ANNOUNCEMENT:

This thread will chronicle the re-release of ~130 past/mothballed/unobtanium CPR repro glasses & plastics. They will come out in waves, and each wave will be announced here, as they are loaded into our web site. Waves will post every 1-2 weeks, until all ~130 legacy products are back available again. Once available, they will never go out of stock ever again.

Ever again? How? A separate announcement related to all the detail behind the new production model at CPR can be found here:

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/announce-cpr-begins-its-new-business-model

There will be no particular order to making our way through releasing these ~130 products. So if you have a past CPR backglass or plastic set, sold out for years, had been waiting for a re-run, that you really need right now, feel free to comment it here. I'll be checking here from time to time, and I will expedite release of those items, over others. I don't have a preference to order of release, so feel free to give some direction.

KEVIN
Classic Playfield Reproductions
http://www.classicplayfields.com

Just to be clear on the suggestion thing: I meant past (legacy) CPR plastics & glasses that have been gone. Not suggestions for new releases.

Of course, I know many today don't know CPR's past history of the exact ~130 plastics & glasses we did all the way back to 2004... but many do. I appreciate all the new ideas for stuff, but that wasn't what we're looking for. I'm trying to allow folks to influence the order I release the ~130 legacy glasses and plastics. That's all. Playfields come later, once we've set up that process. Hope this is clearer.

I've noted all the correctly suggested legacy items above, and will be expediting those to the next wave.

Thanks.

KEVIN
Classic Playfield Reproductions
http://www.classicplayfields.com

Depends on what is a "mistake". Thank you for the photos. This is the first time since 2007 *anyone* has debated the face colors on our BR glasses. From 2007-2008, our run of 150 glasses (or so) all sold to 150 different individuals, and not one said anything about the faces being a mistake.

Reason being, WE never considered it a mistake either. Working off an existing original glass, from a donor, the layout was made to mimic refreshed colors, and those were screened at the time. I still have some old photos (albeit not great) from the BR backglass photo gallery that was posted at that time on our site. (attached below) That original glass is long gone, given back to the donor... but the pix will show you what we were dealing with. I assure you, the faces were all off-white cream... same tone as the checkerboard patterns right next to them. There wasn't a hint of fleshtone. Seeing your pic is a huge and amazing difference to the original we had. Huge. As in completely different. Our main concern at the time was restoring the colorshifted teals back to greens.

Seeing yours, I like the fleshtone better (of course) and I will personally make the change to the master file. But now I'm wondering why 150 people didn't speak up back in 2007-2008 ? You'd think if the white faces were that off, then 2, 5, 10 people might speak up. At least. It boggles me.

Anyway, this is what feedback is for. I like the fleshtone better. If it was original (at least on yours, but definitely not the one we had) then it's more than enough justification to change it to a better look... and we won't have to defend the change.

Thanks for bringing it forward.

banzaiglass09.jpg
banzaiglass06.jpg

That was late 2006, dude. This was our third project, after Centaur playfields (from original films, 2004) and Black Knight playfields (from the immaculate vectored overlay films, 2005-2006). This was our very first attempt at original redrawn artwork, without original films. These sold thru 2007-2008, timeframe.

The blackline was lifted one-generation from an original... not vectored. It's 400dpi bitmap onto film, printed through 200 mesh (100 lines per inch). With all of the ink gain, blobbery, and mesh serration commonplace to wet screen presses - that is what you end up dealing with. A ton of learning has happened in 12 years since. The battle to minimize all of those gremlins. All the color layers after the blackline were vector.

2006 also saw Flight 2000 and Centaur plastics using similar redraw art packages. It wasn't until Xenon playfields in 2007 that a 100% vectored art package (blackline and all) was used for the first time. After that, pretty much every blackline was vector. But we've seen it all - including several projects from rubylith films.

The scale of this stuff is not meant to be photographed at 3 inches away... even the original has it's shortcomings - and they had the original films. I'd say their screen mesh was likely a little finer - like 230 or 280 mesh. But you can still see the silk serrations on the original edges too. They're just smaller.

On both, neither is visible at 2-3 feet (arms length). Edges appear identical.

Regardless, the new prints today in 2018 are exactly on par with original crispness. Fleshtone has been added in, too.

Which JP set? The previous run of silkscreened sets that sold out? Or the sets going forward, from the digital press?

The target blue on JP plastics is Pantone 2935C, as read off an NOS set that was never in a game.

On the screened sets, due to the ink density, the blue was laid with backlighting (gamma) inferred into the ink mix. You have to illuminate (backlight) the plastics to achieve the intended 2935C result. All of the colors, really. They look "darker" when just in normal omnidirectional room light, seen from the front. Had it not been done this way, the final blue, backlit in the game, would have looked weaker and 'washed out'.

On the digital sets, the ink is more concise and less dense than silkscreen ink. The color is hit, and the digital inks retain themselves well with backlighting, essentially the look of 2935C - lit or unlit. Barely any gamma was inferred in the blue color mix. We also slightly "bumped up" a few of the other colors on the digital set, which were somewhat underwhelming. Even on the NOS set. Namely the brown and lavender.

blues.jpg

For any of our past playfields (ie. we have the artwork) that is possible. With few exceptions. We'll be offering that alongside new "Made For You" playfields, as a cheaper option.

Black Knight IS an exception, however - because those were silkscreened by us back in 2007/2008 with a fantastic film set from the guy who paid Marti Sperling to make the film set so he could produce silkscreened BK overlays in 2002-2003 era. He sold oodles of them. We made a deal for the films at the time, to borrow them for a couple months, and he received compensation for supplying the artwork. The films have long been shipped back to the guy.

Even if we were to get the films back, they offer nothing to the digital suite. So BK will be a redraw mission for 2019 to replace the artwork here. Other than that, we have all the original cut programming, inserts, dimple beds, etc, still on hand. Just gotta solve that artwork issue, since silkscreening batched re-runs is no longer our path here.

Yes, there has been a swamping. Everything people are ordering is created almost immediately. For plastics, it's the lineup at the laser CNC that is proving to be the bottleneck, during the swamping. Regardless, we're buying a new laser CNC at 3X the power of the old one, so we're going to third our cutting times shortly anyway. It had to happen, swamping or not. So we're backed up a couple days on the laser. Once they're off the laser, they go into your shipment.

Yes, you get both a PayPal and UPS confirmation email upon label creation & dispatch.

Yes, the last 14 years have been that clunky manual-pay methodology. Frankly, it worked flawlessly for tens of thousands of transactions over the years. But people in today's day and age expect a proper Cart and Checkout system - which is why the new web site will feature it (already programmed and included) that comes out in a few weeks.

SBM, among the other remaining glasses offline, are all mirrored... We've got a ton of footwork to get done to make them possible under the "on demand" model... meaning we have to screen glass blanks with all the mirror designs, so they are ready for finishing, on demand. So we have to prepare a whole selection of dedicated screens (that will never be reclaimed or stripped) of each mirror design Forming a library of screens. Then we'll pre-silkscreen a library of glass panels with the mirror ink designs for each backglass (say, 5-10 of each). Then upon anybody ordering one, we'll finish up the glass in the digital suite so it can ship out that day, or the next day.

We won't put up the mirrored glass(es) until all these ducks are in a row, so we're ready to roll.

As each selection of mirrored panels depletes, we just screen a small batch more, by using the dedicated screen on hand, which is always ready to go.

This will be the systemic compromise to do "on demand" "one-off" mirrored backglasses. Kind of a hybrid of the old model, and the new model. At least now we don't have to throw ourselves into 100 panels, one design, and 8-12 colors... to produce (1) title / run. We just have to set up silkscreening for ONE color (mirror ink) and only do a little batch of panels. Huge difference.

We'll get mirrored glasses, like SBM, rolling as soon as we get all this worked out. Working on getting all those legacy plastics sets out first.

KEVIN
Classic Playfield Reproductions
http://www.classicplayfields.com

Staggeringly more accurate. As in, a near-perfect match.

The main problem before was that we were at the mercy of the film lab, and silkscreening results were fixed (you "get what you get"). Zero control beyond trying to make the color curve in the file given to the lab, as best as you can, knowing how previous runs looked using the same ink set.

FYI The process was basically this:

NOS Glass (150 lpi) -> RGB Cruze Scan -> CMYK conversion -> CMYK file to film lab -> lab splits to CMYK films @ 79 lpi -> films burned to screens -> Black silkscreened -> dry time -> Magenta silkscreened -> dry time -> Cyan silkscreened -> dry time -> Yellow silkscreened -> dry time -> White silkscreened (now you can finally see your resulting image) -> dry time -> Lightblock backside silkscreened -> dry time. Done.

However that resulting glass run looked, is what we sold. There was no going back to change anything in the process. There was no way.

The density of the inks were always in the algorithm for the films being done at the lab, so unlit repro glasses looked oversaturate and "darker" - to compensate for the final look when backlit. Otherwise, an unlit glass looking "right" meant once the lights come on, it looks slightly washed out. So gamma was always part of the lab's color curves, when the films were made. It was a necessary evil. That is why what you call "saturation issues" wasn't really an "issue" at all... it was a reality to prevent washout of the backlit final destiny of the glasses.

79 lpi also (at close range) looked quite "sandy" with all the dots the artwork was made up of. Around half the resolution of NOS (~150 lpi). I won't get into the technicals of why new films made from a 150lpi artwork cannot be made into new 150lpi films... but let's just say, it cannot be done.

Beyond that, the resulting image, whether appearing magenta-heavy, or cyan-heavy, or whatever... was final. We got what we got. And you didn't KNOW what you've got until you see the layers sitting on top of each other, on glass, with white screened behind it...

So now, the process gets as direct as this:

NOS glass -> RGB Cruze scan -> digital print to new glass (300 to 600 lpi).

I'm leaving out the work on the scan itself, to perfect it and stuff... redrawing window frames, fonts, etc. But you can see how "direct" the process is. PLUS - we can test the resulting art package immediately. Print one! Look at it. If anything is to be changed, make the changes... print another one. Boom. Everything happens in hours/minutes, rather than a week doing 7-12 silkscreening sessions, of 100+ panels, just to see the final results.

Plus, dots so tiny (microns) that they are just as invisible as on an NOS glass.

Density of the digital inks is so much better, that a digital CPR glass may look only 2-5% "darker/saturate" as opposed to 15-20% on the silkscreened variety - which people noticed bigtime. So the "necessary evil" for backlighting integrity has been greatly reduced, and almost completely unapparent.

KEVIN
Classic Playfield Reproductions
http://www.classicplayfields.com

That is correct. Although "new" glass titles we've never run before (due to being scared not enough would sell) are going to come out eventually too. It was sad sitting on finished glass artwork all these years, with the worry that only a dozen would sell... so we just never ran them. Those will finally have their day to take their chance in the open market. If one sells, fine. If 20 sell, fine. The market can decide. At least they will finally be available. We're not tied to doing a run of 100 at a time anymore.

Yes, we were thinking on doing that once each mirrored glass comes out. Offer the mirrored version, then a discounted non-mirror version. Again, let the market decide.

Mirrored isn't going to be charged more. We're going to maintain our traditional prices. But the non-mirrored version can be price-CUT, for exactly the budget reasons you cited. We can do the mirror layer in some kind of grey. We're working on it.

Yes. It's coming out in the next couple months.

It's always in-house vector-redrawn artwork. That applies to everything that was spot-color (blackline with multiple solid color fills). We never just printed scans. Ever.

In the case of the "oil painting" or "watercolor" original artwork - like on some of the backglasses - then yes, we are going back to our original NOS RGB scans and rebuilding new 2018 files, so we avoid the CMYK conversions and lab linescreening that had to be done to make silkscreen film sets for our past repro runs. Which due to technical reasons, had to be half the resolution of NOS, at best. Now those glasses, from this point forward, will be as detailed and sharp (and color-correct) as we can possibly do. Almost indistinguishable from an original NOS.

Yes. You got it. The best that a repro of a Medusa glass is ever going to get. (Without going back in time and doing it using the exact original methods, and from original negatives).

Just so it's clear for everybody, this was due to the recent swamping since launch. Our laser CNC has been severely backed up with cuts to do, for the plastics. Once things settle down to a stasis, we'll be back to the target 24-hour turnaround for order-to-shipping. That's the goal. Thx.

I'm loving the guesses. So I was hoping for more people to guess. I'm trying to prove a point, basically - that put up next to silkscreening, results are so close that it doesn't even matter anymore. Nobody can pick out which is which, under normal conditions. I don't mean intentional hunting analysis at 4 inches away, I mean normal observational conditions with zero motives to seek tiny differences.

Any more guesses? A comment about "why" you believe your guess is correct, is also handy as well.

A great idea. It's just we don't have any artwork for Sorcerer plastics. Never have, for some reason. We need to remedy that. Anybody have an old set pulled from a machine they can loan? We'll return then AND replace them for free with a new repro set, once the work is done.

The stuff will be bang-on, but not 100% indistinguishable (say, a side-by-side forensic analysis with the motive to identify differences from 6 inches away). My earlier comment on nearly-indistinguishable refers especially to the "oil painting" or "watercolor" backglasses - which in our past were "OK" , but lacking in many areas due to the constraints of the dot-based silkscreening methodology for full-color backglasses (non-spot). Our digital releases will be a vast improvement over the past, for those glasses. As close to NOS as anybody is going to get, without going back to original processes in a time machine, with original negatives.

I don't entirely know what this means, forgive me. Dilution (in my mind of basic economics) would come with flooding out huge amounts of supply, and there's so much stuff, it's almost moot and worthless. Our model is the complete opposite of that. We wanted to end all this sitting unsold stock, which was the general outcome of doing "runs". Going forward, unless it gets ordered, it doesn't exist. We make on-demand. That means the population of each pinball part, going forward, from CPR, is exactly matched to the demand produced by the hobby. Glove fit.

That is why WE take care of the distinguishing. My eyes. Our eyes. So it passes muster here, and the gatekeeper of what goes out from here will be me. Those who don't have the eye, won't need the eye - because I won't be shipping them anything that falls back into those past histories of "crap". After 14 years silkscreening everything we made here, I have let go of the romance of spot color silkscreening. The current tech kicked me in the butt. Things had changed so much in the last 3-5 years, that I had to concede. Reality trumped romantic voodoo. Either it looks great, or it doesn't. The process to create the final imagery need not be romanced over. Not anymore. Once the tech reached the acceptable level of solidity, thick density of the ink, scratch resistance, and non-banding... that was it. It wins. It wins enough that it justifies proudly bringing back 130+ legacy products that would otherwise have remained mothballed forever. Because we weren't ever again going to do a silkscreen run to sell 12 copies, and it go dead... after making 100.

Good questions. We might as well get these topics covered, now.

Make contact once you see Space Invaders in "The Pipe" at our site, showing "CNC Cutting Now"

odyssey2.jpg

The one on the left is the silkscreened one, from the ~2011 run. Some of it's colors are slightly off from the Pantone book, which comes from the individual ink mixing. The one on the right is the digital print, and has some color refining to bring some of the tones back in line with the exact Pantone shades. The digital print is the more accurate-to-original-intended-colors look.

I can, the next time somebody orders a Space Odyssey backglass. I will. The one in the picture has long been shipped to it's customer.

You are correct. But the green won't be true hot fluorescent green going forward. That will be the compromise.

Yes, that invisible piece was missed, and as shown for years on our site (gallery and thumbnail) is not included in the set. Was never created as part of the repro artwork from the start. Everybody keeps and uses the existing one already there. After hundreds of sets, thinking they are all complete, there's always one that nixxes you, and discover the original set donor actually missed a piece during the stripdown. It ended up never being crucial enough to remedy, due to the logistics of the piece. Of course, now with digital, we can merge it onto future sets without having to scuttle hundreds of silkscreened sheets, like in the old days to make one little change. But somebody needs to get me a scan of that piece.

Yes. All CPR backglasses all the way back to our start in 2004 will be made available again, with few exceptions due to territory of Shay, etc. We have even decided to take the suggestion of some in the hobby, to offer BOTH ink-mirrored and non-mirrored (or "fake" mirrored) versions at a cheaper price.

Yes, the Creech speaker panel is coming back. WITH the car tail lights transparent, with lightblock layering, so LED backlighting kit(s) can be used.

Yes, they would be included. I need to make that clearer on the site (pardon the pun). Thanks for the heads up.

Yes, it would be an isolated incident. The laser CNC has been overworked with the new floods of plastics re-releases, and we've found that on recent hot periods here in the Canadian summer, it's slower speed settings have been "cooking" the edge/ink in small places to the paper backing adhesive - depending on where the flashpoints were on the cutting table honeycomb. We do have a new laser CNC on it's way, will be here in about a month. Will cut 3X faster, and retire our original laser setup from 2007.

These are small parts we abandoned many years ago, because they were something we were not in the position to be selling. It would be like CPR selling bulbs - individually or in bundles, from Canada. We were too far away, and shipping was relatively too high, to be buying those little things from here. We always had that frustrating "must ship with a plastics set, playfield, or backglass shipment" rule. We ended up turning over the whole Coin Door Inserts distribution to Marco Specialties.

We realize they are low and/or sold out right now. Silkscreen re-runs were (of course) holding back viability for years now. Since the new platform here, MarcoSpec has been in talks with us to redux and restock a whole selection of the popular coin door inserts. So they WILL be coming back. It's just a matter of time.

Small parts and accessories have not typically been a CPR thing, sorry. Similar story to the Coin Door Inserts, above. Parts distributors are out there, and we're not going to get into their lane. We're more in a manufacturer role, dealing with our "big three" (playfields, plastics, and glasses), who happens to direct-sell to the end users (plus some distributors too). Trim might be a good idea, although I don't have the first clue who manufactures it, so we could get supplied.

No, this current backglass offering is not for the "Classic" machine with the swingout backbox design. It's the normal Bally glass size (28.5" x 25.75"), and meant for the 1981 "original EBD" machine.

That being said, there is absolutely no reason the "Classic" cannot have it's version done here now - since the artwork is workable to a smaller panel, and we're no longer stuck silkscreening a huge batch, like in the past. If you, or somebody, could PM me with confirmed measurements of the "Classic" (swing-out) glass panel size, then we can offer the smaller version available very soon. So there will be both versions after that. I suspect the panel size will be the same as Fireball Classic, which we already have blanks for, right now. But I'll need confirmation. I'll also need a good straight-on photo of the backside, to confirm locations of "Tilt" "Ball in Play" "Match" etc ... Anybody?

KEVIN
Classic Playfield Reproductions
http://www.classicplayfields.com

No, not at all like that. It would be the design like we did years ago - which paired with LED/animation kits that were made at the time (sold by other vendors). The car tail lights, moon, and theater sign are printed translucent, with a backglass-like rear lightblock layer to mask the rest of the panel dark. With specifically-placed (and often electronically driven) LEDs, you get a "living scene" on your speaker panel that is absolutely amazing.

We only produce the speaker panel - not the electronics. CPR was always the one the modders leaned on for years to make the panels happen, so the lighting behind it was taken care of others (even individuals who did their own).

Here is a YouTube video showing the final look:

Yes, they can be added to the existing set as another pair of pieces. As long as everyone is willing to accept existing art for those pieces, newly cropped at the front, "Try" added on the left piece, and laser cut with a new front (clear) edge further back (no overhang over the targets).

Will need some time to work on it, but it can come available in the next couple weeks. The entry in the Store will simply update.

Guys,

This was just brought to my attention tonight by my partner Mike, who got wind of this thread...and went to find Jakusu's emails.

The customer placed an order during our 12 days away (Aug 20-Sep1) basically 'closed for shipping, but orders can be made' on our site (which was the departure of me and a few others from the production shop, leaving only one guy behind who was strictly working on Elvira playfields). Upon return, there was a ton of orders to contend with, and we attacked them all as we could.

This customer's order involved a Skateball (Silver graded) playfield and a slew of other stuff... but the stickler ended up being the Skateball playfield. We got caught with our pants down, because I didn't have a clearcoated Silver one ready-go. Had several Bronze, but that's no good. So thinking I could get one thru our clearcoater in a week or so, I tried. It was the only item holding the order up, and I couldn't "spilt" the order (as we normally would) because the customer was in Australia. There was going to be only one crack at this shipment. It all had to go together.

Meanwhile, the customer was later trying to contact us for questions. During our time away, Mike, our web programmer, and the guys at the woodshop site were still open and operating. They performed the new website and email switchover, which included a complete host switch, as well as email provider (which was now a separate company). My Mozilla Thunderbird was in shambles for over a week and a half after my return, remaining set up for the old web host on about 2 dozen email addresses. I hadn't even had the time or thought to go near it, as the new provider was being set up with new inboxes, and the extinction of a ton of older addresses we just weren't going to use anymore, or re-activate period. Meanwhile the web site Contact page on the new web site was feeding a brand new internal inbox that wasn't even being POPped by anybody. It was supposed to eventually be me, when ready. I later got the credentials once everything was settled, and I got into there just a couple days ago - with like 600 messages to face. Still only halfway through that. So this customer trying to be heard, was stuck in a literal 'Woodstock' of emails, being parsed a few hours a day as I could catch up. Once Mike saw this thread, he went hunting for the emails in question to get in contact ASAP.

Meanwhile, all this wait to now, the clearcoater, swamped more than I had anticipated in ongoing Elvira playfields (it's a huge run), was "getting to" the additional Skateball silvers I had among the racks. He was taking too darn long, and what I had hoped would be squeaked out in a week, without incident (small delay, no complaints), became an ongoing wait that is still ongoing today. I'm being given an estimation of a delivery of my Skateballs and a portion of the Elvira run by monday.

In the meantime, and poor Mike unknown to all of this sequence of events at my end, tonight he just gave Jakusu back all his money. Wasn't Jakusu's fault, of course. Jakusu can hold his money in HIS hands during the remaining wait, and will decide if and/or when he wants to invoke the same order again someday.

All the other items in his order were sitting here, ready to go.

Anyway, this was a matter of pushing through disarray and mess, timing, and inherent non-communication (which is the worst for a customer). One of those lovely "perfect storms" of so much going on and so many fast changes at once, that looking back in week(s) to come, it will seem like a haze of weird times. You never want it to snowball into something a customer notices... but this one did for Jakusu.

Sorry on this one, Jakusu.

KEVIN
Classic Playfield Reproductions
http://www.classicplayfields.com

You know what? There is certainly a nugget of truth in that. No question. I say the same thing myself !

When any of us leave, especially when we try to do a bunch of us at the same time, it's just a fact that the world keeps on turning while we're away. Thus we return to a mountain of unfinished tasks and demands, stacked to the virtual rafters. I'm sure many a folk feel this when coming back to work from time away, especially when in a biz that is small enough that there are absolutely no 'substitute teachers' while you are gone. That week or two of work you would have done had you never left, STILL creates itself and exists when you get back... on top of the new work that continues upon your return home.

https://classicplayfields.com/shop/pinball-backglasses/taxi-2/

LATEST WAVE OF CPR PLASTICS RELEASES Coming out of the 2004-2017 Mothballs....

All available and shipping now:

- PHARAOH
- PHANTOM OF THE OPERA
- ORBITOR 1
- LOST WORLD
- BACK TO THE FUTURE
- VECTOR
- SPACE SHUTTLE
- GUNS N ROSES
- POLICE FORCE
- BAD CATS
- GORGAR

Everything found in the Store at our web site.

KEVIN
Classic Playfield Reproductions
http://www.classicplayfields.com

Yes, the artwork just finished, and we're putting them up for orders now. We have no idea how many people are going to want/need them, as it's not a wear-n-tear part. So we'll take orders for a bit, then produce them all in a batch. Then after that, stock a few at all times so they are always available.

Planetary Pinball takes care of these, having them run in Chicago, because the original plastics artwork from the "late years" before the factory shutdowns still resides at the original plastics maker. So they don't need to be covered by any repro parts maker. Same goes for several other sets from that era like MM and TAF.

Mike asked me to pop by, as this Medusa Plastics question is new to him and me. I handle all the plastics, so it's my purview. I guess it all depends on what "up to snuff" means. (???) Never heard otherwise since 2009 (when we started making them). So I'll answer best I can.

We've run and re-run Medusa plastics a couple times over the last decade. They were runs of silkscreened plastics. Enamel colors (inks), with white enamel backing. Spot colors. Same as every other plastics we ever did. Same as how originals were made.

Why they allegedly wouldn't let light through, or appear dark, is a first hearing this for me. Hundreds of sets have gone out (especially during the Medusa repro playfield days). No reports. I'm hoping people remembered to peel off the thick white paper mask on the backs.

So I guess my best answer, since all of those silkscreened legacy sets are gone and sold out, is that since fall 2018, the Medusa plastics are the digital variety. I've held them up to light and they seem fine to me. Again, just like all the other designs. Same process now. I guess I'd say go for them, and if you don't like them, then we do offer a complete refund if one wants to return them. Beyond that, I don't know what else to say about them. All seems normal here.