I think they offer to provide photos of bronze playfields since the defects can vary. The defects also depend upon the specific title. For instance, there was an issue with the text on an insert for TOTAN.

The same thing you'll get when you buy a gold. So buy the bronze since its cheaper and send it to Kruzman to fix it correctly and to clear it to of course. You'll be doing it no matter which one you buy, at least from my experience that is.

John P. Dayhuff
Battle Creek, MI.
269-979-3836

http://www.classicplayfields.com/standards.html

CPR Bronze Grade Playfields - As-Photographed

Our Bronze Grade candidates are set aside for not achieving the level of our Silver Standard. These playfields will have issues that are more obvious, unique, and thus will vary individually from playfield to playfield. Therefore, by customer request, we will photograph and sell each playfield individually so you can be the judge. In the photo(s), we will show you why we feel the playfield is of Bronze Grade quality. For some customers, they won’t care, because these candidates will almost always be vastly better than ANY playfield your are likely to encounter in a 20-30 year old game. Bronze playfields will also be frequently available at the Starship Fantasy show tables, and are always a great option for the more budget-conscious.

Every playfield he does is different. He's not exactly cheap but he's the best in the hobby by far.

John P. Dayhuff
Battle Creek, Mi.
269-979-3836

If you are happy with the cpr clearcoat after it sits for 6 months, then you dont need me. if not, drop me a line. But definatly let it sit 6 months so you can watch it before it is installed and too late. My process is 550 which includes sealing the back with 3 coats of polyurethane. also I sand the last coat level and then polish out for 6-10 hours and then clean the compound out of all of the cut outs.
80% of my business is cpr. They make a great product, but the clear is production. Most people who are investing so much time and money in to a restore want something to brag about when they are done. It wont be cleap if you want the best.
Everyone has their own opinion and standards, which is the american way!
Thanks J.D.

Hey. Ron... Does CPR tell you how long its been clear coated and sitting. ?? Or how does one tell. I have never bought a CC playfield. But have seen them at shows and am interested. THX>

I'd talk to Ron to see if he has time available for restoring an original PF- he can get very busy.

Then I'd send whatever he's able to take because it will come back flawless.

If there is wear on your original he might not even take it as its alot more work and more money, but it never hurts to ask. I have a nos Doctor Who playfeild with him, but it was never diamond plated just a really thin pre clear and the inserts are slightly raised so it is going to be more work and cost more, but man is it gonna be sweet and so worth it when its done.

I had a taxi playfield from CPR. I had the choice of all grades but opted for bronze to save money. It was significantly cheaper, I think over a $100. Postage to the uk is crippling so had to offset the cost somehow.

The playfield defects were minor. The grey areas of paint around the area of the ball lock on the right side had some tiny white streaks in it, these were also present in the area of the gorbie insert. These areas are predominantly covered by ramps etc.. So not really visible.

The inserts also have some crazing, however I think this was an inherent problem at the time and present on all grades.

These flaws were not highlighted or photographed and shown to me before purchase. It's a case of you know it will have flaws and you'll run the risk, which I was happy to do.

I'm easy going though and don't really care so suited me.

It looks fantastic all reassembled with the CPR glass, new ramps and cab decals.

Really, a bronze CPR playfield is probably much nicer than an original anyway.

Installed a bronze Strikes and Spares Playfield. The defects were very minor and once it was assembled not even noticeable. I've seen the same defects in a Gold. All in all its much better than a blown out field, their process keeps improving over the years.

Here is my "testimonial".

Most CPR bronze quality highly exceed the standards of most modern factory produced playfields.
Most certainly better than Stern Churchill playfields at the present time.
Playfields are more finely prepared with sanding.
Hardcoats are thicker and more even with layers.
Review the website, they explain the details.

Unless a person has a trained eye, familiar with playfield production, or know the game intimately, most may not notice any discrepancies.

If you have specific questions regarding a purchase of an available bronze "leftover" and its particular idiosyncrasies (each PF is unique) contact Stu or Kevin at CPR.

Since buying their products for going on 20 years (since they decided to operate the company), most of their playfields are superior except those produced by IPB.
Backglasses however, you need to be careful, based on color match, there can be issues.

I own examples of almost every playfield they have produced either first or second hand.
I continue to buy them without hesitation.
The same goes for *most* of their backglasses, but this is title specific.

Here is some more info for you. I posted my list of pf's for sale, and someone called about my FT gold. Instead of just describing it from memory of when I bought it back in may. I pulled it to inspect. I keep them aginst a wall, in my spare bedroom, verticly on their side, so they dont warp. I was really suprised when I saw what happened. Since they stack their coats all at once, it locks in uncured clear that takes a long time to dry. If I stored them the way they sit in a game I think the effect would be worse. All cpr pf's do this, that why I suggested to keep yours for 6 months to see what it would look like. I highly suggest getting the cheapest cpr pf, and if you can save money because of flaws in the clear, by all means do so.
I have never had one of their pf's clear sink this bad, but I have 5 FT gold in my shop, and I just shipped a nos. I have been waiting for the cpr's to cure, because they are doing the same thing. the inserts are sinking real bad on all of them. I sent pics to kevin, and he said I must have my air too dehumidified. The reason I sent him pics was to let him know that I have about 25 of his pf's and FT is the only one doing it this bad. I wanted to help if maybe they changed their proceedure. He assured they did not, and it was something I did. I stored the pf in a room with all of my other pf's, and this is the only title that happened this bad, though my BK is bad enough to give me a stomach ache. Before anyone makes a suggestion about humidity or anything. I know my pf's. its all I do for a living for a decade. Many many pf's go thru my studio, some fresh some old repros, some nos. Before I did this for a living, I was a finish carpenter, and one of my main hobbies was restoring and painting hot rods, tractors, and heavy equip. I have been painting and dealing with wood and clear for a long time. I try every day to think of better ways to do what I do. Not to make more money, but to have a better end result. tha being said.

I am not ripping on cpr at all. the reason I contacted Kev before I mentioned to anyone, was to help cpr, even though, I am not a fan of stu, I love cpr pf's (I love all pf's).
Its really not the wood grain that bothers me, because that seems to happen often, and Keven said it is to be expected after a couple months, its the inserts sinking. If you install as is, that will cause wear, from the ball hitting th elips of the inserts.
So some more info to help everyone. The happy ending, is the pf can be made to look better than it did when it first arrived if professionaly cleared after it has cured.

P9309012 (resized).JPG

P9309014 (resized).JPG

P9309018 (resized).JPG

Do Mirco's and Peter's playfields also exhibit these clear coat issues? Why do I always hear about CPR's clear coat being problematic? Is it the chemicals or process they use that cause these problems?

Yikes that's bad

There are a bunch of pics of this forum where the clear has lifted the paint off the playfield on AFM

Folks,

I am going to chime in, as I was told it would likely be a good idea to come here and address this quickly, before people got the wrong impression. Otherwise, the only narrative out there will be one that isn't ours.

Ron is correct, he brought this Fish Tales to my attention recently in private email. But I had no idea he'd feel the need to run to Pinside with it afterward, photos and all. But here we are. I realise his intention isn't to "rip on CPR" , and we've worked sending playfields to Ron for many years. But we DO realise he is in the aftermarket clearcoat business... so there is a slight conflict of opinion of course. As I have openly stated many times through the years on here, we feel our clearcoats are all that are needed, by far... with no additional expense after purchase. Ron is in the position that a "need" must be created for additional $300-$600 spent on our playfields, or there wouldn't be a need for the Kruzman Treatment on a CPR playfield. Which is understandable... clearcoating is the entire function of his business. So while he has continued to be a customer, and we have continued to happily sell playfields to him, we still have those two polar-opposite opinions on what a clearcoat truly needs to be. Note I'm saying needs, not "could be"... Heck, clearcoats could be made of poured molten glass, and wouldn't that be something. But hey, they'd break.

Anyway, let's get to the meat. Ron's FT (and other FT's in his shop) have somehow vertically rippled with the woodgrain direction. Not just the nominal expected vertical patina that ALWAYS appears after 3-4 months, but rather significantly (as shown in his pix). There is no denying it. He brought it right to me in email to let me know, saying it was just in case there was some issue with CPR Fish Tales playfields that I need to be aware of.

His pix were indeed stunning to me. Why? Because there WASN'T a run-wide "issue" with the CPR Fish Tales playfield run (nor the minis). It's been 6-7 months since that playfield was released, and I've not heard a peep. Plus the randomly selected Fish Tales that hangs on my office wall looks completely normal. Plus the dozen or so remaining Fish Tales playfields on the rack down at the shop are all completely normal. All of which have aged just as much as all of Ron's. Of course, Ron's are just as randomly selected from the same run - not only his own, but the ones shipped to him from customers all over.

So what is making the ones in Ron's studio behave differently? I simply didn't have a solid answer for him. I truly don't know. My only theory is his environment there... what else would make his 5-6 boards do one thing, but everybody elses' everywhere else not ? Case in point, all mine here which still haven't shipped to anybody, and look fine. Every single playfield was created identically. Ron's are a random 5-6 boards from the run... but they all ended up in the same place. It's the ONLY thing they have in common. I've racked my brain, so anybody else got any ideas? Ron knows clear, wood, and all this stuff. I basically deferred to him to somewhat explain it to ME

Ron is right when he says everything seems normal in his shop, and all other CPR playfields (except his BK from 2007) have not done this, before or since Fish Tales. So I'm completely stumped. I'm not *blaming* Ron's shop for it (as it's obvious no intentional bad handling was done to these playfields)... but I do think something different is going on that effected these playfields differently as opposed to all the remaining ones here, and I assume the mass majority (if not all) of the CPR Fish Tales out there in individual homes across the country. If I'm wrong, then please somebody speak up and reveal their significantly-rippled Fish Tales clearcoat. And I don't mean vertical woodgrain patina... I mean the chasms Ron is showing in his pictures.

Ron wasn't looking for returns, refunds, or anything. He just wanted to make me aware in case all the Fish Tales were turning into Shar-Pei's. I just don't agree that they are. I feel for Ron, but we delivered flat playfields to all his customers... and yes, easily graded as Golds before I saw them slipped into boxes and handed to UPS. It's been months later now... and here we are. I just don't know how to explain what went on with these particular boards. I repeat - I am stumped. Thankfully, Ron has them there for clearcoating and re-topping... so all of these boards will get re-shot anyway. But the existence of this happening slowly after months while just sitting there, does mystify me. Anybody have any ideas? I'm open ears.

Beyond that, just want to comment/correct on a few things, and I'm done for now:

We don't stack all our coats at once. Our 4 layers go down 2-3 days apart, taking about 2 weeks for our clearcoats to be applied. We never ever ever ever shoot over uncured clear. Fast hardener has each coat "hard" in about 1 hour (hard to the fingernail push)... and we allow 2+ days just for that additional hardening before we sand to apply the next layer. Of course, after it's all said and done, the 4 layers (as shipped to the customer) have their "last 1%" of hardening to do over 2-3 months, or 4-6 months even better. That all happens in the customers' hands. We don't have the luxury to sit on a cleared run for 4-6 months before shipping it, nor the luxury to apply layers of clear across months. It's just not how playfield manufacturing can work. But we know people understand this.

I would contend that ALL repro (and even Stern / JJP) playfields do this. I don't know of any playfield makers who can sit on their playfields for 6 months for a complete final super duper cure, and then sandback, and do the final topcoat, and buff... and THEN ship to the final customer. Because what I'm told, that's the only way to deliver a "glass-flat-forever" playfield... and even the forever part I don't completely believe. I've seen Bill Davis playfields from many years ago that were $300-$500 clearcoat jobs, and they are ripplier than the stock CPR playfields surrounding me on my office walls right now, from the last 10 years of runs.

Our inserts do not move. They are not sinking. There is a wood lip behind every one of them that makes it impossible. You can't even get a CPR insert out of our wood without a hammer and a copper pipe, and some really really hard whacks... and even then, it takes all the wood around the insert out with it (still stuck to the insert). The effect of the inserts looking lower is because the clear is on a flat plastic face, and the wood has obviously expanded slightly. The plastic won't change, but the wood does (constantly). This has been covered by vid1900 many times. Ron knows his stuff, so it comes as a shock to me that he views those inserts as sinking back into the wood. They simply aren't.

That is my theory. My opinion. It could also be from drinking up excessive humidity. Something has definitely made the wood/grain very active and changed. It's usually one or the other. Too much or too little humidity, changed quickly over a short period of time. The mill where we have the gameboard panels custom made call it "shocking the wood" ... and it can cause warps and twists too. We've seen it all over the years. But all these bad/horror stories that pop up once in a while never seem to leave our shop that way. It's always months later in somebody elses' home environment. So it boggles the mind. I mean, I can only deliver a great-looking playfield. Months down the road if it goes weird, and all mine here are still fine, I have to scratch my head. Anybody have any ideas?

Which is why this is a head-scratcher. The playfields are made in runs one-after-the-other. Same wood stock, same mill, same coatings, same inks, same inserts, same clearcoater, same clearcoat, etc. Nothing should make FT any different. Yet here we are, and all of them in the same place.

Sorry to have given that impression. It's not that you DID something... I was trying to express that something THERE is possibly the variable that is making your 5-6 randomly selected FT playfields behave differently than everybody elses' and mine here. It's not about a blame game, I'm just trying to figure out answers like you are. I just wish I had a definitive answer. But how can we prove what it is, now that it's done? It's all down to theories at this point. My theory is something environmental. I don't think Ron did anything.

And as much as I have zero problem with Ron, and I too will equally state "I'm not ripping on Ron at all" ... this final line does end with that hint of sales pitch (hint...or maybe obvious?) for the case of a $500 clearcoat. There is no question these FT's in Ron's shop are going to need his finishing. Thankfuly, that is why they are there anyway. I'm just more concerned about how they got that way. But I do see a motivation to bring this out of email and onto Pinside... and thus this final line was not a surprise. Hey, the dude has gotta sell his services. I'm not holding it against him. But I do get tired of rare playfield weirdness being highlighted in public as if it's an ongoing thing to watch out for, and to seriously consider aftermarket clearcoating as a solution.

- - - - - -

To conclude, in general to everybody reading:
Believe me, if there was a run-wide "issue" we identify... I'll come on here as CPR Official, and make it known. As customers, bring it to us, state your case, and along with others who might be experiencing the same thing, we can make an official announcement of something to look out for or be aware of.

KEVIN
Classic Playfield Reproductions
http://www.classicplayfields.com

Don't worry - everybody loves Ron... we're not fighting. This is nothing to be sorry about.

This could have stayed in private email, but if it's going to hit Pinside as a public service announcement type of thing, then I too deserve to comment back from CPR's side. But this isn't a fight, I assure you. Since this has landed on Pinside and there is no going back now, maybe others can chime in with theories. Discussion is good. Criticism is good. But it goes both ways. Differing opinions are fine. We're all gentlemen here.

As for your Fish Tales Bronze playfield - I packed it myself, pulled right off the rack from the remaining ones here. I assure you, it doesn't have the chasm-ripples in the clear like Ron is showing. Just the hint of typical vertical grain patina, which is normal for a CPR playfield 4-5 months after it's been shot with clear. You won't need to wait months to swap/use it in your game. The playfield is already 4-5 months old, maybe older. We've gone onto produce Medusa, Nitro Groundshaker, Centaur, and recently Fathom, since Fish Tales was made. Your playfield will be ready-go right out of the box. Begin swap immediately if you like.

KEVIN
Classic Playfield Reproductions
http://www.classicplayfields.com

My god nothing is worse, than when someone takes each sentence and replies. now, should I clairify each sentence questioned. Not Interested. I have nothing to gain, so pick it apart.

wow I got bored of the long winded reply and skipped it, now I see you are saying I posted this to make money. I am booked 4 months back, I dont need any more work. If you would have not been a patronizing ass, it would have stayed between you and I. Now you want a war of words on a public fourm?

The only time I saw something like that on a few different playfields was when a guy that owns a restaurant had both Wizard and Silverball Mania repros all shrinky looking. They were stored out of the box laying longwise on edge in his office.

I was asking about humidity, sunlight, heat, and chemicals

He paused before saying "no" to chemicals.

Of course, no one is going to admit to having their house or restaurant sprayed for cockroaches.

After a little more prodding, he said he has the place sprayed monthly.

That's the only thing we could think of, nothing else seemed unusual.

After putting new clear on them, they are both smooth as glass and installed in his employee breakroom.

cockroach (resized).jpg

I can say that I found the CPR FishTales playfields to be VERY different from any other pf I have gotten form them.

I recieved 2 of them (1 for me and 1 for a friend). They both looked GREAT when I got them. Mine has sat stored exactly how I store all my pfs (open, mounted to wood rails, and hung vertically) They are all in the exact same room and all together.

My FT pf has now cured off for 3? months and it look identical to Ron's example (I can get photos later when at home if needed).

I am not complaining, but I think CPR should know that something is different with the FT pfs. This is the first pf I have had with this sinking insert issue and all my pfs are treated identical and I have many other CPR pfs with no issue.

I have not asked my friend about his yet, but I think he already installed so hoping it does not have sinking inserts like mine.

I still have a cpr cyclone and firepower where the inserts poped out thru the clear. If you reasearch it, I am sure there is something on it. You were giving refunds. No hammer and pipe was needed just time. when I mentioned it above I didnt mean actually sinking. I was just describing the effect in the 2 mins it took to write my post. I could either make my posts so dang long people wont make it thru the whole thing when it is about them, Or I can make sure every sentence cant be spun around. If you read the first post I wrote to the guy who asked the original question, I suggested waiting a while. if it looks good in a couple months, its all good. If anyone thinks I was trying to get work by crap talking cpr, they are wrong. CPR pays for my hooker addiction. I love cpr, although "we all love ron" I just dont like kevin or stu.
Now I feel embarrased to be a part of this. Fighting like this is just dirty.

Sheesh...lol

Honestly, I see no fighting here. Looks pretty in depth and well stated comments. I actually feel a *lot* better after reading Kevin's post above, but one thing I haven't seen addressed -

What's the *correct* (and proper?) way to store playfields? On their back, flat? On their sides? Hanging up vertically? (I don't mean for display, I'm meaning in case some curing needs to occur..)

As a side note my black knight is awesome. That is all.

I don't know how Kevin does it, but I screw rails to the BACK of the playfields and then stand them up totally vertical.

The rails keep them from bowing, and allow air to flow around them.

I know another restorer who stands them up on their sides with the rails on the back. That seems fine too.

I have a silver Bad Cats, looks incredible. I can't tell why it is silver. I can only guess bronze is slightly one off from a silver. Ask for pics of the "off" spots. I doubt they will be much of an issue. Couldn't be happier with mine. Heads up. . .ANY playfield will dimple when the ball strikes the playfield. When you put a brand new playfield you will see them if you look for them. I wouldn't hesitate to put in a new playfield because of this, in fact I have a new Bride of Pinbot playfield awaiting to be installed. If you want a new-in-box look and feel, do it.

Bought a TOTAN pf last year its a silver it stood against the wall for almost a year before I installed it. Here in Denver its extremely dry. I had no issues the pf looks stunning just like the day it arrived. Thanks CPR for doing what you do. By the way... How much longer for the EATPM pf ship.

You can also get many different quality sheets of plywood from the same source. Same with moisture content, & different production methods. Everyone knows how hard it is to find a good or decent source for quality playfield plywood. Also I use the CPR local contractor to clear my playfields. Lucky to have anyone willing to step forward & offer a reasonable quality finish clear coats. I know, previously used a number of shops that don't listen to the customers quality demands. The best guy was American, & returned to northern USA.

I second that, really looking forward to the EATPM playfields being ready.

I do playfield restoration and clear work as well. I'll let past customers talk about quality that I've sent them. One thing I agree on is Ron does a hell of a good job!

What I do is promise if you aren't happy with what you bought from me or don't like the quality, pay for the extra shipping and I'll fix anything you didn't like. If you are buying a playfield from my stock and don't like it, ship it bad, pay the shipping and I'll refund you purchase price. Hell I'll split the shipping costs with ya. I offer that on every job done and have never had anyone send back anything. I can even do custom work if you know what you want and we agree prior to starting.

Chris Kruger

Since you want input, I'll add mine. I believe my playfield was one of the first sent out and when received, looked beautiful. Because of this thread, I took a look at mine, which hasn't been installed yet, thankfully. It pretty much looks like Ron's pics. I have the ripple effect over the entire playfield and I can now feel every single insert lower than the wood surface.

I've seen the ripple effect on other playfields and also had others that had inserts higher than the wood, but never lower.

And FWIW, it was not stored at Ron's house.

Thanks for sharing Bryan.

That make 3 Fish Tales playfields now confirmed with the same symptom of looking amazing when received, stored properly, and now months later with heavy wood grain rippling and inserts below level (you can feel them).

I can confirm my pf was also not stored at Ron's house.

CPR >> It seems like something is different with FT pfs... not complaining and not expecting anything, just pointing out so you know and are able to investigate.

Exactly. I appreciate everything CPR does, I mean, who else would do it, but they do need to be aware, there's something different going on with this one.

No biggie. I'll have this one recleared and it will look great again.

My gold fish tales exhibits the same symptoms as well (the main table not the boat ramp), it sat well over the 90 days as suggested. I also have Mirco Funhouse that is chipping near the shooter lane, a bronze whirlwind (crazing inserts, but everything else is good), a silver taxi (crazing inserts, everything else good), had a bronze cyclone (crazing inserts, everything else good) ... I understand that pinball isn't perfect, and I am glad the opportunity exists to make these classics live again for the next few generations!