CPR playfield preorders are meaningless

(Topic ID: 237367)

CPR playfield preorders are meaningless


By tomdrum

19 days ago



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#201 13 days ago
Quoted from paul_8788:

Thickness (height of the layer) does not equate to hardness (ability to resist dimples). A 1 inch layer of pudding on top of a playfield isn't going to make it resist dimpling. If CPR is using a higher hardness, more dense veneer than Stern playfields, then maybe, but from my reading CPR is saying they use the same wood veneer as Stern. It is thicker (for sanding reasons). Unless the ball is putting dimples right through the veneer I don't see how thick the layer is relevant. You are playing on the surface.

Now we are getting to the question I would like CPR to answer.

CPR why do you use thicker veneer- purely for sanding or what are your other reasons? (Don’t need to point at other manufacturers here). Did you also go with thicker veneer so it would be harder - and resist dimples? Or mainly for sanding?

#202 13 days ago
Quoted from vireland:

That still doesn't explain their professional, experienced comment IN THE PLAYFIELD MANUFACTURE BUSINESS that they seek and get the "densest, hardest" playfields, and their face veneer is thicker than Sterns to achieve that, "Marvin".

You need to read what's actually written, not what you want it to say "vireland"

#203 13 days ago
Quoted from cpr9999:

Now we are getting to the question I would like CPR to answer.
CPR why do you use thicker veneer- purely for sanding or what are your other reasons? (Don’t need to point at other manufacturers here). Did you also go with thicker veneer so it would be harder - and resist dimples? Or mainly for sanding?

Sanding and less chance of rejects since they can fix some issue with the extra thickness

#204 13 days ago

So many experts....you all have no idea.

#205 12 days ago

I have to use what is available in small quantities. Lucky for me that our local big university orders good both sides hard maple veneer (thin) in 3/4 inch & last year started ordering 1/2 inch sheets of 4 x 8 feet. I get a fair break point at 10 sheets, & get it delivered for $60 to the sign shop with a cnc. So I am extremely lucky that my local custom wood supplier stocks it (usually has 50 sheets on hand). http://robertbury.com/ Trying to find any source for quality hard maple veneer plywood is a nightmare in USA/Canada. Almost all mills do not want to make it! The core is Baltic birch that I use. For hand sanding I try my best not to burn through the veneer by hand sanding. All inserts & sanding done myself, along with varethane waterbourne gloss for sealing the playfields before uv inkjet production on a flat bed commercial OCE printer with a dedicated tech (all he does with 2 every week for years).

The big playfield guys can order in quantity & do. They have the money tied up in huge inventory of custom plywood playfield blanks or sheets waiting on cutting over months. Plywood is a natural product that as soon as it leaves the mill it will want to warp or rack. Trees are not flat, round in shape & hard maple veneer is removed in layers. As for the inserts most made in the USA have id letters from each mold or extruder on top. I do have some with no id on top. Foremost Plastics, & Northern Precision Plastics are the 2 known source. I purchase my small numbers mostly from Marco Specialties & Pinball Life, & test stuff from Pinball Resource many years back. Do not know if any lenses are supplied by Mirco, but if they are I would still use them if they are the same quality (height & size). It is a very small core of individuals making classic playfields, compared to the huge volume of CPR playfields done over the years. Mirco is now in it with his robots, so another big player to join in the chain. Just hope the battle does not destroy either big players in the classic pinball playfield arena. With out the mass production (hundred+ of a title) from CPR over the years a lot of games would be ugly! Only have a overlay as a choice, or maybe a hardtop in the future. I personally know the crap from Mirco, & what this guy can try to get away with lying! His half ass apology! But this guy can likely take a scorched earth policy towards others making playfields in small or big numbers.
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/mirco-exclusive-classic-stern-parts-manufacturer

#206 12 days ago
Quoted from CPR:

I only came here at all yesterday when Stu forwarded this topic

I miss that prickly dude.

#207 12 days ago
Quoted from vireland:

Dunno. The green on Munsters in Herman mode works, and the Metallica GI change is nice, too. So colored GI isn't ALWAYS bad, just when it's done in an amateurish way (usually the homebrew carnival puke examples).

color changing for a mode is one thing. It's temporary and ment to screw with you so you can't see for crap. Like in Space Station or Atlantis. It does that on purpose because the designers know you can't see shit if you have colored GI's. People that put color where white is suppose to be do not understand that.

#208 12 days ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

color changing for a mode is one thing. It's temporary and ment to screw with you so you can't see for crap. Like in Space Station or Atlantis. It does that on purpose because the designers know you can't see shit if you have colored GI's. People that put color where white is suppose to be do not understand that.

Neo, just get some glasses would you...

#209 12 days ago
Quoted from kvan99:

Neo, just get some glasses would you...

Make them PDI glasses and Neo's in for sure.

#210 12 days ago
Quoted from cpr9999:

Now we are getting to the question I would like CPR to answer.
CPR why do you use thicker veneer- purely for sanding or what are your other reasons? (Don’t need to point at other manufacturers here). Did you also go with thicker veneer so it would be harder - and resist dimples? Or mainly for sanding?

It's both.

Just better for levelling during the drum standing stages - with lots of good "meat" left over to leave a nice decent-thickness top veneer. (rather than a paper-thin one)

As for hardness and dimpling resistance - there is more than top layer that determines that. It's the layer underneath, getting into the cores, that we thought about as well. A harder top ply or harder "face" ply (the 'veneer') specifically won't be able to do squat IF the layer(s) underneath are softer...

Thus, for I believe the first time in gameboard wood, we had the mill use ASH cores instead of the typical 'cheaper' cores they historically like to use. The mills almost always consider certain core layers (every second ply) to be "filler" so they're great for lowering the cost of a plywood. You can always identify the 'cheaper' plys/cores by their color. They are some version of chocolate or dark brown in color. Usually sweet gum, black gum, or similar.

This can be seen on a playfield by looking at the edge (see alternating plys/cores) or in the shooter lane (where you'll see those "chocolate swirl" patterns). Ash, as with hard rock maple, are both golden/yellow grained type woods... so that is why CPR gameboard panels are the same color all the way through. Our shooter lanes are all the same color, down thru the plys.

Ash is way harder/heavier than the typical 'brown' woods used in standard cores, thus giving that harder foundation below the face veneer. A CPR playfield is also typically 1/3 heavier than any other playfield of equivalent size, out there in the hobby today. Factory or repro. It's because of our custom cores recipe.

Does it help against dimpling? Scientifically, one could say absolutely yes it 'should' - some. A hardrock maple top layer, with a genuine ash ply immediately underneath, should be an impact-harder surface than a hardrock maple top layer with one of those typical "brown" filler plys underneath. Technically.

-1
#211 12 days ago
Quoted from Lamprey:

Disable the voting and you won't even think about it again.

Is that a thing? How did I miss that one? *goes to look for setting*

#212 12 days ago

Kevin,

You have been great at helping everyone understand why you have the best playfield!!! Cool.

One last question...from earlier post “We use the same basic setup as Stern, 3 layers of white ash cores then we use 4 layers of maritime hard maple BUT we increased the thickness of the two face veneers by 64% to get a nominal face thickness of 0.075". ”

So is the difference your top and bottom layer are thicker than Sterns (but still made out same wood)? And the core is identical to Sterns?

Do I understand this correctly?

-1
#213 12 days ago
Quoted from Frax:

Is that a thing? How did I miss that one? *goes to look for setting*

Yep. I wish they'd get rid of voting altogether as I think it stifles conversation, but c'est la vie...

#214 12 days ago
Quoted from cpr9999:

Kevin,
You have been great at helping everyone understand why you have the best playfield!!! Cool.
One last question...from earlier post “We use the same basic setup as Stern, 3 layers of white ash cores then we use 4 layers of maritime hard maple BUT we increased the thickness of the two face veneers by 64% to get a nominal face thickness of 0.075". ”
So is the difference your top and bottom layer are thicker than Sterns (but still made out same wood)? And the core is identical to Sterns?
Do I understand this correctly?

I don't think so, how would explain the 1/3 heavier weight then? The important take away is that not all the Maple plywoods pfs floating around are the same....the core differentiation may be a factor in what we've been seeing.

I'd like to repost this for posterity

"Does it help against dimpling? Scientifically, one could say absolutely yes it 'should' - some. A hardrock maple top layer, with a genuine ash ply immediately underneath, should be an impact-harder surface than a hardrock maple top layer with one of those typical "brown" filler plys underneath. Technically."

#215 12 days ago
Quoted from KevinCPR:

It's both.
Just better for levelling during the drum standing stages - with lots of good "meat" left over to leave a nice decent-thickness top veneer. (rather than a paper-thin one)
As for hardness and dimpling resistance - there is more than top layer that determines that. It's the layer underneath, getting into the cores, that we thought about as well. A harder top ply or harder "face" ply (the 'veneer') specifically won't be able to do squat IF the layer(s) underneath are softer...
Thus, for I believe the first time in gameboard wood, we had the mill use ASH cores instead of the typical 'cheaper' cores they historically like to use. The mills almost always consider certain core layers (every second ply) to be "filler" so they're great for lowering the cost of a plywood. You can always identify the 'cheaper' plys/cores by their color. They are some version of chocolate or dark brown in color. Usually sweet gum, black gum, or similar.
This can be seen on a playfield by looking at the edge (see alternating plys/cores) or in the shooter lane (where you'll see those "chocolate swirl" patterns). Ash, as with hard rock maple, are both golden/yellow grained type woods... so that is why CPR gameboard panels are the same color all the way through. Our shooter lanes are all the same color, down thru the plys.
Ash is way harder/heavier than the typical 'brown' woods used in standard cores, thus giving that harder foundation below the face veneer. A CPR playfield is also typically 1/3 heavier than any other playfield of equivalent size, out there in the hobby today. Factory or repro. It's because of our custom cores recipe.
Does it help against dimpling? Scientifically, one could say absolutely yes it 'should' - some. A hardrock maple top layer, with a genuine ash ply immediately underneath, should be an impact-harder surface than a hardrock maple top layer with one of those typical "brown" filler plys underneath. Technically.

I would be interested in knowing if you have studied a product called Richlite? Some of the guitar makers are starting to use it for fretboards. I don't know if it would work as a ply wood layer but for workably, its wood like qualities make it fun to work with. I don't know how much the stuff costs.

#216 12 days ago
Quoted from cpr9999:

So is the difference your top and bottom layer are thicker than Sterns (but still made out same wood)?

No. Mike's sentence is a bit of a salad. "basic setup" as Stern's ... which he meant 7-ply + faces (the setup, or format, of the plywood). But then he put a comma. Should have been a period. Then a new sentence "CPR uses...(cores)"

Nobody is using Ash cores that I know of. It easily doubles the cost of the recipe, that alone. Then we go for the thicker face. Then we do both faces instead of one. Then (Mike didn't mention this) we now only let them use ONE PIECE of veneer (top and bottom). It's no longer in multiple strips (which lets the mill avoid defects off the logs, and again, lets them cut costs). Look at most other playfield aprons out there... multiple vertical strips of veneer, 4-5 inches wide.

All this combined, thus we're at the ridiculous $12+ per square foot range... more than some marble floors. But we love this wood now.

#217 12 days ago
Quoted from KevinCPR:

No. Mike's sentence is a bit of a salad. "basic setup" as Stern's ... which he meant 7-ply + faces (the setup, or format, of the plywood). But then he put a comma. Should have been a period. Then a new sentence "CPR uses...(cores)"
Nobody is using Ash cores that I know of. It easily doubles the cost of the recipe, that alone. Then we go for the thicker face. Then we do both faces instead of one. Then (Mike didn't mention this) we now only let them use ONE PIECE of veneer (top and bottom). It's no longer in multiple strips (which lets the mill avoid defects off the logs, and again, lets them cut costs). Look at most other playfield aprons out there... multiple vertical strips of veneer, 4-5 inches wide.
All this combined, thus we're at the ridiculous $12+ per square foot range... more than some marble floors. But we love this wood now.

Top notch construction Pinsiders!

#218 12 days ago

vireland has gone quiet all of a sudden...

#219 12 days ago
Quoted from cottonm4:

I would be interested in knowing if you have studied a product called Richlite? Some of the guitar makers are starting to use it for fretboards. I don't know if it would work as a ply wood layer but for workably, its wood like qualities make it fun to work with. I don't know how much the stuff costs.

$550 for a 1/2"x4'x8' sheet

#220 11 days ago
Quoted from vid1900:

$550 for a 1/2"x4'x8' sheet

So it would be $17 per sf instead of $12 per sf.

#221 11 days ago
Quoted from vid1900:

$550 for a 1/2"x4'x8' sheet

It would have be in the form of a veneer and sandwiched with some light wood in between. A 4 x 8 x 1/2 would be heavy and make you glad you are moving plywood.. All it is, basically, is sheets of paper pressed under I don't how many pounds of pressure. It is water resistant somewhat, you can drill it, file it, saw it, bond it, doesn't warp, etc.

#222 11 days ago
Quoted from cottonm4:

It would have be in the form of a veneer and sandwiched with some light wood in between.

You can get Ritchlite in just about any configuration; it's just paper and resin.

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#223 11 days ago
Quoted from vid1900:

You can get Ritchlite in just about any configuration; it's just paper and resin.
[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]

That's good looking ply. I don't know how Richlite is on the hardness test and have no engineering idea at all of how it would pan out as play field surface material, or even pool table material, but I sure liked working with it to make form dies with. And it seems to be working for the guitar guys.

#224 10 days ago

I would say in the past 5% - 10% might have 2 veneers joined on the surface from my source. In my opinion of playfields from the past, 3 or 7 ply. They all seemed to warp & rack, & perform the same for wear.

#225 10 days ago

For those that don't know, formica type laminate products are basically the same thing resin and paper layers just with a hard plastic surface on top. Makes sense that it would machine easily since it's cellulose fiber based. Also, think about how hard and durable formica products are! I still have formica countertops in my kitchen that are original to the house from 1959 and are in decent shape!

#226 10 days ago
Quoted from stashyboy:

I still have formica countertops in my kitchen that are original to the house from 1959 and are in decent shape!

How many plays? Any dimpling?

#227 10 days ago
Quoted from stashyboy:

For those that don't know, formica type laminate products are basically the same thing resin and paper layers just with a hard plastic surface on top. Makes sense that it would machine easily since it's cellulose fiber based. Also, think about how hard and durable formica products are! I still have formica countertops in my kitchen that are original to the house from 1959 and are in decent shape!

Formica chips esy

#228 10 days ago
Quoted from Marvin:

Formica chips esy

Richlite is not Formica.

-2
#229 10 days ago
Quoted from cottonm4:

Richlite is not Formica.

No shit, but how is this relevant to the reply to Formica that was specifically quoted?

#230 9 days ago

I just wanted to add my 2 cents (or $5 Canadian).

I have done a few CPR swaps and generally I think their product is pretty good over all (once you get past the waiting), my only complaints has to do with the dimpling (missing or not located correctly). Just recently finished up a Skateball and had to drill probably 10% of the holes (well I do them all to prevent chipping) but some where missing. Some holes where there, but they where just covered with the layers of ink. These still could be found using the original PF as a reference and a strong light as I could see a very slight divot in the ink. One also has to be careful on the backside with any assemblies that pass through the PF (drop targets) as sometime the dimples can be off and if you install the unit following the holes it could be off enough that the targets/etc rub of the wood.

But these are things I have encountered before and have learned the hard way, but could be frustrating if it is your first time and are not aware of these things - but generally things usually go well out of the box.

As for overlays, I would not buy the ones I have seen that are being sold on eBay. Sure maybe better than nothing, but IMHO, it is lame (cheesy?) with the wood grain printed. I have done my own self made overlays in the past (Playboy for example as the PF, at the time, was not available yet) - but I only have the artwork printed and allow the original wood to show. Flash Gordon was another self-created overlay. Please note: these are not for sale as I don't own any rights and were done as a one off (sorry).

Also just a quick comment on Microplay PF - I have yet to see one so can not comment on the quality, but my opinion is the price. Wow, these are a lot more expensive than a screened CPR PF. I would be hard pressed to pay an extra US$400 on average. Now I don't know the reason, but will just leave it at that.

I think it is a good option for CPR to move to digital and for them to offer out of print PFs once again as an on "demand" service, as it will help those people that end up with a machine after a run has long sold out. Maybe not for the purists, but for those that just want to play their game without a blown out playfield, it is a great option.
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#231 9 days ago
Quoted from LongJohns:

Also just a quick comment on Microplay PF - I have yet to see one so can not comment on the quality, but my opinion is the price. Wow, these are a lot more expensive than a screened CPR PF. I would be hard pressed to pay an extra US$400 on average. Now I don't know the reason, but will just leave it at that.

I paid $839 total with delivery for my Mirco Whirlwind playfield... how is that +400$ higher than CPR’s offering?

#232 9 days ago
Quoted from LongJohns:

Also just a quick comment on Microplay PF - I have yet to see one so can not comment on the quality

I’ve done a mirco pf swap on a friend’s BSD. A couple missing through holes, a couple topside dimples way off, and same as your comments re backside dimples you can’t trust them 100%. I didn’t find anything covered with ink though. So i think any advice or tips on pf swaps are valid for any pf manufacturer.

#233 9 days ago
Quoted from Marvin:

No shit, but how is this relevant to the reply to Formica that was specifically quoted?

I’m sorry. You are correct. I should have addressed the original poster.

Trying to compare Formica to Richlite is like trying to compare horse apples to cow pies. They might be of the same but they are not the same.

#234 9 days ago
Quoted from cottonm4:

I’m sorry. You are correct. I should have addressed the original poster.
Trying to compare Formica to Richlite is like trying to compare horse apples to cow pies. They might be of the same but they are not the same.

That makes sense, I had no idea how that was relevant.

#235 9 days ago
Quoted from Completist:

I’ve done a mirco pf swap on a friend’s BSD. A couple missing through holes, a couple topside dimples way off, and same as your comments re backside dimples you can’t trust them 100%. I didn’t find anything covered with ink though. So i think any advice or tips on pf swaps are valid for any pf manufacturer.

Neither relevant or irrevant to what you are saying here but if you are locating “deep” items like drop targets having a small selection of 12” drill bits can be handy with their long reach.

Also, not completely necessary, but as a good insurance policy, have two sets of drill stops are nice to have, also.

Why 2 sets? Use 2 as insurance in case the 1st stop was to let go and you find you have drilled thru to your new play field surface.

#236 9 days ago

My comparison was simply that the substrate of formica, is resin impregnated paper. As you describe the other product. As for durability on a play field, dimpling Etc I made no claims.

Quoted from cottonm4:

I’m sorry. You are correct. I should have addressed the original poster.
Trying to compare Formica to Richlite is like trying to compare horse apples to cow pies. They might be of the same but they are not the same.

#237 4 days ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

vireland has gone quiet all of a sudden...

That's because vireland is sick of repeating the same truth, having already made the salient points with backup from CPR's additional information. Stern is cranking out crappier playfields that crater as a result of their drive for fatter profits at all costs, and an EXPERT who makes these PFs all the time has explained the reasons why that is in great detail by comparing it indirectly to the CPR superior wood choices (thanks, CPR!).

Stern has chosen fatter profits over making comparable product to what was available pre-2008 mill closure, which is why their playfield output is very uneven and in general craters more than dimples now. It's not that hard a concept to understand, and yet you persist.

#238 4 days ago
Quoted from vireland:

That's because vireland is sick of repeating the same truth, having already made the salient points with backup from CPR's additional information. Stern is cranking out crappier playfields that crater as a result of their drive for fatter profits at all costs, and an EXPERT who makes these PFs all the time has explained the reasons why that is in great detail by comparing it indirectly to the CPR superior wood choices (thanks, CPR!).
Stern has chosen fatter profits over making comparable product to what was available pre-2008 mill closure, which is why their playfield output is very uneven and in general craters more than dimples now. It's not that hard a concept to understand, and yet you persist.

I am willing to speculate that Stern doesn't even realize they are getting an inferior playfield blank these days. These bigger companies are always calling in their vendors and asking for cost reductions to keep being their vendors. Bean counters don't care about quality. They care about a number and having something that resembles the item they want, when they want it.

The home building industry is notorious for this. The economy slows down Big Spec House Builder Bob gets all his subs together and says if you want us to keep giving you work, you need to knock 20% off your price. Small Sub Stan scratches his head, and buys cheaper plumbing parts. Or cheaper quality windows and doors because he already has a competitive price and still feels strongly about being able to eat dinner next week.

The big box home supply stores are notorious for this as well. Say there are two big rain carrying system suppliers for the major big boxes...and they both want the big orange box's business because its 75 million in sales a year. There isn't much room to trim fat left off processing aluminum to turn into gutter...so what happens? The metal gets thinner. 30 years ago, your gutter was 20 gauge (.032"). Well, it keeps getting thinner and thinner. Most of it is 26 gauge (.016") or less now. Big orange box doesn't care...it looks like a piece of gutter, still holds water, and the purchasing agent looks like a hero that year for winning a 10% cost reduction. They have no idea that its comparatively a lower quality item now...and they don't really care.

#239 4 days ago
Quoted from JodyG:

I am willing to speculate that Stern doesn't even realize they are getting an inferior playfield blank these days.

Let's not promote the path of a Stern apologist with this kind of "out."

When Stern is sending out STEVE RITCHIE to parrot information he HAS TO KNOW is false (especially in light of them screwing him over with the legendary "as designed" non-fix for GoT Prem/LE mechanical design problem with the orbit), and they are loading up pinside with shills shouting down anyone who mentions the truth of their current playfields sucking due to much heavier cratering than earlier this century and all of the late 20th century, STERN KNOWS they're putting out an inferior playfield. And cutting them slack by letting the shills get away with denying the truth, or excusing them sending Steve to do their dirty PR work is not helping anyone.

#240 4 days ago
Quoted from vireland:

Let's not promote the path of a Stern apologist with this kind of "out."
When Stern is sending out STEVE RITCHIE to parrot information he HAS TO KNOW is false (especially in light of them screwing him over with the legendary "as designed" non-fix for GoT Prem/LE mechanical design problem with the orbit), and they are loading up pinside with shills shouting down anyone who mentions the truth of their current playfields sucking due to much heavier cratering than earlier this century and all of the late 20th century, STERN KNOWS they're putting out an inferior playfield. And cutting them slack by letting the shills get away with denying the truth, or excusing them sending Steve to do their dirty PR work is not helping anyone.

I definitely don't want to give Stern an out...I think they need to up their game. But they won't until someone else makes them. Stern is apathetic right now because they are king of the heap. They don't have to do better...everyone is still buying their games on day one without playing them. Another manufacturer needs to start an ad campaign championing their higher quality materials over the competition with a head to head comparison. This company also needs to be successful at taking measurable market share away from Stern. The easiest path to that point is by selling a machine with an MSRP at or under Stern Pro pricing. That is probably the only way Stern will be shamed into building a better mousetrap.

#241 4 days ago
Quoted from vireland:

It's not that hard a concept to understand, and yet you persist.

It's because you take one truth.. and then add-in conjecture and misquotes and act like the second half is true because first mention was. You take a factual references about wood differences... and then get all the facts wrong and make up your own new falsehoods.

CPR is using better wood - true! No one is contesting that. Everything else you've gone on about... is not credible simply because CPR says they are using more expensive wood.

#242 4 days ago
Quoted from vireland:

Let's not promote the path of a Stern apologist with this kind of "out."
When Stern is sending out STEVE RITCHIE to parrot information he HAS TO KNOW is false (especially in light of them screwing him over with the legendary "as designed" non-fix for GoT Prem/LE mechanical design problem with the orbit), and they are loading up pinside with shills shouting down anyone who mentions the truth of their current playfields sucking due to much heavier cratering than earlier this century and all of the late 20th century, STERN KNOWS they're putting out an inferior playfield. And cutting them slack by letting the shills get away with denying the truth, or excusing them sending Steve to do their dirty PR work is not helping anyone.

The goal post keeps getting moved on this subject. doesn't it? Mean time we can clearly see a difference just standing in front of our games.

#243 4 days ago
Quoted from vireland:

Let's not promote the path of a Stern apologist with this kind of "out."
When Stern is sending out STEVE RITCHIE to parrot information he HAS TO KNOW is false (especially in light of them screwing him over with the legendary "as designed" non-fix for GoT Prem/LE mechanical design problem with the orbit), and they are loading up pinside with shills shouting down anyone who mentions the truth of their current playfields sucking due to much heavier cratering than earlier this century and all of the late 20th century, STERN KNOWS they're putting out an inferior playfield. And cutting them slack by letting the shills get away with denying the truth, or excusing them sending Steve to do their dirty PR work is not helping anyone.

So you got nothing.

#244 4 days ago
Quoted from Marvin:

So you got nothing.

No, actually as an unverified fake account, YOU got nothing. Trolling here or to me over and over on PM when I've asked you to stop bothering me until you're verified (because you're a fake/troll account) is still trolling, and you're using this fake account because you don't want to ruin your "good" rep on your verified account. You're not fooling anyone paying attention. Vpns and spoofed IPs can't change writing habits. You might persuade the dumbest that you're someone else, but that's about it.

Try verifying your fake pinside account and maybe then people will take anything you say seriously.

#245 4 days ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

It's because you take one truth.. and then add-in conjecture and misquotes and act like the second half is true because first mention was. You take a factual references about wood differences... and then get all the facts wrong and make up your own new falsehoods.
CPR is using better wood - true! No one is contesting that. Everything else you've gone on about... is not credible simply because CPR says they are using more expensive wood.

Let me boil it down to a VERY simple A/B for you:

A> CPR is using better wood and it does not crater, only dimples like the old pre-2008 "normal"
B> Stern is using lesser wood and it DOES crater much more noticibly than old pre-2008 "normal"

People saying Stern playfield wood is the same as it's always been are lying or blind, and CPRs very clear explanation of why things changed in 2008 and what choices they made (better) vs what choices Stern made (worse) give us the why in great detail.

#246 4 days ago
Quoted from vireland:

No, actually as an unverified fake account, YOU got nothing. Trolling here or to me over and over on PM when I've asked you to stop bothering me until you're verified (because you're a fake/troll account) is still trolling, and you're using this fake account because you don't want to ruin your "good" rep on your verified account. You're not fooling anyone paying attention. Vpns and spoofed IPs can't change writing habits. You might persuade the dumbest that you're someone else, but that's about it.
Try verifying your fake pinside account and maybe then people will take anything you say seriously.

Lol
We could all use a good laugh, tell me who I supposedly am sine you claim to "know". Do it here in public so we can all laugh at the next thing you are wrong about.

#247 4 days ago

Stern probably could transition to CPR playfield material makeup for a small increase over the volume they produce.

I typically don’t want to pay a penny more than I pay for my new LEs, but I would pay another $50 to get a solid playfield! Heck they just beefed up my Munsters LE base cabinet bottom plywood!

-1
#248 4 days ago
Quoted from vireland:

Let me boil it down to a VERY simple A/B for you:
A> CPR is using better wood and it does not crater, only dimples like the old pre-2008 "normal"
B> Stern is using lesser wood and it DOES crater much more noticibly than old pre-2008 "normal"
People saying Stern playfield wood is the same as it's always been are lying or blind, and CPRs very clear explanation of why things changed in 2008 and what choices they made (better) vs what choices Stern made (worse) give us the why in great detail.

CPR stated Stern increased the thickness from 40 to 48 at that time.

-1
#249 4 days ago
Quoted from Marvin:

Lol
We could all use a good laugh, tell me who I supposedly am sine you claim to "know". Do it here in public so we can all laugh at the next thing you are wrong about.

You can mock all you want, but like I told you in PM when you were so desperate to be heard you couldn't stop PMing me, I'm not interacting with a fake account. Get verified and we can debate in the open. Until then, I'm not interacting with you. Using unverified shill accounts is cowardly. Fortunately I can block you on the forums, so goodbye, phony account.

#250 4 days ago
Quoted from vireland:

You can mock all you want, but like I told you in PM when you were so desperate to be heard you couldn't stop PMing me, I'm not interacting with a fake account. Get verified and we can debate in the open. Until then, I'm not interacting with you. Using unverified shill accounts is cowardly. Fortunately I can block you on the forums, so goodbye, phony account.

So the threat to tell the mods on me ended up with you being wrong... again.

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