Because they aren't a manufacturing company. They are a license holder that makes money by allowing others to make products based on the license(s) that they hold.

It was stated a year ago that Chicago Gaming was going to be producing the pins. I am not sure that this is still the case. Chicago gaming is a production facility. PPS would have engaged with them to build the machines. It is almost sounding like they were not able to meet the demand, time line, costs, or whatever and that PPS has switched to Stern to build the games. PPS would be the only people that would be able to tell us for sure.

Well, there could be a more diplomatic way to say it, but I must admit you made me laugh...

I don't know what the big deal is for MMr..... its a new game, it costs around the same as a JJP or Stern new game, its a title that is well liked, and its allowing more people to join the "elite" MM club. Do people like it or not, is it the last Williams remake game, does it bring the cost down of originals, its not like the original.... does anyone really care about these things other than to argue about it?

a lot of people feel very angry and threatened, and are desperate to cast MMRLE as a negative thing for the hobby merely because it's potentially a negative thing for their own personal profits. it's as simple as that for some (though not all) of the complainers.

+ 1 million.

I'd like an argument please.

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There is probably more anger and people feeling threatened by those who try to cast MMr in a negative light than people who actually try to paint MMr in a negative light.

Probably because of their own personal decision pre-order MMr, so they have a vested interest in having it come out great.

lol, okay

Thanks for the discussion.

I don't think that's a concern at all.

I think the overall assumption by those that ordered is that it's as fun as the original.

THEY are not the ones spazzing out like Teekee. They aren't the ones trying to dismiss how good it will be before being played. They aren't the ones flying around the forums trying to convince others that an original commands a higher price tag no matter what. Those that pre-ordered are RESPONDING to this nonsense.

Not much to be said, I think you have low standards for the term "service".

And I think you just like to bash for the sake of bashing.

I have friends who have bought pins from Teekee for the very reasons that I stated. And they are very happy customers...as shocking as that may be to you.

You have read your own comments on pinside correct? This is actually the first thread I've ever said anything negative. In fact, I'm pretty disappointed that I did. I generally keep things pretty positive considering so many will come into threads and dump on everything they can for no good reason.

That is shocking, but I believe you none the less.

After thinking long and hard about this, I can only come to one conclusion.

Who the fuck knows.....

Anyone want a beer? It's Friday.

_{Post edited by misfitdart: Cancel this pist}

As more new feature rich machines from major manufacturers, like TBL and potentially the Hobbit hit the market I think the remakes are going to be a tough sell at a similar price point.

To me, much of the allure of a new machine is getting a new pinball playing experience. You don't get this with the remakes. What you get is a chance to buy a new model of a grail machine.

Problem is that as soon as the remake is announced the price of the originals drops, so the remakes are not only competing with the new releases but with the originals that offer the same game playing experience.

If there is another remake, it will most likely be facing much stiffer competition than MMr was when it was announced.

We should do a poll after TBL and Hobbit are in peoples homes and see how many buyers would be in for an AFMr at $8k, especially with Lawlor's pin on the horizon.

Look at it this way....

20 +year old $12000 classic car. Owned by collectors who over the years because of supply and demand have set the price. Fun to drive, will still get me where i want to go. Might need a little work now and then. Could not drive it every day to work.
But its the classic I always wanted.

New remake $8000 car. Fun to dive. Get me where I want to go. Can drive it every day. Has a warranty. And its new. Still might need some work in the future, but its covered by the manufacturer for the first year. Looks and drives like the classic I always wanted. Has a new modern engine, brakes, paint, electronics.

Now which would you buy?

Thats why they will continue to remake any/all of the most desired higher priced games.
Availibility, price and common sense.

An example online right now.
1968 ford gt40 $169000. 45 year old technology. Requiring constant maintaince to drive everyday.
2010 ford gt 40 $ 100000. Modern components, steering, brakes etc. Faster too.

Yes, it would put everyone out of business.

I agree with Mr. 68, 2 and done with #2 a break even proposition or a loss for PPS IMHO. MMR will take a bigger hit than X-Men or Avengers % wise on the resale market and the people that actually hung on and put down the money will tap out.

Sad. I was hoping for more games from JJP and Stern, but I fear these opportunists will eventually kill the golden goose.

If JJP and Stern can't compete with a 20 year old design then their demise is their own fault. Not that I think it is remotely likely to happen.

Or....for $8k you can get a new cool looking vehicle from a different manufacturer that gets 1.5x the gas mileage, 2x the power, heads-up display, keyless ignition/door locks and memory seats.

Or.... for $5k you can get a decent used original that looks and plays the same.

Which would you get?

I'm just saying the market starts to get narrower. Success will depend on how many games they need to sell to make it worthwhile.

Edit: One advantage PPS has is that they are making replacement parts anyway. They can get things in place while gauging the market without too much risk.

This is one of the main reasons I dropped out of the MMR. I "thought" I was buying a $12,000.00 game for $8K. I love a deal. But then I realized I was really buying an $8000.00 game for $8000.00 dollars... And once I opened the box it would immediately be worth $7000.00 or worse. And when they start pumping out the Standard MMR its sky-falling prices.

But hey, I'm happy for all of the purist's that buy only for the love of hobby and don't care about taking a huge loss.

They never made a 2010 gt40 and the 05-06 gt are over 200k but I get your point.

BINGO. That's exactly why I'm not in on one either. Plus I want to make sure there are no hardware problems and if there are I want to see how it's handled.

Best post of thread.

A year ago, the first 1,000 were sold fast with speculation.
The sum of the deposits was a million dollars.

We now see guys here selling their place in line, at a loss.

So, how many people will take that same the risk again?

Why not just wait until they produce game number 2, and buy it then, when it is 'cheaper'?

So, without the pre-order million, will PPS/CGC take the risk again? Or, do they really need the deposits to go forward?

If they make it past game number 2, I would be surprised.

I'm with Mr. 68.

I canceled my MMR order in less than 24 hours of the announcement . I ordered from Twisted pins and got my money back immediately. I was only excited by the 1000 number and quickly figured out the same exact thing as MR68.

Nailed it.

Price on the latest Stern LE skyrockets and people complain. MMR and Stern vault editions lowers pinball prices and people complain. People are all for cheap pins, as long as it's not the pin they are selling.

So should I start looking at every purchase in life like an investment? Only buy products that will grow in value? That's going to make grocery and underwear shopping difficult.

of course not. i think its great people are buying mmr for the pure enjoyment of the machine. i invest in food for the enjoyment of eating something delicious. personally, i got my refund back because i want to buy and support something new from jjp, stern or dp. down the road i might buy a used machine, but not anywhere near the 8k price of course.

I bought the game because I love it and wanted to have a chance to play it at home. And not just in any condition, but brand new.

I get your motivation, but I'm not sure it's the right one (at least for me) for buying MMR (or pins in general)

No one wants to own a pin that plummets in value ! NO ONE .

But everyone wants to be on the buying end of that pin that plummets in value... Some people here just want it both ways and it's not practicle.

That's right. And that's why I got into some pissing matches here on Pinside when the MMR announcement was made. Certain people on here were laughing of how original MM owners were going to lose money. They were called stupid or at least it was implied. Truly pathetic behavior. And some of those jokers are about to find out about losing.

And for the record I've never owned a MM.

Basically, Yes. This is one of the secrets to accumulating wealth or at the very least improving ones life. From the very beginning I have treated my pinball hobby with an eye on the bottom line.

Exactly! We're talking about thousands and thousands of dollars here. Not like buying underwear or groceries… gimme a break!

It you spend 8 grand for a new pin every so often and you don't treat it as an 'investment' and you don't care what happens to the value and you don't care how far the value plummets then you're an idiot! SIMPLE AS THAT.

Ignore his "idiot" comment but please consider my words.

If you believe Rick, they don't plan on announcing the next game until they're very close to production (so there won't be the same pre-order opportunity), and presumably PPS isn't banking on pre-order money to fund production of that pin.

If you're asking why buy new at all, be it from PPS, Stern or JJP ... well, if it's not worth a decent chunk of money to you to have the new game upon release, or to be the first owner of that game, there's probably no reason to. Of course if everyone took this approach sales of new pins would plummet, and manufacturers will either stop making them all together, or run much smaller runs (either of which will dry up supply and presumably lead to higher prices on used games, assuming that demand remains the same.) But that still doesn't mean it makes financial sense for an individual to buy new.

I do not understand what is so difficult to understand. everyone likes money. but most people are smart enough to know their leisure activities will not be profitable, and expecting them to be is a major bummer / stress point / distraction -- as is evidenced by your insecure posting ever since MMR was announced. do you expect to make a profit when you take your kids to Disney World?

well, that's one way to go about it but it's not the only way or necessarily the best for everyone. I prefer a firm delineation between business and pleasure. I work hard so that I can do whatever I want with my free time and spare cash.

Dude, to each there own. Hobby decisions usually are a product of someone's disposable income. Someone with less income is more worried about price. Those with Higher incomes and discipled savers/investors are more concerned with enjoyment. That's not 100% but high.

Wrong I dont care what the value of my machines are.

I agree with what you say other than the enjoyment I get from the hobby. I do not have cable and never have. I know people that pay close to 200 and month for cable. I have a super cheap cell plan. I also do not eat out often. I say all of that to say I am in on MMR it is a big deal for me and the family to pay 8 K. We will get enjoyment from the machine though just like people get enjoyment from eating out or cable. I do not want to lose $ but the entire family loves playing pins and MMR is a fun pin to play so it is worth the risk for our family.

In that case is anyone buying any pin now -- used or new -- in what appears to be a downward-trending market, an idiot? If you're buying as an investment I'll agree you're an idiot (but of course you were probably an idiot for investing in a "collectibles" market even when the pin market was hot). If you're buying as a hobbyist, you presumably didn't come in with a break-even mentality. If you expect to break even or make money in this (or pretty much any other) hobby, then you're probably up for disappointment. And you're probably an idiot.

I'll probably not buy another pin from PPS . . . because they cheated me out of my COIN MECHS on MMr!!! I won't forget Rick's quick dismissal of the questioning that followed.

I will give you credit, you do your damnedest to frame an argument in a way that can only benefit your belief or view.

So, people that think MMr is hurting the pin market are complainers? Pretty hard to challenge your stance when the debate is already slanted. If the premise isn't valid from the get go, everything following is challenged through a cracked prism.

Disneyland? Again, an unfair, slanted argument from the start. People know that the good or service disney provides is chiefly memories. Pinball machines are goods. A physical item you possess that can be sold or traded in the future. Up until recently, pinball was a collectable market with an economy of its own. That economy has been turned on its ear. That's what has some "complainers" voicing their concerns.

I'm not sure why your opinion of what the pinball landscape should be is the correct one and any dissenting opinion is not only wrong, but worthy of derision.

I think it's the strangest thing ever that some people actually buy something for entertainment and worry about its resale value. It would be like me worrying what the value of the two quads and trailer I bought..., I couldn't give a shit what they are worth now or when I'm done with them, I bought them to enjoy. Or when I road bikes all the time, picking out a frame based on what I think it's value would be next week, instead of the hand built one I want, riding the piss out of it and never looking back. I'm not even that well off, I make a modest wage compared to probably most on here....

I am deffinatly in the an investment is separate from my toys camp, though I have known people that see everything they buy as an investment. These people usually jump from one thing to the next, usually what's hot at the time. Weird....