(Topic ID: 104928)

Could MMR be "one and done" for Chicago Gaming?


By jfh

5 years ago



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There are 334 posts in this topic. You are on page 3 of 7.
#101 5 years ago

Im not sure why Rick can't clarify the relationship between PPS and CG. Is PPS the manufacturer who is subcontracting to CG who is then handing off part of the production to Stern. Or are we buying a CG machine with PPS simply licensing the IP and maybe supplying some parts. Rick obviously doesn't need to tell us anything more but it would be good to know who will be responsible for the warranty, etc. The PPS logo was originally on the translite (can't recall if it still is) and the clear impression at Expo was that PPS was driving the bus.

Unless the broader relationship between CG and Stern is an important part of Stern containing to produce, it seems like they are splitting up the pie between 4 vs. potentially only 2 players. PPS is already distributing a lot of the games so why involve additional distributors (except maybe foreign sales). If they could get the price down to around $6500, I think they'd have a strong, long-term position.

#102 5 years ago

Which of the three logos will be on the game? Stern, PPS or Chicago Gaming?

We know it WON'T have the Williams logo

#103 5 years ago
Quoted from pinstyle:

I think it's the strangest thing ever that some people actually buy something for entertainment and worry about its resale value. It would be like me worrying what the value of the two quads and trailer I bought..., I couldn't give a shit what they are worth now or when I'm done with them, I bought them to enjoy. Or when I road bikes all the time, picking out a frame based on what I think it's value would be next week, instead of the hand built one I want, riding the piss out of it and never looking back. I'm not even that well off, I make a modest wage compared to probably most on here....
I am deffinatly in the an investment is separate from my toys, though I have known people that see everything they buy as an investment. These people usually jump from one thing to the next, usually what's hot at the time. Weird....

So, to follow that logic out. You ride the piss out of your quads then sell them how? Based on the going rate? Give them away since you used your allotment of fun out of them? I mean, how do you value something that has no value since it has had the piss ridden out of it?

See, by that logic, every game should have been depreciated to "free" by now. Everyone has used up the worth of said game against its original price tag.

Why is it that em's are dirt cheap and dmd's are more money? Simple answer. They are more desirable, ergo, collectible. Collectible: (noun) an item valued and sought by a collector.

#104 5 years ago
Quoted from pezpunk:

I do not understand what is so difficult to understand. everyone likes money. but most people are smart enough to know their leisure activities will not be profitable, and expecting them to be is a major bummer / stress point / distraction

Typical straw man argument, as virtually nobody is arguing that every pinball machine that they buy should go up in value.

#105 5 years ago
Quoted from calvin12:

Wrong I dont care what the value of my machines are.

I am sure you don't say that to your insurance company if you ever need to talk to them about a loss.

#106 5 years ago
Quoted from calvin12:

Wrong I dont care what the value of my machines are.

#107 5 years ago
Quoted from Skins:

So, to follow that logic out. You ride the piss out of your quads then sell them how? Based on the going rate? Give them away since you used your allotment of fun out of them? I mean, how do you value something that has no value since it has had the piss ridden out of it?
See, by that logic, every game should have been depreciated to "free" by now. Everyone has used up the worth of said game against its original price tag.
Why is it that em's are dirt cheap and dmd's are more money? Simple answer. They are more desirable, ergo, collectible. Collectible: (noun) an item valued and sought by a collector.

No I rode the piss out of the bikes I had (pedal bikes, Quamen FTW). The quads are by no means abused, however what they are worth if/when I decide to sell, is whatever the market dictates considering their age and condition. It's not something I dwell on. I assume they will have some value, however small it my be.

#108 5 years ago
Quoted from Skins:

Pinball machines are goods. A physical item you possess that can be sold or traded in the future. Up until recently, pinball was a collectable market with an economy of its own.

You can't have it both ways - pinball machines are either goods OR collectables.

If pinball machines are goods, then it's similar to a laundry basket - you buy the goods to serve a purpose. Whether you are carrying laundry or playing a game, the goods used are depreciating assets (and assets in a very loose sense of the word). You don't expect to buy a laundry basket at Walmart and sell it for a profit a few years later when you want a different style of basket. If you're lucky, you get a quarter at a garage sale. (You want spgoods closer in price? Trade the laundry basket for a car)

The only difference between the two is that it is more fun to play pinball than to do laundry.

If they are collectables - like stamps or coins - then I agree, the economy would be different. But just because a few people want pinball machines to be that type of market doesn't make it so.

#109 5 years ago
Quoted from jfh:

You can't have it both ways - pinball machines are either goods OR collectables.

You really can't believe that statement. I didn't bother reading the rest sorry. I'm just not going to debate something when your initial premise isn't valid.

**edit for posterity: good(s) (noun): merchandise or possessions

#110 5 years ago
Quoted from pinstyle:

No I rode the piss out of the bikes I had (pedal bikes, Quamen FTW). The quads are by no means abused, however what they are worth if/when I decide to sell, is whatever the market dictates considering their age and condition. It's not something I dwell on. I assume they will have some value, however small it my be.

Ok, so like I said, then by that logic, all pinball should be free by now.

#111 5 years ago

I think a large part of what's driven the buy-before-you-play NIB market has been the ability to sell it at a small loss (or perhaps even make money) if it doesn't suit your fancy, or to make room for the next NIB.

If people start expecting the drop in value to be too big, I think it will really cut into pre-order NIB sales.

Still, there are always people who will pre-order because it's their favorite theme so I don't see the manufacturers going back to a non pre-order policy.

#112 5 years ago

Beanie Babies were once a collectable and a reminder that trends and popular opinion will change

#113 5 years ago
Quoted from Skins:

You really can't believe that statement. I didn't bother reading the rest sorry. I'm just not going to debate something when your initial premise isn't valid.

I absolutely do believe that, which is why I think your premise is flawed.

People who think pinball machines are investment vehicles are far more likely to be disappointed than I am in the long run.

#114 5 years ago
Quoted from jfh:

I absolutely do believe that, which is why I think your premise is flawed.
People who think pinball machines are investment vehicles are far more likely to be disappointed than I am in the long run.

Don't change the debate. Nowhere in my post did I state they were investment vehicles. Typical tactic. Keep changing the debate until you have the upper hand.

Oh, and if you believe your statement then debating you is fruitless. Just for your edification. Good(s) (noun) merchandise or possessions

So please illuminate me how a pinball machine can't be a collectible and a good. I'm waiting...

#115 5 years ago
Quoted from pezpunk:

flippers don't create anything of value, other than price inflation.

#116 5 years ago
Quoted from JAXPinball:

Beanie Babies were once a collectable and a reminder that trends and popular opinion will change

Dont forget these!!

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#117 5 years ago

.

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#118 5 years ago

Lately every discussion degrades into this debate. Maybe we can agree that...

If you've spent more than 25% of your net worth on your pins, they're an investment.

If you've spent less than 5% of your net worth on your pins, you can afford to enjoy them without sweating their value.

Between 5 and 25% - let common sense be your guide.

#119 5 years ago
Quoted from Skins:

Just for your edification. Good(s) (noun) merchandise or possessions
So please illuminate me how a pinball machine can't be a collectible and a good. I'm waiting...

Before your edit, I took "goods" to mean "consumer goods" or typical products - if you are going to just consider "goods" as something you possess, then by your definition goods are also collectables. But I think your definition is a little too broad for the topic at hand.

#120 5 years ago
Quoted from jfh:

But I think your definition is a little too broad for the topic at hand.

My definition? LOL

Try the dictionary definition.

At any rate, I think our dialogue has run its course.

#121 5 years ago
Quoted from Skins:

People know that the good or service disney provides is chiefly memories. Pinball machines are goods. A physical item you possess that can be sold or traded in the future.

typically, physical goods depreciate in value over time, the biggest hit being when it's taken out of the box. that is normal.

Quoted from Skins:

Up until recently, pinball was a collectable market with an economy of its own. That economy has been turned on its ear.

no, the pinball market had been on it's ear for the last few years, and it has since been righted by an increase in competition and supply.

#122 5 years ago
Quoted from pezpunk:

typically, physical goods depreciate in value over time, the biggest hit being when it's taken out of the box. that is normal.

If we're talking about blenders, then yes. Pinball machines are collectibles. Hell, pinside has a "your collection" tab

Quoted from pezpunk:

no, the pinball market had been on it's ear for the last few years, and it has since been righted by an increase in competition and supply.

Rapid rise yes, but most desirable pinballs have appreciated over the last several decades. That is an immutable fact. All the more credence that pinballs are a collectable item. The fact that prices are falling back to more normal incremental appreciation or continue to falter is the gist of this debate.

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#123 5 years ago

I don't even know what's being argued anymore

#124 5 years ago
Quoted from Skins:

If we're talking about blenders, then yes. Pinball machines are collectibles.

remind me not to consult you for investment advice. your beanie baby and 90s baseball card portfolio must be booming.

#125 5 years ago
Quoted from jfh:

"will Chicago Gaming continue to be involved?"

I brought this very question up months ago after it was announced that Stern would be assembling them.

PPS holds all the licenses, and Chicago Gaming licensed MMr from them just like Stern licensed Tron from Disney.

If this is the only game they have licensed so far, it might make good business sense that since Stern is building them anyway, that Stern and PPS make some kind of a license deal on any future titles one at a time.

#126 5 years ago

Mmr one and done no....after second game I could see re evaluating of market absorption....maybe. Key is how many it takes to make it worth making. Remember not only do they get th e nib sale they get to reproduce all of the pf parts In bulk filling the demand for referb jobs. Then the number of overall machines have increased so future sales of referb jobs are possible...its all win win. Bbb to me makes no sense to rerun. Afm mb then funhouse with dmd....if I were running the register that would be my list. After that kinpin which could be considered the first new original planetary pinball release...then bbb beasuse I would run enough board sets for both capcom titles when making kp.

#127 5 years ago
Quoted from HOOKED:

Afm mb then Funhouse with dmd

No BBB, no thanks, no way it gets numbers, just a hype play that pinheads are too smart to fall for…

AFM, no thanks, MB and FH with an LCD! yep………

However, an original would do SO MUCH BETTER!

#128 5 years ago
Quoted from Pintucky:

I'll probably not buy another pin from PPS . . . because they cheated me out of my COIN MECHS on MMr!!! I won't forget Rick's quick dismissal of the questioning that followed.

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#129 5 years ago
Quoted from pinstyle:

I am deffinatly in the an investment is separate from my toys camp, though I have known people that see everything they buy as an investment.

There doesn't need to be an either or. My point is, if you're clever you can do both. I have had a very rewarding pinball hobby and I've also made money at it. Making money can be a hobby also and when you combine two passions you've got a total winner for yourself.

Here's my example: When MMR reaches the $5000 mark in a year or two, I'll most likely buy. It will be HUO, I'll play the crap out of it and then sell it for $5000. Or I'll keep it and have saved $3000.00. And if prices never go that low then I won't buy it . There are other deals to be had.

This mentality of compulsive buying and keeping up with the Jones' is why the rich get richer and the poor stay poor.

I take it back, I'll wait until MMR hits $3000.00

#130 5 years ago

Comparing pinball machines to beanie babies and pogs is stupid.

BBs and pogs have no inherent value by themselves. It takes very little effort to create the art on pogs or design of beanies, and absolutely minimal effort to manufacture them in quantity. ALL value of these items is based solely on "collectability" aspect, artificial rarity and the desire to have the item, and nothing else.

Pinball machines represent thousands of hours of artistic creation and design work. They include printed art, innovative mechanical design, music, speech and animation. Plus, they are interactive entertainment, and can be used to earn money should the owner put them on location. Pinball machines are unique in that they are both durable commercial equipment AND artistic creations. Comparing these to bits of cardboard or stuffed cloth is, again, just stupid. A pinball machine will never become worthless unless it is complete firewood.

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#131 5 years ago

October 2014: Month that bold text on pinside blew the f--k up

#132 5 years ago
Quoted from jfh:

Except Rick says this is a CG project and PPS is not in charge, so PPS didn't engage CG - CG licensed the ability to produce MMR from PPS. That's what I don't get - Why is CG driving this bus?

CG is driving this bus probably because they were the only domestic company that would take on the project at the time.

Unfortunately they then figured out that they were not capable of finishing the project themselves and created and sold an electrical device before it was UL approved. Meaning that the completed unit may be unsafe and changes will have to be made.

#133 5 years ago
Quoted from Erik:

I don't even know what's being argued anymore

I prefer a car-gument but I think were shifting to blender's.

-1
#134 5 years ago
Quoted from Mr68:

This mentality of compulsive buying and keeping up with the Jones' is why the rich get richer and the poor stay poor.

I take it back, I'll wait until MMR hits $3000.00

Yep, maybe Obama will hand out free pins in Boulder, who knows?

Love that handout thinking…….it is Boulder after all!

#135 5 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

Yep, maybe Obama will hand out free pins in Boulder, who knows?
Love that handout thinking…….it is Boulder after all!

Umm, I think you completely misinterpreted my point. Or I did yours...

#136 5 years ago
Quoted from Mr68:

Umm, I think you completely misinterpreted my point. Or I did yours...

JK….

#137 5 years ago
Quoted from Skins:

Ok, so like I said, then by that logic, all pinball should be free by now.

I have absolutely no idea how you are coming to that conclusion from my statement......

On the plus side for you, you have two people apparently who do follow what your saying.

#138 5 years ago

Skins, anything can be collectible. It doesn't mean that everyone who buys/owns these "things" consider them to be collectible. You'd be surprised to find some of the things people collect....even blenders lol

#139 5 years ago
Quoted from teekee:

Exactly! We're talking about thousands and thousands of dollars here. Not like buying underwear or groceries… gimme a break!
It you spend 8 grand for a new pin every so often and you don't treat it as an 'investment' and you don't care what happens to the value and you don't care how far the value plummets then you're an idiot! SIMPLE AS THAT.

OK, I think I'm with you only buy pins that will only grow in money even if I don't care for them. only buy purely as a investment.

#140 5 years ago

In defense of Teekee, I doubt he buys every game based solely on what its future value would be, but he is obviously very concerned with what it will be worth in the future.

#141 5 years ago
Quoted from Mr68:

There doesn't need to be an either or. My point is, if you're clever you can do both. I have had a very rewarding pinball hobby and I've also made money at it. Making money can be a hobby also and when you combine two passions you've got a total winner for yourself.
Here's my example: When MMR reaches the $5000 mark in a year or two, I'll most likely buy. It will be HUO, I'll play the crap out of it and then sell it for $5000. Or I'll keep it and have saved $3000.00. And if prices never go that low then I won't buy it . There are other deals to be had.
This mentality of compulsive buying and keeping up with the Jones' is why the rich get richer and the poor stay poor.
I take it back, I'll wait until MMR hits $3000.00

I can understand that Mr68, this is not how I look at the things I buy for entertainment though. Making money off of my hobbies is not something I have ever taken part in. My focus has always been very deeply on the hobby itself, not even a thought to what I might have is worth. I find things I value often times are worth more to me than any monetary value they may hold.

#142 5 years ago

And these are the days of our lives....

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#143 5 years ago

What is the min run number for a viable business model.

#144 5 years ago
Quoted from o-din:

sold an electrical device before it was UL approved. Meaning that the completed unit may be unsafe and changes will have to be made.

Huh? That's not how it works (sometimes amazed at what is written here). You make a product, and then you put it into UL testing to get certified that it is safe - nobody has sold us anything ... you cannot put anything into UL and 'change it' afterwards, otherwise you have to rerun it thru UL ... why not bash all the companies who did not put their game thru UL as opposed to us who has (and Stern and JJP that I know of).

r

#145 5 years ago
Quoted from PPS:

Huh? That's not how it works (sometimes amazed at what is written here). You make a product, and then you put it into UL testing to get certified that it is safe - nobody has sold us anything ... you cannot put anything into UL and 'change it' afterwards, otherwise you have to rerun it thru UL ... why not bash all the companies who did not put their game thru UL as opposed to us who has (and Stern and JJP that I know of).

Hey Rick, I wasn't trying to bash anyone. Just pointing out that if something does not pass UL approval then something will have to be changed to pass inspection, won't it? I read somewhere that there was a problem passing inspection at one time thus the delay. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

#146 5 years ago
Quoted from pezpunk:

remind me not to consult you for investment advice. your beanie baby and 90s baseball card portfolio must be booming.

There you go changing the debate to suite your point. Just because something is collectible does not translate to investment. I know you keep trying to marry the two to make your point valid. Show me once where I stated collecting pinballs was an investment. You can't.

#147 5 years ago

UL is where you go when the game is 'done', and then there is a WHOLE bunch of evaluation and then lab testing (they short everything, pour liquids on it, cut things open, try to knock it over, etc). During the process they communicate with the vendor to get clarification, note any issues which need to be fixed (ex: putting additional insulation on a wire, or separating one wire a little farther from another, and I'm sure just about anything they think is a safety issue). If the changes can be made while the machine is in test, then that is the best way, and I do believe that if there is a 'major' issue then that needs to be fixed and then some portion of the testing has to resume once the correction is made.

rick

#148 5 years ago
Quoted from PPS:

If the changes can be made while the machine is in test, then that is the best way, and I do believe that if there is a 'major' issue then that needs to be fixed and then some portion of the testing has to resume once the correction is made.

That's what I meant. Not trying to bash anyone. It is good to let UL do their thing.

#149 5 years ago
Quoted from Skins:

There you go changing the debate to suite your point. Just because something is collectible does not translate to investment.

if there's some kind of cogent point here, i'm afraid it's escaping me. you are saying collectibles aren't investments, but you're mad that PPS is causing your collectibles to go down in value. pardon me if i'm not following.

#150 5 years ago
Quoted from pinstyle:

I have absolutely no idea how you are coming to that conclusion from my statement......
On the plus side for you, you have two people apparently who do follow what your saying.

The, "I don't have a rebuttal so I will say I don't understand your point", rebuttal. Nice

It's simple. If desirable (ie collectable) pinballs don't appreciate in value, ala your, ride the piss out of it and sell it as a used item for less than you purchased it analogy; desirable pinballs wouldn't go up in value even though nearly every desirable classic b/w has done just that. Eventually, as each successive owner of the used item depreciates it to account for their "use", eventually said pinball would be worth nothing or peanuts. That's obviously not how history has shown us it works for pinball machines.
I don't want to sound condescending, but if you don't understand that, you are either niave or being obtuse.

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