Quoted from timballs:

Ghostbusters:
If you miss your super skill shot = jail. Might as well have thrown that quarter in the trash (assuming game is only 75c/play) because you aren't going to break 10m for this ball. Your only choice in the game is to shoot that stupid ghost target which is designed to drain left outlane every time (or if it's designed to go inlane it doesn't matter, because the inlane rails are so short it will hop over!) Then slimer comes down and dear god are you in trouble. If you're lucky enough to be playing a Pro instead of the godforsaken LE you will have to shoot the ball into a shot-that-isn't-a-shot random hole in the middle of the game which maybe sorta goes to pop bumpers??? Then if you can shake it out to the right side you have to hope that the emergency gate works they had to put on the game after it clearly wasn't tested too well. If it works.. your ball will finally return to the flipper. If it doesn't... good luck...
Hopefully during this fiasco you somehow survived 2-5 ghost target shots and 1 slimer shot. Did you do that? great. Now hit slimer 3 more times. Oh by the way he rarely registers now unless you use the older code with no debounce time.. now he registers so often that you get stuck in an infinite Mass Hysteria loop and you can't even lose if you tried. Fun!
Ok so 2 more shots to the stupid slimer toy, well, what else is there to do? Oh. I guess I could hit this captive ball and nice! got 1 hit and regained control.. pass over to the right flipper and shoot the captive ball again and it... bounced into the Scolari Bros. start... oh no the "best game ever" has decided that it wasn't hard enough so it decided to put 2 drop targets up in front of the only 2 shots worth shooting in this game. How do they block them? With airballs! The ball doesn't just reject like a normal game with normal drop targets. no. it hits the glass maybe takes a ride down the left side plastic over the captive ball area into the drain, maybe it hits the LE's habitrail and goes outlane, maybe over a flipper. The fun of ghostbusters is that the better you play the worse you do! If I wanted to play a game where nothing I do determines my outcome and I'm going to waste my time and money I'd just drive down to Atlantic City and play one of the Big Bang Theory slot machines.
There are 3 scores on Ghostbusters.
1m-10m. This only happens to players who don't short plunge. "Play better" by spending 2-3 minutes per ball skillfully draining.
50m-200m. This score is what you get from playing 2-3 modes and 1 worthless storage facility multiball.
1bn+ This is the score you get 1 game out of 50 where you're "not quite sure what I did" but you've deluded yourself into thinking it was cool because when you looked up the score was very large. "The flippers seemed to swap sides that was pretty cool right? I dunno I was in multiball it just kept giving me balls and everything was lit so I shot it."
Now stars has some great features that Ghostbusters doesn't have. The first thing you will notice is that there is rubber on the playfield. This is important because it gives the player a tool to control the ball when they aren't using flippers. Does ghostbusters have rubber? Nope.. not really.. just on the slingshots unless.. oh wait.. you're playing an LE? I'm so sorry. Magna-slings have decided to take away your ability to use the slings to your advantage at all! Fun!
Stars also has: a center post. Now you may be saying... why does this matter? Most games don't have center posts. Put your ghostbusters out anywhere on location for players to play and then check out the floor later. If you have any good players they will be making sweeping slide saves to prevent center drains constantly.. especially if there's a bad scoop feed in either scoop which there has been in every Ghostbusters I've played so far (4: 3 pros 1 LE)
In its current state with code, Ghostbusters is not a top 10 game. If there are no massive changes to the software of the game, there will be no chance it will remain popular. Can the game get better? Perhaps.. but it needs to become playable and fun from start to finish. It needs flow and code. I don't want to play a game where I have to keep checking my surroundings to see if perhaps I died and was sent to a very specific layer of hell for pinball players.

Quoted from jar155:

I get that you're trying to be hyperbolic on purpose, but several things are inaccurate with your complaints. It's easy to get into modes via skill shot. You can miss many times and the skill shot stays lit, so you can keep trying. The skill shot stays lit until you hit a different major shot, which will only happen if you're flailing.

Quoted from dmbjunky:

I think the flipper gap complaint is something I don't understand. I don't have a problem with lightning flippers. I haven't had a problem with Creature or Mustang or any other Trudeau game. I wonder if it's just a mental thing with some people.

Quoted from RGR:

TAF is the best pin ever

Quoted from CrazyLevi:

But see, this sums up the whole GB experience.
You get to start EVERY BALL by soft plunging about 8 times, draining invalidated balls, and struggling to get control so you can take a chance at a skill shot.
And this is just to avoid missed skill shot jail, before you've even taken a meaningful flip.
It's not fun.

Quoted from iceman44:

Some people like old ladies with dentures and no teeth. Gummies.
Some of my favorite times were with my old Intellivision game back in the early 80's. Baseball was awesome!
Coughlins' law "bury the dead, all they do is stink up the joint". What movie?

Quoted from RGR:

TAF is the best pin ever

Quoted from timballs:

Ghostbusters:
If you miss your super skill shot = jail. Might as well have thrown that quarter in the trash (assuming game is only 75c/play) because you aren't going to break 10m for this ball. Your only choice in the game is to shoot that stupid ghost target which is designed to drain left outlane every time (or if it's designed to go inlane it doesn't matter, because the inlane rails are so short it will hop over!) Then slimer comes down and dear god are you in trouble. If you're lucky enough to be playing a Pro instead of the godforsaken LE you will have to shoot the ball into a shot-that-isn't-a-shot random hole in the middle of the game which maybe sorta goes to pop bumpers??? Then if you can shake it out to the right side you have to hope that the emergency gate works they had to put on the game after it clearly wasn't tested too well. If it works.. your ball will finally return to the flipper. If it doesn't... good luck...
Hopefully during this fiasco you somehow survived 2-5 ghost target shots and 1 slimer shot. Did you do that? great. Now hit slimer 3 more times. Oh by the way he rarely registers now unless you use the older code with no debounce time.. now he registers so often that you get stuck in an infinite Mass Hysteria loop and you can't even lose if you tried. Fun!
Ok so 2 more shots to the stupid slimer toy, well, what else is there to do? Oh. I guess I could hit this captive ball and nice! got 1 hit and regained control.. pass over to the right flipper and shoot the captive ball again and it... bounced into the Scolari Bros. start... oh no the "best game ever" has decided that it wasn't hard enough so it decided to put 2 drop targets up in front of the only 2 shots worth shooting in this game. How do they block them? With airballs! The ball doesn't just reject like a normal game with normal drop targets. no. it hits the glass maybe takes a ride down the left side plastic over the captive ball area into the drain, maybe it hits the LE's habitrail and goes outlane, maybe over a flipper. The fun of ghostbusters is that the better you play the worse you do! If I wanted to play a game where nothing I do determines my outcome and I'm going to waste my time and money I'd just drive down to Atlantic City and play one of the Big Bang Theory slot machines.
There are 3 scores on Ghostbusters.
1m-10m. This only happens to players who don't short plunge. "Play better" by spending 2-3 minutes per ball skillfully draining.
50m-200m. This score is what you get from playing 2-3 modes and 1 worthless storage facility multiball.
1bn+ This is the score you get 1 game out of 50 where you're "not quite sure what I did" but you've deluded yourself into thinking it was cool because when you looked up the score was very large. "The flippers seemed to swap sides that was pretty cool right? I dunno I was in multiball it just kept giving me balls and everything was lit so I shot it."
Now stars has some great features that Ghostbusters doesn't have. The first thing you will notice is that there is rubber on the playfield. This is important because it gives the player a tool to control the ball when they aren't using flippers. Does ghostbusters have rubber? Nope.. not really.. just on the slingshots unless.. oh wait.. you're playing an LE? I'm so sorry. Magna-slings have decided to take away your ability to use the slings to your advantage at all! Fun!
Stars also has: a center post. Now you may be saying... why does this matter? Most games don't have center posts. Put your ghostbusters out anywhere on location for players to play and then check out the floor later. If you have any good players they will be making sweeping slide saves to prevent center drains constantly.. especially if there's a bad scoop feed in either scoop which there has been in every Ghostbusters I've played so far (4: 3 pros 1 LE)
In its current state with code, Ghostbusters is not a top 10 game. If there are no massive changes to the software of the game, there will be no chance it will remain popular. Can the game get better? Perhaps.. but it needs to become playable and fun from start to finish. It needs flow and code. I don't want to play a game where I have to keep checking my surroundings to see if perhaps I died and was sent to a very specific layer of hell for pinball players.

Quoted from CaptainNeo:

close. I'd say TZ, but TAF is a close second. They are practically the same game tho.

Quoted from Rarehero:

It's not mental, it's the physical real things that happen on this game...plenty of people are describing how the games layout and quirks lead to cheap drains. Cheap drains are cheap drains - no one is making it up.
Lightning flipper games have less gap tan GB - and, let's say someone didn't like a lightning gap, easy enough to put on regular flippers. Even with carrot flippers the gap is huge.
Also, other Trudeau or lighting flipper games don't have the amount of content/modes as GB. I have BSD and DW (and used to have FT) and love those lighting games. They're challenging but the code is balanced perfectly with the physical challenge. This is GB's problem, very well stated by many people in this thread - it punishes you physically, and on top of that, it punished you with the code. If you actually manage to start a mode (scenic route or skill shot) - and drain, you have to start that fucking mode again and it just makes you feel like you're stuck in molasses hell. The simple
Code tweak of allowing a mode to remain active after a drain (like many ST modes) would alleviate much of the frustration people have. An optional setting to not require mode replay if a mode times out would help even more.
This is a game that everyone SHOULD love. There is too much evidence from pro and casual players to show that poor design decisions were made, no testing was done or else changes would have been made....and now it's up to Dwight & the mod community to save it. No pressure.

Quoted from jlm33:

Love this post.
1) As a mod, because you really explain what are the problems you find with this pin. Good for discussion, agreeing or disagreeing.
2) As a player, because I feel exactly the same. Except I would not have been able to explain it clearly. This is the first recent Stern I really wish to avoid during a tourney.
No, IMO, it's not a top 10 game.

Quoted from OLDPINGUY:

Addressing the Gap, is an easy solve with a center post. The resistance to this is fine, but many games in the past, and recently WOZ ship with a Post. Longer flippers, if one wants. These choices all or none should address any Gap discussion or complaint, would you agree?

Quoted from jar155:

3) It's inaccurate and, as a mod you probably shouldn't be happy that he's intentionally inflammatory and hyperbolic while using inaccurate information. Otherwise, sure.
It's ok to not like a game, but let's give actual real reasons when saying why not.

Quoted from Kiwipinhead:

When top players are complaining, I know its a great pin

Quoted from iceman44:

You guys are cracking me up!
I agree, pins set up poorly on location don't make for a good experience
I guess if I lived up north I could use my GBLE for firewood this winter
You guys can knock yourselves out having fun hammering GB, while you are doing that I'll be having a blast playing my LE!
After beating LMS again yesterday on TWD, GB provides a great challenge to work through
Some funny reviews but you aren't playing the same pin I'm playing. Just saying

Quoted from iceman44:

Isn't that the truth, if it's not cookie cutter left ramp, right ramp, spinner, they don't know what to do with it
Kind of like movie critics, if they like it you know it sucks!

Quoted from Darscot:

My two cents I have played it in two different bars both with about ten pin line ups. Pub 340 in Vancouver and a bar right by the new stadium in Edmonton. It was my least enjoyed pin in both lineups and I pumped far more into it than it deserved. It is far from the best off all time it is very disappointing to play. Like playing a video game online that is rampant with cheap hacks, you occasionally manage a decent game but mostly it's just a waste of time.

Quoted from CrazyLevi:

The location excuse is ridiculous.
Our ghostbuster pro is set up FINE. It's level. Tilt is fair. And we have access to keys to fix or adjust issues.
Game still sucks bro.

Quoted from OLDPINGUY:

Get a couple dozen or hundred games in a tuned Premium or LE, and its a very different Pin experience!

Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:

No Way is GB the best pin ever.

Quoted from jar155:

I can see GB being a very frustration experience for people, as it was for my wife when we first got it. This is a game that takes a while to get honed in on, like The Walking Dead or Iron Man (both of which I find to be more difficult games). But once you figure out how to play safely, it's a whole different game. Getting to that point might not appeal to some, and that's where frustration is going to arise. I'm just at a point in my progression in the hobby that I like tough games that you can only crack wide open rarely.

Quoted from CrazyLevi:

The location excuse is ridiculous.
Our ghostbuster pro is set up FINE. It's level. Tilt is fair. Slimer actually works. And we have access to keys to fix or adjust issues.
Game still sucks bro.
The "top 100 player" burn is also stupid. Just because we don't like it doesn't meant we suck at it. You can dislike a game while sill figuring out a way to muddle through it - sometimes that's what tournament play is all about.
Or I guess I just made this myself?

But enough about ghostbusters...I thought we were discussing Stars?

Quoted from trunchbull:

Unfortunately, the rest of us are tasked with putting in a dollar to press the start button on a game that is probably not tuned in, and is therefore borderline unplayable.

Quoted from rotordave:

It's actually a very cool game. Someone offered me good money for mine last month, couldn't sell it. I play it all the time.
rd

Quoted from Rarehero:

It was the most perfect and accurate explanation of the game's flaws and how it makes players feel.

Quoted from CrazyLevi:

Creature is a masterpiece. I have a hard time reconciling how the same designer came up with ghostbusters.
My only conclusion is that it was either dumb luck, or that Trudeau had a ton of help over at Williams on that particular project.

Quoted from dmbjunky:

He's made some other games that are great. Victory is the first to come to mind. That's a very fun pin with an inventive way of getting multiball.
When I look up his game list, I enjoy Alien Star, Congo, Mustang, and Flintstones a lot. Sometimes games like Creature are just a right combination of the team that makes the pin including the sound and art and the right theme.

Quoted from jar155:

It's ok to not like a game, but let's give actual real reasons when saying why not.

Quoted from Monte:

Wudgie woo! The big bad Trudeau made a hard game. Then don't play it.

Quoted from CrazyLevi:

But admittedly a beat up Stern Stars might not look as impressive in a finished suburban basement as a brand new GBLE. It's about 20X more fun to play though.

Quoted from rotordave:

Stern Stars is about as much fun as you can have playing pinball with your buddies.
For an outlay of $500-$1000 bucks.

Quoted from CrazyLevi:

It's really indisputable that's Stars is better than GB
Stars is absolutely addictive - you always feel like you can do a little better, blow it open. You keep coming back. It virtually impossible to play only 2 or 3 games of stars. It's incredibly easy to end up in an hour-long stars jail.

Quoted from iceman44:

And the pro sucks and is a totally different game

Quoted from Aurich:

There's a big jump down to "sucks", what's so bad about the Pro that is totally changed on the Prem?