This thread is a bit of an echo chamber and unfortunately, like most topics, turned political and full of FUD. Orange man bad and other NPC type responses. I'm not even a fan of his but I at least have the common sense to weed through the confirmation bias.

As always, the truth lies in the middle. People are going to exploit this scenario for profiteering and politics ("never let a crisis go to waste") on both side of the aisle. Whether it be to profit from toilet paper or hand sanitizer or to get a political advantage over your opponent.

What we know:
1. This disease is killing elderly (most with compromised health) and other individuals with already compromised health. Sure, there are some outliers but it is disingenuous to act like they are the norm.
2. Currently there are roughly about a quarter million cases and less than 9,000 deaths.
3. Health care facilities are moving away from airborne transmission precautions and moving to droplet precautions (same way they treat the flu). You can see the impacts simply by looking on ebay and tracking the decrease in costs associated with N95 masks from the nascent stages of the disease to current.
4. A large majority (86%) of children and healthy adults are asymptomatic and recover as if they had the flu IF they exhibit any symptoms. The new thought is it is consider low risk for asymptomatic individuals to transmit. An infected individual would literally have to cough on you and you would have to exhibit systems before you are even tested (our institutions current policy).
5. Case counts will increase and create more alarm. Keep in mind, a majority of the actual case counts already exist, it is just a matter of testing is now available which will yield higher counts.

We need to ask ourselves some tough questions:
1. What should be the cost to save individuals with already compromised health that would most likely die from the flu or any other illness due to their current health condition and are already a strain on the healthcare system? This is a question asked in socialized medicine everyday. Should it be at the cost of the entire world economy? Currently elderly, those with prior health conditions and obese people are high risk. I know a majority of individuals on pinside probably fall into this category (at least my perception based on my attendance at shows) so there will be some bias but a lot of deaths are not due to the virus itself but the lifestyle the victim chose to live prior to being infected (other than age). This is a tough question that may sound heartless but one that needs to be addressed without involving emotion. A majority of our pain is not going to come directly from the virus but how we react to it (shortages, excessive quarantines, impacts to economy).
2. Were we meant to live to be 80-100? If technology supports it, great. However, mother nature always seems to find a way to self regulate. Again, individuals that are dying (other than a few outliers) are those with, let's face it, weaker or compromised genetics or are elderly. Most by lifestyle choice, some not (purely age). Keep in mind, death will come for all of us.
3. Are we to react in this manner for all future outbreaks or viruses? I think we all know the answer to this question and that it would be unsustainable. With our current population and things like wet markets to feed this straining population growth it is amazing this hasn't happened sooner. Wait..it has. We pretty much have these types of viruses present themselves every year.

What I do know:

I work for a major healthcare facility. 100% of the everyone's focus is on Covid, naturally. You will soon see major impacts to healthcare institutions, not because of the virus itself, but because of the current reactions and hysteria which will tax the system regardless if cases increase. Our system is bleeding cash because all services have been cut unless covid related as government mandated. Our hospitals and clinics are empty (revenue), yet our expenses remain (operations). Cash on hand is being depleted to cover said expenses. Lack of revenue due to lack of patients will have serious consequences. Once compensation is cut workers will stop working. This is probably the case across the country. In an ironic way, the only thing that may save institutions (aside from government subsidies) is a a massive influx of covid patients. How's that for a twist. In addition, our physician and provider population is aging. A majority are considered high risk and told not to work so the number of hands on deck has dwindled. We once tried to mitigate this by incorporating a mandatory retirement age but it was deemed by the EEOC (federal agency) to be age discriminatory. Older physicians refuse to retire hence reducing the number of younger recruits more equip to handle something like this. In fact, the EEOC is even filing lawsuits against institutions asking aging physicians to pass a simple eye and neuropsychological exam (see Yale)!

Again the truth lies in the middle and I strongly feel the reaction to the virus will create more harm then the virus itself (at least based on current death tolls). Do we need to react, yes! Is it possible to overreact, yes! The world is literally melting down around us. Not because people are dying in the streets but because people are acting like they are. Stay safe, be smart, don't over react, this WILL pass. China's rates are already decreasing which is a positive sign.

I don't mean to offend anyone but these are all current real predicaments and questions we must face.

There is no perfect system because perfection doesn't exist. Both systems have their shortcomings and benefits. Again, one can argue politics all day. The great thing about a post-truth society is that you're no longer tied down by facts. You can fine someone who says what you want to hear and that is your reality. This is applicable to both sides.

it is illegal for us to turn down patients that are uninsured or can't pay.

I think it is more taking portions of each side that hold half-truths and combining them. Either side is neither 100% wrong or right. Most of the time neither side wants to hear the truth because it doesn't 100% validate their beliefs. It's easier to fool someone than convince them they have been fooled.

Are you saying it is a universal truth that all those that fit those categories will die?

I think I made it clear in my post, we have to ask ourselves tough questions. What should be the cost to save those that potentially might die of which already have underlying issues taking into consideration exposure, contraction and recovery rates? I don't want anyone to die but that is not an option. This is a question we will be forced to ask ourselves soon than later. Are we to avoid it simply because it is uncomfortable? You think I don't have family members or friends that fall into this category?

I think there is a lot more at stake then simply "Getting back to work".

My point is we have a finite amount of resources and an abundance of problems in the world to solve. We have to approach this from an economic perspective because our economic utility is limited. How do we get the most bang for our buck to minimize deaths and minimize other horrible outcomes if all resources are concentrated on Covid? There will be no perfect answer. People will die. The economy will suffer. Lives will be upended. We live in an imperfect world unfortunately. I'll tell you this, we are most likely past the point of returning back to normal asap. That's definitely a false choice, as is civilization completely falling.

I'll humor you. If I had to answer your question I would say yes, let this run it's course to prevent all of civilization from falling (your words, not mine).

I'm not sure if you are just trying to argue for the sake of arguing at this point or I struck a nerve. Perhaps you fall into the high risk category and this is unpleasant? If so I apologize and I hope you stay safe.

I'm not orchestrating the narrative. I'm simply pointing out that these are questions we are going to be forced to ask ourselves.

Most likely these cases existed prior and some have already cleared the virus. Up until earlier this week my hospitals could only process 60 tests per day. We are getting equipment that will process 500 any day now. Most likely other facilities are in the same boat. Numbers will shoot through the roof causing more panic but as mentioned by others earlier, death count is the one to watch.

But again, "likely" doesn't mean squat.

Good points

Numbers as of yesterday.

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You have to understand the youth's (Genz and Mil) perspective. As a Gen Xer I sit back with interest and curiosity as I am not a target of their angst, the baby boomers are. A lot of them want accelerationism. They don't want to live in these times any longer and they absolutely do not relate to boomers whom rely on legacy corporate media (FoxNews, Abc, MSNBC, etc.) for their information. They actually recognize those media firms to be mere propaganda wings of the DNC and RNC, which in all honesty, they are. They want nothing to do with the establishment parties (see growing support for more "extreme" candidates), where as many boomers put party before country. I digress. As I mentioned, they want accelerationism as they feel we live in "clown town". They want to hit the reset button on both sides of the isle for varying reasons. In fact on many forums they are hoping for the corona virus to be "the happening". They are praying it doesn't become a "nothing burger". They are tired of the baby boomers. Below are examples of memes of which you will find a plethora of on the internet.

Again, don't flame me. I'm just telling you their perspective.

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I think it is like the meme states. They feel the boomers have squander everything out of selfishness leaving them nothing. No jobs, fucked up times, massive debt, etc. The boomers didn't give a fuck about the youth so why would they give a fuck about boomers. In their eyes the boomers did no good (for them), so why should they do good for boomers. I think that's it in a nutshell.

I don't think they buy the herd mentality unless it is for immunity...lol.

Boomers list of things to lose:
1. Life
2. Pensions and retirement accounts
3. Businesses
4. Peers/friends
5. Jobs

Youth list of things to lose:
1. Get sick for a week unless you are an exceptional case
2. Potential senior family members
3. Low paying jobs unless they got lucky and landed a career (of which most were exported by boomer CFO's)

This maybe your assumption but on forum boards they frequent there is a lot of interesting viewpoints that you will not get in the legacy media and they are definitely not one-sided. True anonymity allows them to speak there minds without recourse from the thought police. Sort of the last bastions of free speech. Some posts are quite childish in nature (often for comedic or satirical value), some hateful but overall most are quite insightful. Unfortunately, free speech doesn't protect you from hurtful speech or speech you may not agree with. They do a ton of research as they hunger for more information and alternative outlooks other then the current mainstream propaganda outlets provide.

I think the problem maybe that you find anyone that doesn't adhere to your philosophy is a moron, which is evident in a majority of your posts. Perhaps a little tolerance and understanding of other's perspectives may be helpful.

Like I said, it is accelerationism they want. They see the world slowly decaying and just want to speed it up so they can start over and rebuild. Kind of like that quote. Tough times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, weak men create tough times. They feel we are in the tough times. I think they don't see it getting better for them. Wealth concentrating in fewer hands, less opportunity, etc. Beats me. I have to get back to work from my break.

Wait, are the libs now denying the Wu flu started in China bc it's offensive?

Orange man bad! If Obama would have done the same they would be throwing their panties at him. Neo conservative is different than neo-lib bc they have an r behind their name, right? They are all the same. One thing the youth have correct is that these party before country types will hopefully die off with the boomers. They fully bought into the two party divide and conquer system.

Intersting I saw a thread about real progressives praising Trump and talking about realignment because the establishment dems have to attack anything Trump does and he is implemtimg some progressive policies and they simply can't can't give him credit bc it hurts their soul. I'll try to find link to Twitter screen shots and post. The fact that Biden is the nominee pushed them over the edge.

I would shut the thread down. It's been a political dumpster fire for a while. I'm guilty as well.

Newsome thinks we will reach 56%, those trapped on a cruise ship reach 19%. Lock down the state!!! This can't even be enforced. There aren't enough cops.