpage.
I will think twice before helping anyone in here again... everyone is a critic nowadays

Disable the voting and you won't even think about it again.

#44 83 days ago

I think you guys need to get a manufacturing consultant if you havn't already. Based on what I'm seeing I dont feel that you've done this or the consultation outcomes weren't realized. IMO Its critical to your business model that you use a deposit preorder system tied to a modifiable user account. besides the obvious reasons it could enable a buyer to give sell his preorder spot to the person that buys their pinball machine. You would reduce the amount of abandoned orders. Maybe not for your future version of the business where you move away from screen printing but certainly now. Paypal is not the be all end all way to recieve deposits. You could use square and shopify to create whatever structure you need.

#45 83 days ago
Quoted from WW2GURU:

I think you guys need to get a manufacturing consultant if you havn't already. Based on what I'm seeing I dont feel that you've done this or the consultation outcomes weren't realized. IMO Its critical to your business model that you use a deposit preorder system tied to a modifiable user account. besides the obvious reasons it could enable a buyer to give sell his preorder spot to the person that buys their pinball machine. You would reduce the amount of abandoned orders. Maybe not for your future version of the business where you move away from screen printing but certainly now. Paypal is not the be all end all way to recieve deposits. You could use square and shopify to create whatever structure you need.

That's all too complicated, too much to manage, and there's too much liability with long-term preorders. See Kevin's explanation above.

Preorders only really work in the short-term; say, 1-3 months. Beyond that, people start getting upset/impatient.

#46 83 days ago
Quoted from ForceFlow:

That's all too complicated, too much to manage, and there's too much liability with long-term preorders. See Kevin's explanation above.
Preorders only really work in the short-term; say, 1-3 months. Beyond that, people start getting upset/impatient.

In general, I dont agree with any of that. Its not complicated if you know what to do or hire someone set it up for you that knows what to do. Liability is a non issue where an agreement and disclaimer is signed before the order is made. People waited up to 2 years to get the 2015 Hellcats after leaving deposits. I followed that whole scenario very closely and even then the people that got upset near the end were small in number. I find parts of, not all of his explanation more of a rationalization where other parts show where important lessons were learned and applied. Sorry but this company needs some serious outside professional advice.

#47 83 days ago
Quoted from ForceFlow:

That's all too complicated, too much to manage, and there's too much liability with long-term preorders. See Kevin's explanation above.
Preorders only really work in the short-term; say, 1-3 months. Beyond that, people start getting upset/impatient.

I would charge people for the playfield when the run is actively ready to ramp up. From that point there should be only a 3-4 month wait to finished playfields, and people have paid for it. You could easily get around Paypal's requirements by shipping a "collectible" CPR key fob for the price of the playfield that comes with a playfield later. That way you turn the 1-2 year wishlist into the actual people that are still in the hunt and know EXACTLY what your paid demand is.

#48 83 days ago

Is the digital Printer situation up and running yet ? That sounded like it was going to be awesome

#49 83 days ago

You should just buy the worst condition playfield they make since even gold ones will need to be sent to Kruzman to fix all the mistakes and to do the clear on it. Your wasting your time and money waiting on the gold.

John

#50 83 days ago
Quoted from provato:

Wtf is wrong with you people? I got 3 downvotes just for mentioning micro playfields as an alternative? Is this your idea of a free market?
There are real j€rks in here after all...

Lol, Time out there Negative Nancy! Looks like somebody just earned themselves another down vote.

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