Stu, sorry you didn't get the humor I tried to express in my comment about special wood. The price for TOTAN on your site went up 28%, and is about 40% more than the average PF on your site, all of which use the same amount of wood. Your primary explanation for that was that the price of wood tripled. Then, the explanation expanded to complexity, time, and materials, which seems a lot more plausible and reasonable than the price of wood tripling.

I thanked you above for answering and for not getting PO'd about it, because I thought I asked a pretty fair question.

Large crew and/or multiple CNCs?

I see your letting off some steam here but that's OK by me. People should know better.

I like how Stu went out of his way to uphold his reputation

Commercial CNC routers have automatic tool changers that do all the router bit changing automatically AND they have two or more cutting spindles that run at the same time.

Any chance of Mousin' Around plastics coming down the line?

Ok i will change e subject, i got my elvira back glass today. Bad ass!
Hope you do a EATPM PF some day!

Whats the hold up, waiting for December?

I think that would be a good seller, seems like they are have wear.

Who said anything about not liking your posts? As I wrote, I liked that you chimed in to uphold your cranky reputation. I appreciate what you do and the crankiness is merely part of the enjoyment

I don't think you are lying at all.

CNC routers is what I do.

A commercial wood router that has 14 different tool change positions and 60x192" cutting bed is pretty standard in the industry.

Even "hobbyist" routers like Shopbot or Shopsabre can have 12 tool positions (at least I've seen that many at the Makerfare, could be more in practice...).

Assuming there is 48x144" Maple stock available on a consistent basis, each deployed machine could be cutting 6 playfields at a time with no manual tooling changes and only one sheet stock to load.

I own a Cnc machine shop and specialize in high precision injection mold builds and product development.
I also own my own brand of firearms accessories that we build, market and sell.
What i have learned over the years is forums like this can make or break a guy.
I learned to not even talk about a new product until it was ready to sell.
That really throws off consumers and they go "wow". Totally a hero, no gossip, no forum fights, no pre order BS.
I'm sure there is more involved with making repro PF's than most people know.
Keep it up. Good stuff.

Cool!

Link?

I try to keep a low profile here
Don't want to hijack the thread. Ha ha pm

I found out my first custom plywood is no longer available from the mill. I believe CPR has had close to 5 sources over their years. Wood is going up, & sources are getting hard to find.

That's beautiful John!

My Rollergames plastics arrived yesterday. They are awesome! Thank you!

I sure don't Stu, I pick-up and deliver to machine shops and I've seen first hand what 3 bit spindles look and work like. It's REALLY amazing. Keep the faith Stu.

That's cool, one of the places I pick-up and deliver to does the exact same thing it's called Vision Mold in Elk River, MN. The biggest I've hauled for them was a 3000lb'er. That's big for a van to haul.

Well my BOP backglass arrived. It is colourful, sharp and beautiful to look at. I now understand what CPR were saying in that you can't compare the two. I've added an image I put together of before (translite) and now with the glass. Really, they are two completely different products. I'm going to have to redo my lighting I think because the light comes through much sharper and with different hues. That will need to be adjusted.

You'll notice it looks considerably darker than the original. That's because of all the blue that my translite just doesn't have. When looked at as a whole (the entire machine) the glass looks perfect as it matches the blues and purples of the cabinet work. It ties it all together really well.

beforeafterglass.jpg

I've now changed out the blue LEDs I had in there before and that has helped with the darkness / blueness.

I have to say though, I think it looks better than the translite, but the backglass has issues. The white is too blown out and detail has been lost as a result. If you look at the picture you will see half her nose is missing for example (there's plenty of areas to choose from), whereas the translite is fine. This is more noticeable in person. She looks 'washed out' to a degree. This might have been a conscious decision to try and nullify the darkening effect of all the blue. Even so, I think that's a shame.

BUT, have you tried all #44, 555 (incandescent) bulbs first?

If there is one thing LEDs are good for, it's making even the best backglass look like trash.......

Are you using retro bulbs or super-brights?

#555.

Mine will be with original bulbs. I think that's the only good way to compare. Just waiting for it to arrive...

Mine came yesterday looks fanstatic. Still dont know its its going on a wall or in the game since I have the Python signed TL.

The pricing is my decision, so I can give a few more details beyond what Stu can provide. I'm not upset by the question or some of the speculations posted by others, so don't read into my post as being defensive. I won't be doing these kind of public justifications probably ever again, but at least this one time I can respond as kind of a time capsule or testament that can be linked-to later (by Stu or others) to direct any price questioning to this post.

First off, I want to make clear that the Request (formerly "Preorder") page/lists at our site are name collector inboxes. We take no deposits, and simply count heads and create mailing lists for the first grabs of who gets the playfields upon release. You're basically raising your hand for first dibs, in a queue, instead of us just releasing them public. We think it's more orderly than just making playfields go "open season" at release. While we prefer that people hold to their slot(s) and buy at release time, truly there is no enforcable obligation to follow through. Many don't, on every run. People back out all the time. In fact, on the most recent FIRE run, a staggering 40% were no-shows, and we're left holding the bag on a near-half unsold portion of the run. In turn, it's a two-way street, and just like there is no obligation to buy, we don't have an obligation to sell/price the playfields in any fixated way. We're not even obligated to run them. This two-way freedom has it's pros and cons. Pros that we have the freedom to make what we want, and when we want - in no particular order or on any timelines. Nobody is breathing down our neck, with $50 or $100 deposits being held, and demanding updates and/or deadlines. Con (for us) is the customer doesn't even have to follow through on the playfield purchase. Thus we made one available for them, but nada. Pro for them, because they aren't stuck buying a playfield at release when a) they may have sold the game b) they may have bought something else with their hobby bankroll, or c) they simply don't have the money and/or are in a bad spot.

This leads to the pricing estimates part. We try our best to hold true to the posted estimate (and they were always listed as "Estimated Price") but there too, we aren't stuck. When reality creeps up and hard production reaches true tallies on the BOM, sometimes things can change a little bit. This was the case with TOTAN.

The estimated price was previously $799. Just so everybody knows, it was a $100 increase, not $200. 12.5% Anybody can check back in the Wayback Machine site to see this if they need to. (archive.org)

So here are the one-time reasons for this small price shift. For any future links to this post, any or all these kinds of reasons may/could pertain to future price shifts that folks may wonder about:

- TOTAN is a beast. Period. Full Stop. Waaaay more complex than we ever anticipated. Could possibly be the most complex repro playfield ever attempted by any maker, at any time in the history of the hobby. Medieval Madness my ass. This thing is wooden swiss cheese, it's got so many cuts (see below). It is easily +100% more overall work per playfield, as opposed to our more "normal" releases.

- Cut time is over double a "normal" playfield. Yes, we could cut two "normal" playfields in the time it takes to yield one TOTAN blank. I won't get into timing, but we officially yield half as many TOTANs per day, as opposed to other playfields. Our pile is growing significantly slower, and the clock is ticking. We could be making twice as many of any other release during this same time.

- Double to triple the inserts of a "normal" playfield. Plus we won't even get into the insert oddities/dramas/expenses that some of these inserts took to get found/molded - and some are one-of-a-kind, never used on another playfield. Some of the inserts (like lightning bolts and hotdogs) are a bitch to inlay, and take 5-6 times the time to seat properly and glue effectively, as opposed to regular rounds and arrows. Thus, with its 70+ assorted inserts, gluing a TOTAN is like gluing 100-125 regular "round" inserts.

- The TOTAN art package is a 14-color beast as well. Again, double the color shifts at print time. Most playfields have a pallate of 7-9 spot colors and they are done.

- The wood for this run was a custom 46" (not 42" standard length) gameboard run at the mill. We also sprung for extra-special stock, made with REALLY hearty face layers (beyond the meaty faces we normally get now) and we're back to solid ash (yes, ash) cores. There is no choice for TOTAN, as half the wood is routed away - structural intregrity in the remaining board is extremely important.

- Put bluntly, to make one TOTAN, we *could* have made *two* "regular" $699 playfields. That's $899 vs. $1398 in revenue for the same CPR production period spent.

- Our $599-$699 playfields go into $500-$1500 games. TOTAN is a $899 playfield into a $4000+ game. Plus AAA-machine DMD repro playfields from other makers have sold for $800-$900 at release, all day long. Plus, none of them were TOTAN. Ol' Totey trumps them all, IMO.

Anyway guys, this run was a long time coming. It's CPR's first "DMD" playfield for an AAA game. We want it to be done right, and we have to recover our back end on this one when it comes release time. The quid we've floated into this one is the most we've ever committed on a playfield, in our entire history back to 2005. We're still going to be months before the first wave of these come out. The run is also big enough (according to those raised hands) that it's going to take two or more runs to complete enough to serve all.

Here's photos of a $699 playfield (upcoming EK, third-party licensed BTW) compared to $899 TOTAN, plus some closeups of the TOTAN official cut. Note: these are MDF pilot cuts, where everything is verified before the machine is ever thrown over to real gameboard wood.

KEVIN
Classic Playfield Reproductions
http://www.classicplayfields.com

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Thanks Keven for the intelligent answer!

Looking forward to seeing the finished product, keep up the good work CPR .

Love the Rollergames plastics! I only need the three bank ball lock plastic though and I can't validate buying the whole kit for one plastic. If anyone is replacing an old but unbroken one with the new set, I'd be happy to buy it off you!

Translation: The wife would murder me for spending 165 for one piece of plastic!

I grabbed a Bad Cats plastic set not too long ago and it was awesome, great job CPR!

We appreciate all the time and effort that you put into your products. Extra insight from a peek behind the curtain is a real treat.

On another note, I got my BOP backglass today....looks pretty good. I took a quick video while unboxing it to help show some of the mirroring in the artwork, since it's hard to see it in a still photograph. Many of the lines that appear silver or white in photos are actually mirrored.

HOW THE SMEG?!?!

OMG..... man that makes my brain hurt just thinking about it!!

Where do I sign up to buy one of those MDF totan cutouts? lol

Being a machinist myself, and having my own business...I know, first hand...time is money.

That TOTAN playfield requires a lot more time to remove all of that material.

I can see why top quality wood would be required. I'm surprised, w/ all of those cut-outs, that the playfield has any structural integrity left.

I do a lot of jobs like that myself...the part starts off weighing 10 lbs...when finished, it weighs 10 oz.

Making a toothpick out of a tree, so to speak.

Keep up the great work CPR.

I just received my first CPR playfield...(Fire!)

WOW, you guys do fantastic work.

Thanks for providing these nice playfield to all of us hobbyists.

We have some EATPM plastics on the way right now. How do we "throw our hands up in the air" for a playfield??

Thank you Kevin for taking the time to give us all that info. The way some people think your pricing isn't fair is beyond me.

Oups.

If a person wants to commit or be counted for a future playfield release (essentially making a reservation for one), then visit the Request section of our site. There are separate email inboxes there to take your message(s). We collect names for 1+ years in advance of actual production. We typically have five to seven future playfield candidates collecting names at any given time on there. For playfields only. Not glasses or plastics. It really helps us get our ducks in a row, so we can prepare required supplies well in advance. Those inboxes also play a large role in determining how many playfields we make of each run. So for example, if 75 people have sent in their info after a year of the inbox being open - we'll shoot for making 100 pieces if we head into production on that title. They're a great demand-o-meter, which in this example tells us obviously not to make 150 or 200.

KEVIN
Classic Playfield Reproductions
http://www.classicplayfields.com

I don't think this dawns on most people's minds because all they see if a colorful playfield. I suppose there's a reason why TOTAN is a $6k+ game above and beyond the gameplay/artwork. Thanks for this lengthy explanation. I don't think any company needs to justify their pricing, but I'm glad that you do.

You know, I've been basking in the glow of my new backglass for a few days, and yes, the figure on it seems to be a bit oversaturated, and seems like it lost some finer details. It's not just a trick of the light or the way the camera photographs it. It's just how it seems to look.

I got that... just that there isn't one for EATPM lol

I see the Star Trek on the main site but not able to buy yet. I might have found a machine to do a restore too. Any idea on time frame for star trek with the mod for the lighting of the nacelles. Love the art work on it. I am still working on my Xenon playfield swap parts list and then If I get the star trek it will be next.

I see pictures of a Power Play bobby Orr. I need to get on that list. I also would need a back glass as well since mine has seen better days. I would love to make this machine tip top. I love hockey play hockey and Orr when he was a Bruin was the best defense-man. I also love the game play of it.