(Topic ID: 313967)

Cooler coils prevail

By koji

2 years ago


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    There are 83 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 2.
    #51 2 years ago
    Quoted from wisefwumyogwave:

    It's getting hot in here.

    My sleeves are sticking

    #52 2 years ago
    Quoted from EJS:

    My sleeves are sticking

    I installed some fans on my sleeves for this. It's a little awkward, but it keeps my core temp down.

    #53 2 years ago
    Quoted from wisefwumyogwave:

    It's getting hot in here.

    so take off all our coil sleeves?

    #54 2 years ago
    Quoted from wisefwumyogwave:

    It's getting hot in here.

    Quoted from Zablon:

    so take off all our coil sleeves?

    The coils are gettin' so hot, I wanna take those sleeves off!

    #55 2 years ago
    Quoted from Tuukka:

    The better solution is to get back to the known good system of double winding coils

    JJP Guns and Roses uses dual winding coils, and the thin winding breaks, a lot.
    I’ve replaced 6+ coils on that and WoZ on route.
    And, JJP flippers don’t really have a great feel, , so I don’t really think dual winding is the ultimate fix for the fade that some experience.
    And they were never as perfect as some think, ever play Demolition Man in a tournament where it gets played long hours? The flippers always get weak.

    #56 2 years ago

    Or Mousin around? Just depends on the kinds of shots the game has.

    #57 2 years ago
    Quoted from DNO:

    JJP Guns and Roses uses dual winding coils, and the thin winding breaks, a lot.
    I’ve replaced 6+ coils on that and WoZ on route.
    And, JJP flippers don’t really have a great feel, , so I don’t really think dual winding is the ultimate fix for the fade that some experience.
    And they were never as perfect as some think, ever play Demolition Man in a tournament where it gets played long hours? The flippers always get weak.

    Interesting. I've never experienced my demo man get that bad.. But certainly it is a title where it can be very frustrating with a weakened left flipper trying to make the claw ramp... I don't doubt it.. Esp if it is getting played heavily.. Pf gets a bit dirty, you really need those flipper coils to be 100%.

    That's what I was thinking with the modern sterns.. It seems to be a solution to turn down the flipper power quite a bit.. Since doing this on my sword of rage, I don't encounter the fade anymore.. However it does mean that you really notice any slowdown due to pf dirt.. And it forces you to make cleaner shots, perhaps raising the difficulty in that way.. Which is not a bad thing.

    Still for competition obviously it's important to have a threshold and try to mitigate fade as much as possible.

    #58 2 years ago
    Quoted from homebrood:

    Fans blow around the black dust that forms from all the moving parts. Might cause other problems blowing the dirt around and get on everything in the game eventually. Should just make a software mod, so the game stops for cooling breaks automatically when the flippers get too warm! GameBreak! Please wait for flipper coil cooling! Game will resume 30 minutes! LOL!

    Yeah we wait a minute after someone's tilts the machine.. Lol.. It does seem to take a while for the coils to come back to normal temps tho.

    #59 2 years ago

    Hmm thoughts on ducting air from the bottom cab vents to the coil coolers? That way perhaps just one 12cm fan pulls fresh air in and blows at the flipper coils.

    Need to test inside cab temp I guess.

    #60 2 years ago

    Stern can fix this by adding a score multiplier based on coil temperature. The less you hold, the cooler the coil stays and the higher the scoring multiplier is. Lemons to lemonade.

    Looks like I just saved Stern from a PR nightmare. Gary, you’re welcome, call me.

    (ps. $200 fans are stupid, if you disagree I have some fans to sell you)

    #61 2 years ago
    Quoted from sheahan2:

    Installed a 12v adjustable speed fan with heatsink to the Left Flipper (number 1), nothing on the right flipper (number 2) and had Ambient temperature as a reference (number 3). After 45 minutes of play I peaked at around 170 deg F on the right flipper and just under 90 deg F on the left flipper.
    I could barely hit the left ramp after 45 minutes. Heatsink fans is a huge improvement! I'm going to be making a set of these for every machine!
    [quoted image]

    Wow, you guys posted a lot in a short time.

    So last year I started down the same path as this conversation is going. I found the radial heat sinks with fans to be the best bet and tried the radial heat sinks without fans just to see how much they helped (obviously not as much as with fans and my goal was to find a better solution than whats out there). So I tried a handful of different fan and heat sink types ranging from a $20 version to a $5 heat sink. Came up with the 380/540 RC heat sink with fan as the best option. Here is the kicker, the cabinet temperature does increase significantly and would benefit from a cabinet fan. The increase in cabinet temperature was the only reason the flippers increased in temperature. On the question of temperature deltas across the coil windings, I could only measure surface temperatures.

    So for anyone who wants to make one of these, the 540 heat sink fan is the way to go for most coils. I went with a 3 way splitter and then powered it off a 12V to 6V converter from a PBL power supply. In addition to the heat sink, to promote thermal conduction and ease installation, I added a thermal conductive tape to the bottom of the fans.

    PXL_20210325_010123392 (1) (resized).jpgPXL_20210325_010123392 (1) (resized).jpg
    #62 2 years ago
    Quoted from sheahan2:

    Wow, you guys posted a lot in a short time.
    So last year I started down the same path as this conversation is going. I found the radial heat sinks with fans to be the best bet and tried the radial heat sinks without fans just to see how much they helped (obviously not as much as with fans and my goal was to find a better solution than whats out there). So I tried a handful of different fan and heat sink types ranging from a $20 version to a $5 heat sink. Came up with the 380/540 RC heat sink with fan as the best option. Here is the kicker, the cabinet temperature does increase significantly and would benefit from a cabinet fan. The increase in cabinet temperature was the only reason the flippers increased in temperature. On the question of temperature deltas across the coil windings, I could only measure surface temperatures.
    So for anyone who wants to make one of these, the 540 heat sink fan is the way to go for most coils. I went with a 3 way splitter and then powered it off a 12V to 6V converter from a PBL power supply. In addition to the heat sink, to promote thermal conduction and ease installation, I added a thermal conductive tape to the bottom of the fans.[quoted image]

    Good stuff!

    So, cab temperatures are the big thing you noted? I like the idea of pulling from the back underside vents when available.. perhaps ducted to pull the cool air to the front.

    Thanks for the info about the 540.. that's great.. looks like a great fit.. I'm still tempted to pull the paper wrapper off for the added cooling.. even just having the fan to blow on the last layer of wrap has to have a lot more surface area to help with the cooling?

    #64 2 years ago
    Quoted from sheahan2:

    The increase in cabinet temperature was the only reason the flippers increased in temperature.

    How much did it rise in the cabinet with the heatsinks vs. without?

    #65 2 years ago

    10 deg cab temp rise (Ambient temperature)results in 10 deg flipper temperature rise. The big contributor was the flipper itself, sorry if I didn't make that clear. 74 deg difference with the flipper fan and a 10 deg difference with the ambient temperature.

    #66 2 years ago

    I don't see it making much difference, the flipper is still putting out the same total amount of heat if you play it for 2 minutes or two hours. A fan on the coil is just distributing it faster thru the cabinet. It's not like playing the flippers as is for an hour isn't going to heat the cabinet up just as much on average.

    #67 2 years ago
    Quoted from wisefwumyogwave:

    It's getting hot in here.

    Quoted from EJS:

    My sleeves are sticking.

    Quoted from koji:

    I installed some fans on my sleeves for this.

    More effective to place the fan at the base of your neck and fold the collar over it.
    A lot of Pinsiders seem to get hot under the collar.

    #68 2 years ago

    Welp, people who sell this might be pissed, here is my personal file for a 3d printed flipper coil fan cooler.

    https://www.tinkercad.com/things/376D1kUwxCO

    Flip it on it's side and don't forget to add supports.

    Please feel free to use it, I charge a whopping $0

    Here is the link for some good fans too
    https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07PYWVPMY

    You will need longer machine screws as the ones that come with the fans are not long enough to fit the cooler.

    #69 2 years ago
    Quoted from koji:

    Hmm thoughts on ducting air from the bottom cab vents to the coil coolers? That way perhaps just one 12cm fan pulls fresh air in and blows at the flipper coils.
    Need to test inside cab temp I guess.

    You could

    Quoted from PapaBless:

    Welp, people who sell this might be pissed, here is my personal file for a 3d printed flipper coil fan cooler.
    https://www.tinkercad.com/things/376D1kUwxCO
    Flip it on it's side and don't forget to add supports.
    Please feel free to use it, I charge a whopping $0
    Here is the link for some good fans too
    amazon.com link »
    You will need longer machine screws as the ones that come with the fans are not long enough to fit the cooler.

    You should add that to the 3D printing thread.

    https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/3d-printing-sharing-thread-lets-better-the-hobby

    #70 2 years ago
    Quoted from PapaBless:

    Welp, people who sell this might be pissed, here is my personal file for a 3d printed flipper coil fan cooler.
    https://www.tinkercad.com/things/376D1kUwxCO
    Flip it on it's side and don't forget to add supports.
    Please feel free to use it, I charge a whopping $0
    Here is the link for some good fans too
    amazon.com link »
    You will need longer machine screws as the ones that come with the fans are not long enough to fit the cooler.

    Hopefully it makes them up their game a bit... so much in the 3D printing community, and in the pinball community is given for free, and the communities are that much stronger because of it.. it can be frustrating to see people try to profit from trivial mods... and quite frankly, give people the option to DIY or order a kit, and you'll probably get the same if not more orders for providing the convenience of the kit.

    Anyway, I've orders some sensors and some of those 540 heatsinks and fan types.. el cheapos from China so in a month or two, unless someone beats me to it, I'll have some updates for the thread

    #71 2 years ago
    Quoted from koji:

    Hopefully it makes them up their game a bit... so much in the 3D printing community, and in the pinball community is given for free, and the communities are that much stronger because of it.. it can be frustrating to see people try to profit from trivial mods... and quite frankly, give people the option to DIY or order a kit, and you'll probably get the same if not more orders for providing the convenience of the kit.

    The guy who makes speaker leds wasn't thrilled when others shared their own free versions of a bracket to print. Worth a read for some drama
    https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/3d-printing-sharing-thread-lets-better-the-hobby/page/2#post-5996958

    #72 2 years ago
    Quoted from sheahan2:

    Wow, you guys posted a lot in a short time.
    Came up with the 380/540 RC heat sink with fan as the best option.

    That's pretty slick. I'm tempted to try it out.

    Quoted from sheahan2:

    Here is the kicker, the cabinet temperature does increase significantly and would benefit from a cabinet fan.

    Chromed heatpipe side armor with piezoelectric heatsink topper incoming?

    #73 2 years ago

    Baywatch plays great for about 30 minutes. If I have league night or whatever and Baywatch gets played constantly eventually the tall left ramp would be hard to hit. I put in a CPU case fan in there blowing on the flip coils and it pretty much eliminates the issue. You can still make the ramp after constant play.

    Quoted from Tuukka:

    The better solution is to get back to the known good system of double winding coils.

    I wonder if there is a good way to do this while retaining the ability the ability to CPU control the flipper coils. Probably would need to recreate the flipper driver board in the cabinet and do something like WMS where they have a hold transistor and a high power side transistor.

    #74 2 years ago
    Quoted from bigguybbr:

    The guy who makes speaker leds wasn't thrilled when others shared their own free versions of a bracket to print. Worth a read for some drama
    https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/3d-printing-sharing-thread-lets-better-the-hobby/page/2#post-5996958

    I don't blame him, but this is the free market at work. He can be upset but he can't do anything about it.

    #75 2 years ago
    Quoted from snakesnsparklers:

    I don't blame him, but this is the free market at work. He can be upset but he can't do anything about it.

    While registering for a patent in expensive, it is the only real expectation of protection or enforcement of a designs intellectual property. Without it, you can't expect that others wont come to the market with competing copies. It is also questionable as to if a patent would even be granted for something as simple as a bracket.

    #76 2 years ago
    Quoted from bigguybbr:

    While registering for a patent in expensive, it is the only real expectation of protection or enforcement of a designs intellectual property. Without it, you can't expect that others wont come to the market with competing copies. It is also questionable as to if a patent would even be granted for something as simple as a bracket.

    And I think a patent's around $50K-70K, based on my last patent. Have 2 fans that maybe 1 blows and the other sucks air? You're probably off the hook on infringement for the original patent.

    Sometimes patents are just for bragging rights.

    #77 2 years ago
    Quoted from radium:

    Stern can fix this by adding a score multiplier based on coil temperature. The less you hold, the cooler the coil stays and the higher the scoring multiplier is. Lemons to lemonade.

    I would think that the primary stroke would cause more heat than the energy needed to hold.

    #78 2 years ago
    Quoted from bigguybbr:

    Yes it must be solid or you will have an incredibly weak flipper. You need that moving mass to produce enough force to launch a ball. Remember Force= Mass x Acceleration

    Years back I remember someone drilling holes through the flipper coil stops to allow the air to escape and be replaced with cool air each time the flipper actuated rather than just compressing and heating the air every time.

    #79 2 years ago
    Quoted from mbwalker:

    And I think a patent's around $50K-70K, based on my last patent. Have 2 fans that maybe 1 blows and the other sucks air? You're probably off the hook on infringement for the original patent.
    Sometimes patents are just for bragging rights.

    A fan blowing on a solenoid coil is an industry standard cooling technique. Hard to patent common place practice. Same with addling lights to speakers. It's been in use in car audio and portable stereo applications for 20 years now.

    #80 2 years ago
    Quoted from John_I:

    Years back I remember someone drilling holes through the flipper coil stops to allow the air to escape and be replaced with cool air each time the flipper actuated rather than just compressing and heating the air every time.

    It might reduce back pressure ever so slightly, but there is enough room between the plunger and coil sleep to let the air escape. They probably only succeeded in reducing the life of their coil stop

    #81 2 years ago
    Quoted from John_I:

    Years back I remember someone drilling holes through the flipper coil stops to allow the air to escape and be replaced with cool air each time the flipper actuated rather than just compressing and heating the air every time.

    Wouldn’t the air just spray out the opposite end of the stop under normal flips? I don’t think any air gets compressed

    #82 2 years ago
    Quoted from bigguybbr:

    A fan blowing on a solenoid coil is an industry standard cooling technique. Hard to patent common place practice. Same with addling lights to speakers. It's been in use in car audio and portable stereo applications for 20 years now.

    I don't disagree. Sort of the whole reason for the invention of a fan in the first place!

    2 years later
    #83 15 days ago

    Just wanted to share my success using the RC heat sink and fan for resolving an over heating coil issue on a Capcom Airborne up/down left ramp coil.
    When qualified, the left ramp coil is energized to keep the ramp down for as long as it takes to shoot the ball up the ramp. After a few games of the coil being energized, the coil overheats causing the ramp so slowly raise to the up position and then stay in the up position until a game off cool down of the coil is performed.
    The heat sink and fan assembly I used is a top of the coil positioned fan and uses 5v DC.
    I pinned a JST connector to connect with the power/ground connector of the fan and installed power/ground wire to the JST pins.

    Fan (resized).JPGFan (resized).JPG

    Fan Connector (resized).JPGFan Connector (resized).JPG

    I then routed and pinned the power/ground wire to a Molex connector and installed it on the unused J4 connector of the power distribution board in the back box. I also installed labeling to both ends of the wiring.

    Power Board Connector (resized).JPGPower Board Connector (resized).JPG

    I confirmed that the fan was running with the game powered on and played the game for many hours at a time with the up/down left ramp functioning correctly.
    The install has been functioning for over a month now, and the longevity of the modification will be determined with continued game play over time.
    I'm supper happy to have the ramp functioning consistently as it is a crucial part of the advancement in most all of the modes in the game.

    There are 83 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 2.

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