(Topic ID: 218501)

Cooling off flippers with a fan?

By KurtWehrli

5 years ago


Topic Heartbeat

Topic Stats

  • 71 posts
  • 32 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 5 years ago by MrBally
  • Topic is favorited by 3 Pinsiders

You

Linked Games

No games have been linked to this topic.

    Topic Gallery

    View topic image gallery

    img_thermal_1528424915358 (resized).jpg
    jd_backbox (resized).jpg
    Screen Shot 2018-06-07 at 1.29.59 PM (resized).png
    image-33.jpg
    extruded-heat-sinks (resized).jpg
    pasted_image (resized).png
    9cb12a113d4380bedb38d5fb51e27342 (resized).jpg
    197a0e7b3bb11cc63d7a8583dee6714a1cbc1f68 (resized).jpg

    Topic index (key posts)

    2 key posts have been marked in this topic

    Display key post list sorted by: Post date | Keypost summary | User name

    Post #41 Explanation of why the flippers heat up to being with. Posted by xTheBlackKnightx (5 years ago)

    Post #50 More technical points and analysis. Good discussion. Posted by mbwalker (5 years ago)


    Topic indices are generated from key posts and maintained by Pinside Editors. For more information, or to become an editor yourself read this post!

    You're currently viewing posts by Pinsider barakandl.
    Click here to go back to viewing the entire thread.

    #24 5 years ago
    Quoted from epthegeek:

    Any game with single wound coils that 'hold' the flipper with a rapid pulse, rather than using a lower power 'hold' coil like WMS does will heat up if you hold the flippers a lot, won't it?

    Seems like games with this setup are the only one I have seen coils heat up to the point is causes a flipper strength problem.

    My baywatch had an issue with coils heating up and causing them lose power. I put a couple of 12v fans taken from old computer boxes and have them blowing on the flipper coils. It really does help with the flipper power giving out after many games in a row.

    I found a cable with 120v on it in the cabinet. I think it was for a bill acceptor or whatever. I used that to connect to a 12v wall wart to power the fans only when the game is on.

    10
    #28 5 years ago
    Quoted from xTheBlackKnightx:

    A flipper assembly cannot be effectively cooled by any type of fan. Keep assemblies clean, reduce slop, maintain the electronics, circuitry, and wiring properly. This includes areas such as excess solder. No shortcuts. Friction is the the number one generation source of excess heat and reduced power, not increases in coil resistance due to the heat itself. The other main reason is improper voltage, which if exceeded shortens a coil's lifecycle or causes burns or melting.
    Historically, the reason coil sleeves were switched from brass to plastic was due to cost, and ease of replacement. Engineers did consider the thermal properties of components, but also durability. I have games that continue to play wonderfully with 60 year components, that were kept serviced.
    Prior to code updates, I upgraded several Stern Whitestar games with WMS flipper components for better performance. The difference was significant. This was a problem with Stern, not historical pinball coil design.
    Do this if you must.

    pasted_image (resized).pngpasted_image (resized).png

    So how does "improper voltage" happen in these DE/Sega/Whitestar games happen. Someone install too powerful of a bridge rectifier *sarcasm*

    I can assure you 100% the fan is effectively cooling them. I forget the exact numbers but the temp differences was measured and it was substantial. When I have league night at my place after hours of play baywatch flippers are still plenty strong enough to rocket the ball around the tall ramp. Before the fan flippers would be very mushy and weak after a heavy play and the ball would not have enough speed to make the watchtower ramp shot.

    Take a coil. Set a DMM to resistance and place across the lugs. Heat the coil up somehow and watch the resistance of the coil change.

    Its not friction heating up the coil its the single wound coil pulse duty cycle. When a coil locks on and burns it isnt the friction that does the burning. The issue with hot coils is strictly how data east pulses the coil for the hold circuit and the strength of coils installed into baywatch. If the duty cycle for the holding was less or DE implemented the dual wound coils like WMS it probably wouldnt be an issue.

    #32 5 years ago
    Quoted from TheLaw:

    Personally I like to go liquid cooled. I take small tuperware containers and use L brackets to attach them to the underside of the PF cradling the coils. I've used water before but it's tough to lift the PF that way so you have to keep a small wet/dry vac handy to suck the water out first. I've been trying a lot of gels that are inside those cooling freezer bags for coolers and such? Not huge success but I'm getting close. I wish I was rich then i would just cut holes in the bottom of the cab and have tiny people stick their heads in and continually blow on the coils to keep them cool. Ha one time they got so hot i had to piss on them to cool them down. Sounds weird i know but it was a real "Red Dawn" moment believe me.

    hah... yeah yeah, i understand that point of view.

    Quoted from Black_Knight:

    Or any poorly adjusted EOS physical or logical switch too. I think the LOTR issue was solved by shortening the eos logic? (maybe)
    xBKx is right, cleaning and proper maintenance is the #1 solution, however, some coil designs are not conclusive to flipper usage.

    True a mechanically sound mech is #1 important to good flippers, but the coil warm up problem is a different thing. Looking at a baywatch book the hold circuit is actually voltage controlled not pwm like i though. There is 50v timed pulse circuit on the flipper board that would not be software controlled. Changing that pulse time would mean messing with the flipper board.

    Perhaps a different coil, like one with a fatter wire gauge wouldn't heat up as fast. Could get creative and drop the hold circuit voltage with a hack... or just point a PC case fans at each flipper coil and be done with it.

    #49 5 years ago
    Quoted from xTheBlackKnightx:

    It is estimated that a clean coil sleeve and polished plunger, and rebuilt parts can increase coil power by an average 25-40% dependent on manufacturer and era. Measured by a force gauge meter after restorations.
    I am not here to teach people physics, they have do that on their own. The fundamentals and properties of electromechanical parts have been known for centuries. I already explain heat conversion in coils which also is based on generated resistance of the wire gauge, not exclusive to the electromagnetic field itself, or friction from unoptimal parts condition.
    I try to open people's eyes to other major causes of weak flippers not just residual coil heat from electromagnetism. I understand the principle of entropy and the law of conservation of energy.
    What people might not know is why pinball machines use "coils" versus other methods of activation. The answer is simply they remain the most efficient method both in speed and electrical energy usage for conversion to mechanical work, except in circumstances where more torque is required, or controlled speed applications.
    Dual wound coils were invented to solve some of these heat problems, but Stern decided to cheap out. An owner can actually retrofit these games, but it is beyond the scope of this thread.
    If someone wants to make a new type of improved flipper assembly or even a better electrmagnetic coil (with baffling or fins), I welcome the innovation. Unfortunately, a patent has already been granted (for magnet coils, not wire coils but the principle is the same in application).
    https://patents.google.com/patent/US20120023969
    So, why is it not already included on games by manufacturers?
    Extra cost for minimal benefit.
    The engineers already know.

    The heart of this thread is lost to you. You are just spouting off technical crap.

    Yes binding causing excessive friction in a coil mech will make problems. This thread is about single wound flipper coils heating up with extended use which causes flip strength problems and the solutions like using a fan to cool them.

    You're currently viewing posts by Pinsider barakandl.
    Click here to go back to viewing the entire thread.

    Reply

    Wanna join the discussion? Please sign in to reply to this topic.

    Hey there! Welcome to Pinside!

    Donate to Pinside

    Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run without any 3rd-party banners or ads, thanks to the support from our visitors? Please consider a donation to Pinside and get anext to your username to show for it! Or better yet, subscribe to Pinside+!


    This page was printed from https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/cooling-of-flippers-with-a-fan?tu=barakandl and we tried optimising it for printing. Some page elements may have been deliberately hidden.

    Scan the QR code on the left to jump to the URL this document was printed from.