(Topic ID: 78979)

CPR backglass quality? Especially Paragon and Star Trek...

By Cheeks

10 years ago


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You're currently viewing posts by Pinsider KevinCPR.
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#31 10 years ago

The Paragon glass was run at the correct size. Period. Our panels are cut to the official Bally size from that era (28.5" x 25.75"), which applies to all glasses from that period, and thus all the Bally backboxes. Paragon was no different for us.

Here is another instance of one single case of an odd situation (at the user-end) creating a tempest in a teapot, where quickly the implication/impression to everybody tuning into this turns to "the entire run of Paragon glasses were the incorrect size". Which I doubt was even the OP's intention.

Seriously though, in 9 years we have only run ONE incorrect glass height (Eight Ball, back in 2007) which was 1/4" too short. Ordered the correct size with the glass factory, but they delivered as 25.5" tall (instead of 25.75") and it got through the entire production without notice. Never put a ruler to them back then, and always assumed an error at a factory on the scale of 200+ tempered panels delivered would never be screwed up. Plus the artwork centered fine when silkscreening (no red flags). Wasn't until weeks after release, after over 50 sold and shipped, the first customer pointed out it didn't reach into the top of his backbox. We ended up easily selling out of that glass within a couple months, regardless. Only a few others sent emails asking many months later. All of those with fitment trouble (ability to fall forward) were able to use the glass simply by using some specific trim tricks. For most, the shorter glass still fit *without* trickery, amazingly enough.

Rest assured, since then, we check the blanks upon delivery, right from the crates. Every time. Paragon definitely was done on 28.5 x 25.75 panels. Or it would have never made it onto the press.

In looking at the photos provided by the OP, it seems that our glass is indeed an oddball one. I can't imagine what else it could be. I just measured mine, and it's a solid 25.75" tall (see photos below) - just as seen on the tape measure of the OP's original. That one repro must be stunted, where likely the factory scored the sheet shy of target, and snapped it off there. Since the artwork is a fixed size, with an equal clear border all the way around, I'd be curious to see the bottom edge of his glass. If it's 1/4" too short, that would mean the artwork would have to be touching/spilling-off the bottom edge of his glass (because he seems to have clear edge on top, left, and right). If the art touches the bottom edge, definitely a single oddball glass from the run, as you can see mine is not like that. His artwork would HAVE TO be chopped off on his (just look at where the 25.5" mark lands in my photo). Is it? I'd love to know. Then I have questions internally of how that wasn't noticed and got packed.

As for thickness, all our panels are 1/8" tempered (as stated at the top of our backglass page) - regardless of what the originals were (as we all know, many variances of thicknesses, tempered and plate, were used back in the day). CPR sticking to one glass stock has to do with several constants: the significant difference/trouble in trying to temper the thicker glass (the factory recommends against it, as it exceeds their tolerances for guaranteeing even tempering edge-to-edge). Those original "thicker" glasses were on plate anyway. We're never using plate. It sucks. It breaks easier in shipping. It can hurt people if they tripped with one. Also, all our jigs, press, and processes are based on 1/8" glass stock. Also, weight for shipping is considered for our shipping rate.

In the future, if anybody has a query of discovering a potential run-wide error they *think* they have discovered, especially one unspoken nearly half a year after sellout (and that should be telling), take a moment, make that query with us as a direct PM and communicate your case. Before heading to the forum(s). Then we can take a look, see who's got what going on, and determine if a real runwide error or single error is going on. If one simply takes it straight public, declaring or insinuating that based on their piece, an entire CPR run contains an error - trust us, that is what people will follow suit and assume. It gets yucky (yeah, for us). Plus going directly public can go two ways: a) correct, you are a sleuth and master b) pie in face. Plus going directly public leaves us in the dark, and we don't know what you've found. For me, I would have never seen this discussion, had I not been directed to come here by somebody else (and it wasn't Stu). It was one of our regular customers who was concerned. This time, it was quick. Sometimes I may not find out until days/weeks later - then threads have bantered on deeply, and by then it's almost too late to come on and explain/correct/show and change dozens of minds to another viewpoint.

At least on this one, I hope people can trust that Paragon was produced at the correct size. The OP's glass is an oddball if it's truly being measured correctly (or are differing trims confusing things, etc). That bottom edge will tell the tale. I don't know completely. Had we had this discussed back after purchase, during the active days of it in stock, an exchange could have been done immediately. Now we don't have any more. I welcome a return and refund (no problem) if the OP chooses to go that way. But I need to be contacted

KEVIN
Classic Playfield Reproductions
http://www.classicplayfields.com

Please forgive Photo #1, as the parallax of the camera view doesn't allow a straight view of the 0" point or the 25.75" point without looking straight down (as in pictures 2 and 3). I just wanted to illustrate I wasn't doing anything hokey with the tape measure.

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Post edited by KevinCPR : grammar

#35 10 years ago
Quoted from Zitt:

The colors are off on the ST Proto BG... For me; if I get a repo - I expect it to be a faithful reproduction. Right colors . Right Thickness.
... please take this as feedback. Many of us expect near spot on artwork reproduction; including color matches.

We hear you. Appreciate the feedback. Now I'm going to speak generally (the following is not directed specifially at you):

I think it's best for everyone to read the CMYK editorial I wrote over on this thread (scroll down to find it):

http://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/cpr-backglasses

The truth of the matter is, the results some are looking for are very very very difficult to achieve attempting CMYK reproduction from scratch. If we had the original films, we'd all be fine. I WISH we could do what you are asking. If anything, it's the goal we are trying to strive toward, CMYK run after CMYK run. And we will continue to work toward that goal, with little tweaks attempted on every run until we get there.

"Right colors" is of course subjective. Some may beg to differ with the opinion that the CPR version isn't *more* appealing than old/original because one of the perks of CMYK prints in new ink is that the colors pop more. They don't wash out as much. They don't look faded.

Just so we're talking about something concrete (and this applies to Star Trek, Medusa, Paragon, etc) let's pull up the Silverball Mania glass project as an example. We got the similar feedback back then about colors. So let's take a look:

sbm_1.jpgsbm_1.jpg

So what are we looking at here? Well this is a BALLY ORIGINAL glass (NOS), in the backbox, and the machine turned on. Look at the hot spots of the bulbs. Look at the colors. This is considered "right"... right?

Now let's scroll down...

...

...

...

...

...

...

...

...

...

...

...

...

...

...

...

...

...

...

sbm_2.jpgsbm_2.jpg

So what are we looking at now? This is the CPR reproduction. Superior? Or not? Right or wrong? These are the subjectives that end up depending on each member of the audience. This new CMYK print *of course* doesn't look like the original...it's all fresh colors and ink, and not 30 years old faded and thinner ink like on the original. The bulb hot spots are helped a lot, if not mostly eliminated. The colors match better to the nice dense (unfaded) solids on the playfield. What is not to love here? Honestly, scroll back up to the previous picture...and back down here... now, truthfully, which one is "ewwww" ??? Honestly. I ask anybody to chime in with responses to this open question. Be honest, and give your resons why one or the other, in your opinion. There is no right or wrong answer. We're just curious, because the better looking glass seems obvious to me. But that's me.

"Right" colors may not be the best. But since people giving feedback run after run about differing colors from their CMYK original on our CMYK repro glasses, the tweaks we are doing every CMYK glass run are forcing our hand to move toward the more "Original" direction (ie. the first photo). Some people may say nooooooooo! Whyyyyyy! But yes, those asking for "more original" are getting the attention, and we are listening. So, in essence, we are trying to fade down and "deaden" our master images before they go to film, in order to give a result that looks older and more faded. Seems like a travesty, but this is what the louder voices are asking for. Original. So if our stuff cannot be called reproduction by some, then we'll make 30-year-old-looking glasses that can be. To some this seems silly. But it's what we're working toward. Original as possible.

I've always wondered if the original is put away in a closet, why the repro look isn't adopted by the eyes/brain (as there is nothing to A-B Compare to anymore). But I guess some people keep a perfect color memory of what used-to-be (me personally, I can't). What if I had provided the second SBM photo FIRST, and claimed it to be original. Would any have known the difference? Honestly. Then if I whipped out the first SBM photo and claimed it to be the reproduction - I'd be *slammed* for such a faded, washed out, ugly looking glass. Such irony, considering the reverse is the case.

I hope this doesn't come across as a rant, because it's not. I'm just fascinated by the purist views, as well as the more progressive views on pinball. So polarizing, from such different camps of thought. We're stuck in the middle, with both audiences to please. But one audience certainly has a more influencing voice. Original Original. If that is the direction people want us to go (SBM photo 1) as opposed to where we wanted to be (SBM photo 2) then we'll keep going in the "original" direction. I always thought people painted, polished, and retouched almost everything when trying to restore machines, to give them an UN-faded, UN-aged appearance. Why can we not do some of that work for you when color tweaking for our reproductions? It's an interesting conversation, and an interesting topic.

Feel free anybody to jump in here and give your 2 cents. I just gave mine.

KEVIN
Classic Playfield Reproductions
http://www.classicplayfields.com

#40 10 years ago
Quoted from mcluvin:

but are there really no images of SilverBall Mania from back in the day to decide once and for all what is correct?
Chris

Factory Flyer, from the IPDB:

2156f1.jpg2156f1.jpg

#42 10 years ago

At this point I'm wondering where the OP went (??). Looking for a response about what the bottom edge of his particular glass looks like (preferably a photo). If it's truly 25.5" tall, then you can see by the photo I provided earlier, the bottom edge should be cutting through the artwork at the 25.5" mark as seen on my tape measure. The OP's pics already show he has clear edges at the top, left, and right. So if the glass panel used for his repro is indeed 25.5" (snapped 1/4" shy by the factory), the loss in height would have to show on the bottom edge.

I either want to catch a mistake made in measurement by the OP, or catch an actual stunted panel that I can have a talk with the glass factory about... as well as my guys who didn't notice chopped-off artwork when it was packed, thus catching an obvious shorter glass before it ever got out the door.

Just trying to solve this mystery.

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