Both layers are 64% thicker. That's not a twist. Top and bottom, yes, but 64% thicker top layer than Stern isn't for no improvement.

.048 Stern face veneer wood thickness
.075 CPR face veneer wood thickness

It's not a small difference, and likely accounts for the lion's share of the heavy dimpling Sterns see now compared to pretty much every other contemporary and historical playfield norms.

.048 stern thickness now, .048 stern thickness then. No difference. It's not that they are picking cheaper version, its the same version as before. They are not opting for a more expensive one that they have never used before. If they used to use .075 and now use .048 then you can make the cheapening out claim.

The thickness bump is a compensation for the wood dryness/density which changed in 2008 when the legacy mill was closed and everyone scrambled to find new wood according to the post.

Hey alright, belairjoe is still around!

It's not that simple tho. The variations in one PF design may be zero... while the variations in another could require significant trade-offs depending on the art and colors used.

It's really that there are limits to what the digital print can do... and if those limitations become significant on a certain design.

Mirco has even done things where he must have blended the techs to get effects.. like screening over a digital print, etc.

Point being... it's not a binary thing. It depends on the project and what choices are made to deal with limitations.

Forgive me if I am wrong, but it sounds like you have never been in business for yourself. If you have been or are in business you would realize just how fast costs can mount and spin out of control. And now you have designed something you cannot afford to produce. Some body has to keep an eye on the costs.

Consider, you buy a new CPR play field and get it out of the box. You are going to get out your magnifying glass and hit it with a fine tooth comb. Top side and bottom side. So that CPR play field better sparkle like a diamond in a goat's ass you will be crying the blues about the ugly looking bottom side of the play field. CPR has to go with the higher grade. And it is going to be for visibility and not structural reasons.

Stern does not have to worry about you scoping out the bottom of the play field on your NIB pin. With all of the wiring and brackets and other play field paraphernalia screwed to the lower side you won't be able see anything anyway. Your pin will play the same even though a lesser product is used on the underside.

Read it agin. It is the bottom side that is the lesser. The top side, the important side is only one that counts.

The next time you are out looking to buy a car and it has leather seats, take a closer look at those seats. The part of the seat you put your butt in is leather. And that is about all that is leather.

The top of your seat where the headrest is at is plastic. The sides of your seat are plastic. The backs of your seats are also plastic. Or pleather. Or Naugahyde. Or vinyl.

Or it might even be bonded leather. Bonded leather is leather scraps molded together with.....let's hear it.....plastic. 20% bonded leather means 20% of your leather couch is leather shavings to give some leather smell and the rest is plastic. Of course, your furniture sales rep will try to avoid that conversation as he tells you about the leather couch he wants you to buy. The sales brochure, by law, has to tell you what you are buying is not real leather. It is bonded leather. But you did not ask what bonded leather was. And 5 years later the "leather "on your couch starts peeling off of the arm rests and you see cloth underneath.

If it was real leather, most people would not be able to afford the couch.

Can't you just hear the late George Carlin blasting that out in his stage act? "IT'S B-O-N-D-E-D Leaaaaather.

That leather feels good on your back and on your butt. But can you honestly tell me that you give a rat's ass that the back of the seat and the map pocket are plastic? Or pleather? Or whatever? Does it really matter? As long as you your butt feels the leather and the rest of the seat is not falling apart, does it really matter?

See above. Have you ever been in business for yourself ? I have. Do you know what its like to look in the bank account and not have enough funds to pay your employees? I do.

So, how is this 2nd grade piece of wood going to be costing Gary future sales? Before CPR revealed this information, was this even on your radar? Are you saying you have been a NIB buyer and now you wont be? How many people are going to quit buying a Stern pin because the bottom of the play field something less than top shelf---appearance wise?

I don't want to say I told you so but....

Correct - but that was a different cite and set of facts then what you mashed together for your cheap out over $12 comments. And again, someone going OVER THE TOP of you does not mean you cheaped and costed things out. It means someone is spending more than you.

It's material like this that keeps me coming back to Pinside!

They weren't going "over the top" they were trying to re-attain the status quo of the wood the mill that closed was delivering using currently available wood. That's not "over the top."

Well, you'd be wrong. I've been doing manufacture here and overseas for a LONG TIME. Had $20 million years and $200,000 years, but I know the process.

I think you're misreading @CPR's post. He talks about the ups and down over the years in sourcing playfields, but he's downright enthusiastic about the quality of his current supply, and I definitely didn't see anywhere that he was complaining about how much it costs just to get a product that's as good as the stuff from the old days. He also goes out of his way not to attack Stern's product, but to clarify that CPR is going above and beyond in the pursuit of excellence.

No - again, you're mashing references up to make your own new cites. He never said he made those choices to equate to the wood used before - he said he made those choices based on the product he and the supplier's input on what he felt would make the best product from that supplier.

Look, you can take it sentence by sentence and twist to your liking, but it's clear from that lengthy paragraph in micro and macro that he's saying the reason CPR playfields don't crater is they spend extra on the face veneer thickness and Stern doesn't. His wrapup paragraph doesn't call Stern by name, but definitely refers to them with "like some others do" and "some other playfield manufacturers" etc:

"You get a much nicer product and a much denser and tougher PF. This wood is 25% heavier for the same size panel as our old wood and nearly a third heavier as Baltic Birch which some other playfield manufacturers use. I would love to use cheaper wood like some others do, after all why would I pay $12.50/sqft landed when I can get birch at less than $2.00sqft? We use the best densest hardest custom wood we can get because we think its worth it and we always try to make the very best product we can. "

And it makes sense. Even if they only paid $6 more (half the two sided $12) to use a harder face veneer on the front only to get CPR-level legacy hardness PF results from the SAME MILL Stern uses, why wouldn't Stern pay that? Cost reduction. It's a DECISION by Stern.

He's not calling Stern out by name, but he uses "like some others do" and "other playfield manufacturers" so it's pretty clear who is making the cheap playfield choices to the detriment of final results.

Yes - but that is not carte blanc to run around citing numbers incorrectly. Say CPR does thicker veeners than Stern - Correct. Say CPR pays more for their wood. Correct. But to cite the $12 and say Stern is being cheap for NOT doing what CPR is doing - That is incorrect and not what Mike has said.

The $12 as I understood it was the delta in using the higher quality veneer on the bottom later per blank. So for Stern to make the same.. would extrapolate to $24 per sheet because they have to improve both top and bottom. Mike simply said CPR chose to improve the bottom as well.. at a cost of $12.

When Ferrari spends more on a paint job than Jaguar - that doesn't mean Jaguar is cutting corners and cheaping out. It means Ferrari is investing more in their paint jobs.

And his other manufacturers comment could have easily be Mirco.. not Stern.

Point being - stop taking cites and making up your own filler and spreading it like it was direct from the source.

Look, you're doing the same thing trying to minimize what he said. The $12 PER PANEL (not per sq ft) is for thicker veneer on BOTH SIDES. Here's the quote:

"...3 layers of white ash cores then we use 4 layers of maritime hard maple BUT we increased the thickness of the two face veneers by 64% to get a nominal face thickness of 0.075". These huge and thick ONE piece veneers are crazy expensive and we always get this top grade veneer on BOTH sides of your PF. This alone added $12 to the cost of each panel vs just using a second grade veneer on the bottom like Stern does."

So he says "we increased the thickness of the two face veneers by 64%" - that means thicker than Stern on the bottom AND TOP.

He says "These huge and thick ONE piece veneers are crazy expensive and we always get this top grade veneer on BOTH sides of your PF. This alone added $12 to the cost of each panel vs just using a second grade veneer on the bottom like Stern does."

This CLEARLY states that they have a thicker veneer on the TOP and the Bottom and Stern has their standard thinner veneer and a second grade veneer on the bottom.

CPR playfields don't crater. Sterns do now (usually, with a few specific run exceptions). Splitting that $12 cost to the top side only (and note that he says the cost is PER PANEL not PER SQ FOOT) that's a $6 difference for Stern to make playfield surfaces that are as hard as CPR, which is essentially legacy PF hardness.

Rolling the dice on Stern when it comes to playfields is definitely on my radar, but I know that I am in the minority.

Incorrect, CPR actually did call Stern out by name. Just not in a way that supports your argument:

And if CPR is taking a poke at "other playfield manufacturers" the obvious target is Mirco (the competition), not Stern (who sources playfields from the same place as CPR).

Because you're mixing and mashing. Yes, he said the difference was the thicker veener on top and bottom - but past that is where you keep crossing wires. The $12 reference is to his choice to put the thicker veener on the bottom - vs using a lower grade on the bottom. The reference is purely about just the bottom panel delta vs CPRs other option. It's not necessarily comparing his configuration price vs Stern's configuration. Because the configurations vary not just on the bottom, but in the top layer too. Which is why the $12 is not the cost variance between the CPR and Stern configurations.

As to the sqft point (which is a DIFFERENT reference) I point you to this sentence again...

"I would love to use cheaper wood like some others do, after all why would I pay $12.50/sqft landed when I can get birch at less than $2.00sqft?"

Which you should know is a pointer towards who uses birch... and that would be our German friend.

Wow this post went from, "preorders being meaningless" to quality of playfield wood. Amazing!!

No matter what, people only hear what they want to hear; you can't explain it to them.

They will pull each word out of context to make sure that they heard that Stern "cheaped out" and saved $6 by not spending $12.

Stern has not posted a single word in this thread; anything they think they read about Stern is 100% hearsay.

OK. I stand corrected. Then you would know, for example, the value of not using a finish carpenter to do rough carpenter work. And you would know that it makes no sense to install a part costing 20% more when the lower cost part will perform just as well in an area that is not visible; Or maybe even in a area that is visible.

If you ever get the chance to visit a space and science museum and have the opportunity to view one of the old Atlas rockets up close you will be surprised at the sloppy sheet metal work performed on those rockets. Custom car show sheet metal work was not needed for something that most people would only see on TV and something that was for one-time use. But where it counted, those rockets close tolerance assemblies. There was no point in over-building.

Bahahaha!! I almost fell over laughing when I read that. I have things that Vic Ireland sold on my shelves right now.

Does anyone know why the Globetrotters playfield disappeared off of website? My uncle had one “pre-ordered.”

Because it's in Clear-Coating right now & they are not taking any more pre-orders. Once it's ready it will most likely be shown on their home page

Thank you!

Technical question - what does putting a thicker veneer on the top of the playfield do? Why does CPR insist on a thicker veneer?

Interesting post, usually when someone comes in to defend themselves in the post they don’t agree with the post title. Doesn’t seem to be the case here

Answer is a 2 part:
a Thicker "top" veneer allows them to sand the board flat prior to the cnc process and then again After the cnc/Inserts have been glued in ( which all inserts have Raised Part Numbers on them that have to be sanded off ). A 'thinner' veneer would not allow for a second sanding process. The inserts that Mirco uses he manufactures himself and won't sell to others don't have the raised part numbers, thus Mirco can get away with only 1 sanding. Mirco is also the supplier that CPR was referring to as the ones using Baltic Birch, instead of Hard Rock Maple ( that CPR uses ).....

The reason for doing a thicker "bottom" is so that they have a Choice to choose the Best Side to print on ( grain, blemishes in wood, divots, etc. ) all play a part in which side to Print on. With a thinner veneer on the bottom they would be limited to printing on 1 side only and what ever we get is whatever we get. CPR is looking out for our best interests in providing the best product possible.

Even more precisely, they are all back from clearcoat. So they are ready to go. It's no longer in "The Pipe"... it's a shipping product as soon as I can get a DSLR photo shoot done, and get it announced. Then we begin the emails in waves...

We opted for a thicker veneer in the end, because it gives us more "meat" on the face(s) for drum sanding/levelling... we use the OEM methodlogy of gluing the inserts in their holes, slightly high, and the ENTIRE surface (inserts, epoxy, and all) get levelled down to flat. Like guitar neck inlays.

Since no plywood starts 'pool table flat' , there are slight high and low spots on the faces. If the veneers are business-card thin, there is risk of burnthrough and exposing patches of the next layer - which has happened in the past enough that 5%-10% of a run showing little burnthrough patches, albeit levelled, was just lower cosmetic quality.

The reason we go for both faces instead of one side is to give ourselves double the options of which side will be the front. So we literally make judgment on the actual woodgrain appearance before it is decided which side is "up" on the CNC machinery.

LOL we were literally both entering the same answer at the same time. When I hit Post, the page updated and both ours went on my screen.

and as they explained with small runs they do they can't afford to send back rejects for credit. Stern can take in 1000 blanks, reject 100 and it does not matter. The lumber is local and they are big enough customer that the supplier will cover the returns. They aren't going to cover a shipping returns from a "small" customer in another country, or even a small customer a long way away in the same country.

Thanks Mr. Sockpuppet

That still doesn't explain their professional, experienced comment IN THE PLAYFIELD MANUFACTURE BUSINESS that they seek and get the "densest, hardest" playfields, and their face veneer is thicker than Sterns to achieve that, "Marvin".

But it does explain why Stern uses 2nd grade for the lower side of the play field. Are you going to give Stern a pass, or are you still bent out shape about that?

Couldn't care less about the underside of the playfield. Make it as ugly as you want. Make it SMOOTH, but ugly is okay. I just want to be able to clean it and not get slivers if I change something out. AFAIC, it's irrelevant to the detailed playfield hardness revelations by CPR.

Man, what a difference a day makes.

Ummm....

Thickness (height of the layer) does not equate to hardness (ability to resist dimples). A 1 inch layer of pudding on top of a playfield isn't going to make it resist dimpling. If CPR is using a higher hardness, more dense veneer than Stern playfields, then maybe, but from my reading CPR is saying they use the same wood veneer as Stern. It is thicker (for sanding reasons). Unless the ball is putting dimples right through the veneer I don't see how thick the layer is relevant. You are playing on the surface.

I'll admit that I'm lost. Where, exactly, did CPR offer "detailed playfield hardness revelations"?

Do you mean when they said the maritime hard maple veneers on their playfields are harder than the baltic birch used by "the other guys" (referring of course to Mirco, not Stern, since Stern doesn't use baltic birch). Isn't Stern using the very same stuff, maritime hard maple, for their veneers? Yes, CPR uses a thicker layer of veneer, but is there a reason to think that would somehow make the surface harder? Especially when CPR says they sand the veneer down substantially in their manufacturing process, so that it might even be comparable in veneer thickness to a Stern playfield by the time it ships?

[EDIT: paul_8788 beat me to it, and better-worded to boot]

Maybe it's the other way around? Put a thin veneer on top of pudding. Does .048 vs .075 matter then?

I want to make everyone aware that we do not use Baltic birch. We have the hardest north American maple top and bottom layers as visible veneers which are available on the market. We have them shipped in from north America and they go through a special hardness test to make sure they are hard enough. We use only A graded quality.

By the way - if top and bottom layer veneers are not in the same thickness the boards will warp. So if there are different thicknesses used or one is sanded too thin and the other is kept at full thickness warping could happen worse than normal.

Regards,
Mirco

Actually, thinking about it, pudding may be the perfect playfield material when it comes to dimpling. It is more of a thick liquid, so dimples would just disappear. Ball times would be really slow though, and it would create a lot of mess with splashing, etc.

LOL..

I don't make playfields, or run a real pinball business. I just makes some mods for the community on the side. And I'm not trying to blow anyone up here, so don't take this personally if i'm talking about you when I say this:

Pinball people are ... flighty.

I'll do an interest list for a run of Shadow translites, and like CPR it can take time to fill up. When I think I have enough people I email everyone, and if you're not interested anymore, no hard feelings. I haven't invested anything yet, maybe it's been 6 months, you moved on, no problem. But I do ask if you're still in to be serious, because I'm about to spend a few thousand dollars on printing etc.

I put in the order with my printer, a few weeks go by, I email people to tell them the prints are ready and it's time to pay up (I never take money until product exists). And every time it seems like there's always someone who tells me they just sold the machine and don't want it anymore.

Really? In the 3 weeks between saying "I'm in!" and the prints getting done you sold the game? This is what you deal with. It's not a big deal, I've never had a problem finding a buyer, no hard feelings to anyone. But I do roll my eyes a little bit. Now imagine it took a year or two to get that list together, I promise you there are more people who moved on that I get in 3 weeks. I utterly understand how CPR does things the way they do.

i gotta give some credit to cpr for coming to the thread and addressing the issue to the community in general instead of a facebook or twitter or whatever post. i think they do a good job with their pfs aswell as backglasses and plastics.

mjr

They said the core was birch. What is your core made of?