(Topic ID: 292014)

CPR Gold or NOS for EBD if you could pick?

By jgelman

6 months ago


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  • 83 posts
  • 25 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 6 months ago by vid1900
  • Topic is favorited by 2 Pinsiders

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There are 83 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
#1 6 months ago

Hello. This is my first post on this forum. I have previously posted on rec.games.pinball in the past. Current games are Funhouse, 6MDM, HUO Aquarius, KOD, Buckaroo, Kings and Queens, and Flip a Card. I have not made any changes to the lineup in years, but thinking about an EBD. For those who know Sam Harvey, I just talked to him this week, and I hope to visit him soon. I see some posts about him. Great guy!

Anyhow, my EBD interest would be a primo collector quality machine as a keeper. I was thinking about 2 options. One has an NOS playfield and the other a CPR Gold. I have searched the forum for comparisons, and perhaps I am just not seeing it. For the NOS, there is appeal in it being original, and my first thought was that would be the best playfield. However, that is still a playfield that was created 30 years ago, and even if not used, it may not have the vibrant colors and durability of a newly manufactured playfield. Just curious what others think.

#2 6 months ago

Well in terms of playability, I will always take a HUO original game.
But that means the game didn’t go through a rotisserie/swap. It’s just straight from the manufacture.
This would be my first choice.

Now if you’re talking about swapping a trashed playfield for an original nos or a cpr Gold?
Well, that’s a tough one.
For example, I have a Dolly with a NOS playfield that I had clear coated first and then installed. Their is no CPR or Mirco playfield for a Dolly currently.

CPR gold playfields are gorgeous. I have many games with cpr playfields and they ALREADY come professionally cleared.

In the end, either choice is very very good. IMHO.

#3 6 months ago

By the way, I’ve owned an EBD with a CPR gold playfield installed.
It looked........amazing.

#4 6 months ago

You would need to get that NOS field clearcoated and possibly have any inserts that have sunken over the years corrected before using it. You could get by with a playfield protector if you didn't want to go the clearcoat route. The CPR playfields are nice, but not without issues ranging from different colors from original to incorrect dimples, missing holes etc.

#5 6 months ago

"Well in terms of playability, I will always take a HUO original game"

Maybe except for my HUO Aquarius at this time, my most valued game as that is the one I played as a kid, and seeing one by chance in an antique store is what got me interested in owning pinball machines. My Aquarius now has some pretty impressive cupping of all of the numbered inserts. None of my other machines are quite this way. This is bad for gameplay. That will need to be fixed. I see there are threads on that issue and a variety of options for a fix.

Anyhow, my Aquarius issue is what is what is making me think NOS may not necessarily be better than an excellent repro.

Cupping (resized).jpeg
#6 6 months ago

I would do a restored and cleared NOS personally, even if it cost a bit more than the CPR. I always think of the CPRs as a last resort.

#7 6 months ago
Quoted from Xenon75:

You would need to get that NOS field clearcoated and possibly have any inserts that have sunken over the years corrected before using it.

Clearcoating is nice but isn't a necessity, he could play the NOS as is. I've been doing that with the NOS I put in my EBD 20+ years ago and it has held up fine in home use, zero insert cupping (maybe I got lucky) and only a couple of inserts with a wisp of wear at the very outside edge of the black ring around them but that's it. I would make sure it isn't warped at all too, the thing is 40 years old now. But if the inserts are sunken that's another story. And If the NOS's artwork is visibly faded, nothing's going to fix that. Who knows how the thing was stored all that time.
I never had any of my games clearcoated but if I did it would be in conjunction with a restoration where you're fixing a lot things like cupped inserts or repainting worn artwork. I got one of Wade's Fast Draw playfields which are coated similar to original and not clearcoated and I'm going to put it in as is too so I suppose I'm an originalist even when it comes to repros.

#8 6 months ago

I have a cleared NOS and it’s great. I think it will be up to which is best for you.

I would be fine with either.

IMO, EBD is the best of the Bally Class of ‘81

#9 6 months ago

IMHO, Illinois Pinball did the last repo EBD playfield that was close to the OEM.
CPR likes to use their own color choices...

#10 6 months ago

<<However, that (NOS) is still a playfield that was created 30 years ago, and even if not used>>

So want to make sure, are you talking two different machines with these two playfields already installed in them, or you are deciding which blank pf you would want to put into one machine?

#11 6 months ago

I am talking about 2 restored machines. 1 was restored with an NOS playfield (I do not think it was clear coated) and the other was restored with a CPR Gold.

#12 6 months ago

I've had two restored games with new CPR playfields and they were both excellent. And then, I had a restored pin with an NOS playfield. When I took delivery of the NOS pin, it was quickly evident almost all the inserts were concave / dished out (not apparent in pictures).

Assuming the NOS you're considering doesn't have 30year old issues (dried, sunken or dished inserts) - then I'd go with whichever one has the better overall restore / parts & boards.

#13 6 months ago

also, you may want to double check the CPR pf. If should have the reflective sticker (topside under the apron) and the ink stamp that says GOLD (underside).
There have definitely been "other versions" of CPR EBD pf's out there. I've personally seen one.

Don't want to cause alarm, but if your paying for a gold..

#14 6 months ago

Didn't Illinois Pinball also do a run of EBD PFs about 20 years ago??

#15 6 months ago

When I put my NOS pf in, that's all there WAS back then. Clearcoating probably wasn't very advanced back then either so I think I'm glad I left it alone. Now I think I'd go for the CPR one if it doesn't have any anything visually objectionable to you... no worries about future wear or clearcoating or fixing the cupping if there is any. And how many plays does the NOS one have on it, that's a factor. You'd have to see it in person or maybe have backlit pics taken with a straightedge running across the inserts to know for sure.

#16 6 months ago
Quoted from AUKraut:

Did Illinois Pinball also do a run of EBD PFs about 20 years ago??

Yes!

#17 6 months ago
Quoted from AUKraut:

Didn't Illinois Pinball also do a run of EBD PFs about 20 years ago??

Yep, I thought I remembered that, so even that NOS one mentioned by the OP may not be original Bally NOS......

#18 6 months ago

It's a bummer that NOS playfields and backglasses are like a lot of other NOS parts, like say rubber seals for a car window. The older the part is, the 'O' gets bigger and bigger but the 'N' gets smaller and smaller.

#19 6 months ago

Tough call. Many NOS PF's weren't installed for a reason and I've owned my share. Usually either ink flaws, chips in the edges or missing or mis-drilled holes. Had a Xenon missing the holes for one light by both slings.

CPR's are nice although the last couple I swapped I had them cleared again. Inserts could be felt under the clear. A recent FG actually cracked the clear around an insert. Still they are great and mostly available.

My personal choice would be a NOS, inserts corrected if needed, then cleared. But the supply has dwindled, so not much of an option as it was 20 years ago.

#20 6 months ago

I just got a pic from a friend doing an EBD swap with a CPR, although I don’t know which level. I compared the pic to the same area of an NOS and quickly noticed the difference.

Colors details and registration on the NOS are spot on, not to mention an extra unwanted hole in CPR. Look at the girl’s hand, the pool cue and the registration around the drop openings. Pic 1 is NOS, pic 2 CPR
CAE44532-246A-4071-812D-26610D1FBFC5 (resized).jpeg
DC01E907-B3EB-4E99-845C-801F09226734 (resized).jpeg

#21 6 months ago

'Sup with that extra hole? Looks too small to be a dimple or pre-drilled. But sure looks like a hole, not just a chip. Maybe the hole was in the wood when they screened it and it chipped afterwards?

#22 6 months ago

NOS for sure. Everything would be as expected. Maybe have a pro clear it for ya too.

#23 6 months ago

CPR for sure.

#24 6 months ago
Quoted from PNBLWZD:

Pic 1 is NOS, pic 2 CPR

"pic 1 NOS" = correct base off white/cream.
"pic 2 CPR" = their pic of base color, snow white.

#25 6 months ago
Quoted from vec-tor:

"pic 1 NOS" = correct base off white/cream.
"pic 2 CPR" = their pic of base color, snow white.

Stands out the most with the girl's hand, looks like she's wearing pure white gloves. They should be the cream color. Not flesh colored (though it almost looks like that in the NOS pic above), but not pure white. On my NOS the difference between the white and the off-white is there, but doesn't exactly jump out at you.

#26 6 months ago

Another side note:
the screens should be compensated for the inks pressure on the playfield...
1/64 or smaller... the inks spread when printed.

#27 6 months ago
Quoted from vec-tor:

"pic 1 NOS" = correct base off white/cream.
"pic 2 CPR" = their pic of base color, snow white.

The only playfields printed in off-white were the reproductions Gene printed from IPB

The factory printed them in pure white 40 years ago.

Now that the original films are available, the pantone colors are stated on each layer

#28 6 months ago
Quoted from vid1900:

The factory printed them in pure white 40 years ago.

EBD, Frontier, Space Invaders are the only Bally's of that electronic period that
have the cream white playfields. I have two NOS EBD from two time periods of the 1980's
along with a NOS Centaur that was bought at the same time.
Centaur is still white, EBD is still cream. Or as Bally told me, back in the day,
the "Whitest shade of gold".

#29 6 months ago
Quoted from vid1900:

The only playfields printed in off-white were the reproductions Gene printed from IPB
The factory printed them in pure white 40 years ago.
Now that the original films are available, the pantone colors are stated on each layer

We've been back and forth on this in the EBD thread.

I have an EBD-LE with an original playfield (I've owned it since 1984) and it is the cream-colored one.

I believe that there were original playfields printed in white and also original playfields printed in cream.

This is why you get owners saying the originals were white, and others saying they were cream.

#30 6 months ago
Quoted from mbeardsley:

We've been back and forth on this in the EBD thread.
I have an EBD-LE with an original playfield (I've owned it since 1984) and it is the cream-colored one.
I believe that there were original playfields printed in white and also original playfields printed in cream.
This is why you get owners saying the originals were white, and others saying they were cream.

My Flash Gordon is a light cream color not white, you can clearly see it under the posts and brackets.

Trust me I have given it a lot of thought when I do touch up, cream or pure white?

#31 6 months ago
Quoted from vid1900:

The only playfields printed in off-white were the reproductions Gene printed from IPB
The factory printed them in pure white 40 years ago.
Now that the original films are available, the pantone colors are stated on each layer

Which a certain vendor has admitted discrepancies when pressed.

It is what it is, there are not much in the way of options available.

#32 6 months ago
Quoted from mbeardsley:

I believe that there were original playfields printed in white

I would love to see an OEM EBD white playfield.
Do you have contact with anybody that still has an EBD production that has a verified
untouched white playfield?
Back in the day, I was doing EBD playfield swaps almost two to three times a year.
On the west coast, factory EBD playfields were all cream color. I have never seen
an EBD in 1980 that was manufactured with a white playfield.

#33 6 months ago
Quoted from A_Bord:

I would do a restored and cleared NOS personally, even if it cost a bit more than the CPR. I always think of the CPRs as a last resort.

I would agree. Nice avatar BTW - The Thin Man right?

#34 6 months ago

NOS all day.

#35 6 months ago
Quoted from vec-tor:

I would love to see an OEM EBD white playfield.
Do you have contact with anybody that still has an EBD production that has a verified
untouched white playfield?
Back in the day, I was doing EBD playfield swaps almost two to three times a year.
On the west coast, factory EBD playfields were all cream color. I have never seen
an EBD in 1980 that was manufactured with a white playfield.

I don't personally know of any, but there was a bunch of discussion about this in the EBD owner's thread a while ago.

Like vid1900 claimed above, some stated that their "original" EBD playfields were white, and others were saying, "no, originals were cream".

All I know is that my original was cream.

#36 6 months ago

Personally, I would want to see them both in person before making a decision. If you already have the pin and are replacing the playfield then there are problems with either direction. For me, I'd prefer the CPR Gold route and deal with those potential issues rather than deal with all the problems that go along with a 40 year old playfield that has never been serviced. But, I buy my machines to play them. If you are a collector who is interested in the "vintage" value of a pinball machine, then I suppose a NOS playfield seems like it would be more valuable. It sounds like you are simply comparing two pins that are both already in great playable condition. If the "all-original" isn't a must have for you, then it kind of seems like sixes to me. All other things being equal, I'd probably go for the CPR Gold option. I have only ever had one of those, but it was awesome. Good Luck!

#37 6 months ago
Quoted from mbeardsley:

All I know is that my original was cream.

So is mine... and my NOS spare playfield.

#38 6 months ago
Quoted from Silverstock:

All other things being equal, I'd probably go for the CPR Gold option. I have only ever had one of those, but it was awesome. Good Luck!

I could be wrong but with the new CPR digital print model the playfields are no longer graded. I can confirm the playfield I just obtained from Flash Gordon has no grading marks on it.

My Star Trek with an older playfield does.

#39 6 months ago

Believe what you want about any of those NOS playfields.

Whenever I have sanded them for touch up, they appear to be White beneath any yellowed surface.

If the base color was cream, that would affect the color rendition of all colors above it. That is why pure white has to be the first color applied to ANY playfield.

Show me any original film, from any pin, that has a pantone cream color specified for the white layer - I'll wait.

Guess which one of these playfields is Gene's goofy "cream" ....

cpr vs ipb (resized).jpg
#40 6 months ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Believe what you want about any of those NOS playfields.
Whenever I have sanded them for touch up, they appear to be White beneath any yellowed surface.
If the base color was cream, that would affect the color rendition of all colors above it. That is why pure white has to be the first color applied to ANY playfield.
Show me any original film, from any pin, that has a pantone cream color specified for the white layer

Vid - is it possible the base was white and then cream was painted overtop of it? It would seem super odd though that there would be two distinct color runs.

#41 6 months ago

Each silkscreen is a different color layer, white going down first.

Note on the left side the exact Pantone color is specified:

dae3d8ceab8fa3e27deb5b94d576867548506bbb (resized).jpg

#42 6 months ago
Quoted from alexmogil:

Vid - is it possible the base was white and then cream was painted overtop of it? It seems super odd that there would be two different color runs.

If that were the case, there would have been a 10th film that specified a Pantone cream color #.

-
If you think about it, no pinball manufacturer would specify that the white reflective areas under the plastics would be cream. Games were already too dark. So if they wanted a cream layer anywhere on the playfield, they still would have left the reflective areas the pure white base color.

Gene's ghost continues to haunt the hobby.....lol

#43 6 months ago
Quoted from chuckwurt:

NOS for sure. Everything would be as expected. Maybe have a pro clear it for ya too.

i think they are already completed and maybe at the same location.... In which case I would go and look at both machines very carefully. My guess would be if all other things are equal. he will end up choosing the cpr if the n.o.s has not been cleared.

#44 6 months ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Believe what you want about any of those NOS playfields.
Whenever I have sanded them for touch up, they appear to be White beneath any yellowed surface.
If the base color was cream, that would affect the color rendition of all colors above it. That is why pure white has to be the first color applied to ANY playfield.
Show me any original film, from any pin, that has a pantone cream color specified for the white layer - I'll wait.
[quoted image]

Well, I can assure you that there were at least some (and I believe many) original playfields that were cream - and mine is one. It is not yellowed from time or anything and has always been the same cream color. It is the original playfield from the factory and the machine has been in my living room since 1984. I can assure you that no one has snuck in and done a secret swap with an IPB playfield.

I suspect that there were several different "original" playfield runs of EBD at Bally, considering how many machines were produced over the 3 versions. And I believe that some original playfields were white and some were cream. As to which is "right" or "better", that's a different question.

#45 6 months ago
Quoted from rcbrown316:

i think they are already completed and maybe at the same location.... In which case I would go and look at both machines very carefully. My guess would be if all other things are equal. he will end up choosing the cpr if the n.o.s has not been cleared.

I would choose CPR if someone guaranteed me that all the dimples are in the correct spots and no holes were messed up or in the wrong spots.

#46 6 months ago

In the early 2000's I restored an EBD LE. The start of a plan to provide pins after Williams closed and before Stern really started making great pins.

I bought a NOS EBD playfield. I had it clear coated by Bill Davis. Over time the artwork under the clear coat was cracking.

Mine was kind of between white and cream colored. I've run into white paints that aren't colorfast so over time they change. Age or UV light.

LTG : )

#47 6 months ago
Quoted from LTG:

Mine was kind of between white and cream colored. I've run into white paints that aren't colorfast so over time they change. Age or UV light.
LTG : )

While it is certainly possible that white can fade/yellow over time, that just isn't true in my case. The cream color I have is completely uniform, no matter whether it is in an open area or a spot way underneath the back corner.

#48 6 months ago

So when was this Gene fella making his playfields? Can they be identified by that registration grid under the apron?

#49 6 months ago
Quoted from mbeardsley:

that just isn't true in my case. The cream color I have is completely uniform, no matter whether it is in an open area or a spot way underneath the back corner.

If it's a reaction in the paint, it all changes. Not just an area.

I had an O Scale model railroad engine painted in Freedom Train colors. Over time the bright white faded to cream color, engine and tender. both sides. And it was sitting on a shelf all the time. So both sides had different exposures.

LTG : )

#50 6 months ago
Quoted from frenchmarky:

So when was this Gene fella making his playfields? Can they be identified by that registration grid under the apron?

Yes, on the right lower corner under the apron area. Here are some pictures of an original and the IPB versions.

http://www.hsapinball.com/HSA_PINBALL/hsa65ebdcompare.html

There are 83 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.

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