(Topic ID: 149881)

Convince me why I should get into EM's


By dudah

3 years ago



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  • Latest reply 3 years ago by Otaku
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    There are 245 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 5.
    #1 3 years ago

    Backstory: I was born in 1985, which makes me 30 as of today. I remember pinball and classic arcades from being a kid. My parents never let me have a Nintendo growing up, so I never really got into video games. I got into pinball about 4 years ago, collecting shortly thereafter. I loved the physical aspect of the game. Being an electrical engineer with some borderline OCD tendencies, I quickly fell in love with cleaning/fixing/restoring/modding games. Arguably more than playing them

    Having bought and sold a few games, and kept on to some favorites; these days I seek modern SS games with deep rulesets and beautiful artwork. RBION is the latest addition, my profile will reflect the rest.

    I see tons of EM's on craigslist. I know even more are out there rotting in some guy's garage.
    From my perspective EM guys seem to be a whole and mostly separate part of the pinball community.
    I have a deep respect for the history of pinball and how we got here today.
    The artwork and electrical design is a snapshot of Americana long gone, which I get.
    But as for the gameplay - I just don't get it.
    I assume for older guys that enjoyed these games when they were young, it's a lot of nostalgia.
    From my point of view, they're heavy, slow and difficult to fix dinosaurs.
    On top of that, there are SO MANY titles, with very similar layouts, how does one determine what's a "good" game?

    I've only played a couple of EM's at expo/MGC and quickly grew bored and moved onto something else.
    So please tell me what I'm missing.

    17
    #2 3 years ago

    If you don't like pinball, you don't like pinball. I can't convince you to like it if you can't....

    #3 3 years ago
    Quoted from dudah:

    tell me what I'm missing.

    Quoted from dudah:

    heavy, slow and difficult to fix dinosaurs.

    11
    #4 3 years ago

    You either get it or you don't Dude. No sweat if you don't.
    It is a ZEN moment and for a fast paced world it is nice to chill and appreciate the simple things ( and the art ).
    Easy to understand, hard to master. That is what makes a great EM.

    12
    #5 3 years ago

    They are very hard to master. Way more challenging then the new ones. That, the simple gameplay and the cool art makes them very nice to play.
    It's like cars. The new ones go faster, consume less gas, more comfortable, etc etc.... but the old ones are cool.

    #6 3 years ago
    Quoted from dudah:

    I seek...games with deep rulesets

    That's your answer right there. EMs don't have deep rulesets with long ball times, the challenge is in the layout and doing a few difficult things while you have the chance. They appeal to people who like ball games rather than the technological side of the game.

    #7 3 years ago

    If you understand, no explanation is necessary.
    If you don't understand, no explanation is possible.

    #8 3 years ago

    An eloquent response Squirrel, but dudah has an open mind (judging by the query) so perhaps some encouragement is called for. I would suggest: go to the Pinball Internet Machine Database and read comments on various machines from different em eras. Gradually, you will gain some understanding of features and gameplay that appeal to owners. In some respects they are more difficult to fix than modern machines, in some ways they are easier. Maybe make a shortlist of a dozen games (single player - lighter, less to fix) and splash out on one when the opportunity arises. Don't ignore titles not on your list - if they don't get lots of 'negative' comment on the Database, might well be worth considering. Worst case - you get one, fix it if necessary, still don't "get it" - sell it.

    #9 3 years ago

    To those responding, what criteria do you use to rate a EM with good gameplay vs an EM with bad gameplay?

    #10 3 years ago

    positives:

    no boot time. seriously, flip the power switch and press start.

    you can often put in a game while waiting for your SS to boot.

    skills development. You think SS games can be tough at times, try an EM.

    more addictive than crack-er jacks.

    When you get an EM singing and roll a tough one, you'll feel awesome and it won't take 45 minutes, but if it takes ten you're the bomb.

    #11 3 years ago

    hakf my pins are EM and half are dMDs. I split time pretty evenly between the two. The difference for me is you are an operator playing a SS pin. Whereas playing an EM gives you a feeling you are part of the pin.

    Btw I am pretty sure a wedge head is lighter thane a solid state.

    #12 3 years ago
    Quoted from electricsquirrel:

    If you understand, no explanation is necessary.
    If you don't understand, no explanation is possible.

    I'm sorry. That was kind of a smart-ass response.

    EM's are just fun. Fun to look at, fun to work on and fun to play.
    They are basically a big box full of on-off switches. Its all out in the open...nothing mysterious you can see how everything works!
    E

    #14 3 years ago

    You should not get into EMs, please forward all leads on EM machines to me so that I can protect you from them.

    10
    #15 3 years ago

    I suggest you go to a good pinball show with good EMs. Not just average EMs, but restored models that play as they should. A lot of people play sub-par EMs and don't like them, not understanding that they are 40+ years old and tired. If you play nicely restored models, you're bar gets set properly, and you're opinion on EMs will probably be far different. I would like to suggest our show, the Ann Arbor Michigan pinball show (may 13-15), as a good play to explore fully restored and properly playing EMs. http://vfwpinball.com

    -35
    #16 3 years ago
    Quoted from dudah:

    But as for the gameplay - I just don't get it.
    I assume for older guys that enjoyed these games when they were young, it's a lot of nostalgia.
    From my point of view, they're heavy, slow and difficult to fix dinosaurs.
    On top of that, there are SO MANY titles, with very similar layouts, how does one determine what's a "good" game?
    I've only played a couple of EM's at expo/MGC and quickly grew bored and moved onto something else.
    So please tell me what I'm missing.

    You're not missing anything and pretty much nailed it. In about 2-3 minutes you probably saw what there is to see on every EM. Those were the best they could do with the technology of the time. We have far surpassed that garbage which is why those types of games aren't made today.

    #17 3 years ago

    born in 86.
    I like the comment that says its like old cars that is spot on. I d very much love to have a 64-66 mustang , it doesnt go as fast as the new ones, doesnt have all the tech in it, smells of diesel but still.
    you get the point

    less complicated does not mean less challenging.

    its vintage, art is great, cab is painted, you get a backglass not a translite.

    dont get me wrong i like everything in pinball what i mean is if you really like pinball all generations have an interest.
    of course if you can only have one pin maybe the newer ones a more suited cause they have more "game"

    you like restoring well here you go, plenty of restoring to do on EMs, cheaper ,easier than SS cause no electronics , an EM will always come back to life.

    only thing is , dont play on your newer stern and then on the EM, cause you will miss the lightshow and sound, and it will feel slower too.
    gotta keep your EMs steep not flat BTW, so its harder and faster.

    just get one , restore it and see for yourself. you wont even lose money if in the end you decide you dont like it.

    #18 3 years ago
    Quoted from dudah:

    Backstory: I was born in 1985, which makes me 30 as of today. I remember pinball and classic arcades from being a kid. My parents never let me have a Nintendo growing up, so I never really got into video games. I got into pinball about 4 years ago, collecting shortly thereafter. I loved the physical aspect of the game. Being an electrical engineer with some borderline OCD tendencies, I quickly fell in love with cleaning/fixing/restoring/modding games. Arguably more than playing them
    Having bought and sold a few games, and kept on to some favorites; these days I seek modern SS games with deep rulesets and beautiful artwork. RBION is the latest addition, my profile will reflect the rest.
    I see tons of EM's on craigslist. I know even more are out there rotting in some guy's garage.
    From my perspective EM guys seem to be a whole and mostly separate part of the pinball community.
    I have a deep respect for the history of pinball and how we got here today.
    The artwork and electrical design is a snapshot of Americana long gone, which I get.
    But as for the gameplay - I just don't get it.
    I assume for older guys that enjoyed these games when they were young, it's a lot of nostalgia.
    From my point of view, they're heavy, slow and difficult to fix dinosaurs.
    On top of that, there are SO MANY titles, with very similar layouts, how does one determine what's a "good" game?
    I've only played a couple of EM's at expo/MGC and quickly grew bored and moved onto something else.
    So please tell me what I'm missing.

    As Clay said, playing them at shows doesn't mean much. It depends on the upkeep/restoration level of the game. Playing a properly maintained game, you'll find it's not necessarily slow. Are they slower than DMDs? Pretty much, but there's still plenty of games that have plenty of speed to them, and they are more challenging than you might think they are.

    But in the end, if you need convincing, you don't get it, and you probably never will.

    #19 3 years ago

    I own an assortment of machines styles and ages. I love working on EM's. They are almost always salvageable if complete. They offer unique repair challenges, no test mode, things can be intermittent, etc. But they really stimulate the problem solving center of the brain for me.

    Then playing them, some are more exciting that others but when you get a good game you will know it. You will be "play testing" it for much longer than needed. Once you get the flippers and board angle dialed in, you will find they have shots that look simple but can be maddening to hit consistently, and isn't that what we all love about pinball? The constant "so close" that we are all chasing.

    11
    #20 3 years ago

    Here's why I like EM's:

    - It's pinball at its most fundamental level. No ramps, no running soundtrack, no elaborate animations, just you and the ball working toward that Special.

    - Having EMs in a collection shows an appreciation for the broad history of the medium. They may seem lo-fi to our 21st century eyes, but there's a lot of beautiful design, art and innovative engineering in those old games.

    - There's a world of different styles to explore within the realm of EM's. Woodrails, wedgeheads and 3" flipper games are all completely different experiences. Personally, I enjoy the challenge of a fun puzzle-based wedgehead.

    - Switch relays and EM schematics may look confusing, but problems are a lot easier to diagnose and fix than a circuit board (IMO). Most parts are still very easy to find.

    - If you enjoy the restoration process, there are plenty of opportunities out there. Gottlieb built their machines like tanks and they often clean up really well.

    - As stated above, they have an inaccurate reputation for being slow. You can easily set it to high tap, increase the incline and upgrade coils to get more zip into an already exciting game.

    - They're relatively cheap. Even a high-end restored EM will sell for a fraction of a new Stern or a 90's Williams.

    Check out some titles on the IPDB and figure out what features and themes you like and don't like. Then search for game play videos on You Tube - nearly every game has at least one.

    #21 3 years ago

    Why even try to? Looks like your mind is made up. Some people like em's, others ss and many liking both

    #22 3 years ago

    give it a try like i did. if it doesn't work out, sell the game. that is what i did (jumping jack)

    #23 3 years ago

    They certainly look cool but why bother? Modern dmd pinball has better playfield components, display animations, real sound, music, better rules, and so on. Some of the older stuff has great art and charm but why waste valuable space in your home unless you have room for a large collection. I get that it's nostalgic for some and a more relaxed form of pinball but sitting their watching a ball slowly roll back in forth is not that entertaining. They are cheap - I will give them that.

    #24 3 years ago

    I don't like Kale. It's disgusting.

    But convince me to like it.

    #25 3 years ago

    you shouldn't .. it leaves more for the rest of us. ( em's not kale)

    27
    #26 3 years ago

    One big reason the "EMs suck har har" crowd has never gotten it is because they've never played where there are any stakes. It's easy to walk up to an EM, play 2 balls, say "well I've seen it all that was boring and stupid" and then go play that AC/DC you've already played a million times.

    Get a crew of other EM-haters together and play some dollar games. You'll want to beat your friends and you'll want to lean how to play it better. I guarantee after an hour of that, you'll "get it." You'll understand how to play it, you'll get into the rules, and you'll get into the competitive aspect of it. When there's actually something on the line, you get away from the "I like pinball because things flash or cheap toys move" aspect of it and you'll open your mind.

    #27 3 years ago

    I find EMs to be incredibly challenging. Short games usually - especially with features (or lack of) like no ball saves, tilt doesn't kill the ball but kills the entire game, and gobble holes. Competing on one is similar to other simple games like pitching horshoes. The old "easy to learn and difficult to master".

    From a technical & repair aspect, they really fascinate me in the internal workings, how they made gears and relays perform like a rudimentary computer.

    #28 3 years ago

    I really don't think it's an age/nostalgia thing that makes people like EMs more than anything else. I'm 17 and typically enjoy playing EMs more than solid states.

    There's a simple joy that comes from the quick and challenging games that EMs have to offer. I can play the same one over and over again (assuming it's a good game), because I always feel like I can do just a bit better. With modern solid states I don't really get that same feeling, because I'll play one 10 minute long grindy game and then be sick of it and not want to play again for a while.

    #29 3 years ago

    Two words: The Ladies.

    #30 3 years ago

    Its just a personal taste thing my wife is 33 and prefers em's over the new stuff and repair wise you have to know what you are doing there's no "pull the board and send it off"

    #31 3 years ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    One big reason the "EMs suck har har" crowd has never gotten it is because they've never played where there are any stakes. It's easy to walk up to an EM, play 2 balls, say "well I've seen it all that was boring and stupid" and then go play that AC/DC you've already played a million times.
    Get a crew of other EM-haters together and play some dollar games. You'll want to beat your friends and you'll want to lean how to play it better. I guarantee after an hour of that, you'll "get it." You'll understand how to play it, you'll get into the rules, and you'll get into the competitive aspect of it. When there's actually something on the line, you get away from the "I like pinball because things flash or cheap toys move" aspect of it and you'll open your mind.

    I agree. I never really played EM's until Pinburgh where you are forced to in every round at a competitive level. I got a much better appreciation for them after that and plan on owning a few once the space permits.

    #32 3 years ago

    To OP, I would definitely put at least one EM in your line up and give it a little time. Don't get bored and bail...your feeling about the game will change if you grab a decent EM. Unfortunately, there are quite a few bad ones out there (sounds, play quality, etc.) Like others have said, do your research first, and play a few to see which you like before buying.

    I always try to keep at least one (or two, or three, or four) EM's in my collection. Even when playing my BF, BH, BSD, POTO or other games I've had in the past, I love jumping onto an EM to "take a break." As many other posters have said, the rule set is often simplistic on an EM, but very challenging to accomplish. It's nice sometimes to get 10 points off a pop bumper hit, instead of 10 million.

    I would recommend a Gottlieb wedgehead. Even a player's condition game has excellent chimes, and these are amongst the smoothest playing EM's you will ever come across. Even when I'm pounding my DMD and SS games, I'll jump onto my Sure Shot for a quick game or two (or three). The goal - hit all the rollovers to light the rack of billiard balls in the center of the PF. Trust me...on this game, more difficult than it sounds. Mindless fun. I also have a cherry Bally Hokus Pokus, which is excellent to play. Three spinners that you can hit all day, easy rule set, and one of the better Bally EM games (chimes, colors, layout, etc.).

    Give an EM a chance. One in your collection is always good for the older crowd or relatives when they come over also. That was what they grew up with, and they often don't want to be bothered with newer games with complicated, deeper rule sets.

    #33 3 years ago

    EM machines tend to be MUCH more difficult, and do require an entirely different approach to playing. Many of the older games do not allow ball control, so a lot of shots were run n gun. Progress towards the special/extra ball were not saved between balls, so you drained, you started over.

    Personally I do not find them harder to work on than SS games. In fact quite the opposite. I imagine many here are scared off because it seems one of the big mantras here on pinside for a lot of people is 'replace the board, call it a day.' (Even if the issue is not on the board.) An EM you need to know how to trouble shoot and adjust. The nice thing is once they are all dialed in, so long as they get played they are very reliable. (Example: My grandma has had a Williams Double Play Pitch n Bat in her basement since the 60s. Gets played a ton, never had any issues. FINALLY had a 10s score reel than would not progress. Not bad after almost 50 years!)

    Finally....by turning your back on EM games, you are missing out on SO MANY different games besides pinball. Gun games (light and projectile), bowlers, pitch n bats, etc..... Anyone who says that all EM games suck has not fully jumped into the pool, so to speak.

    11
    #34 3 years ago

    My Royal Guard from 1968 has got great gameplay with what was "state of the art" technology in the 60's using moving snap targets.. Even the youngsters love it, plus the challenge of keeping it "Tip top" around the relay contacts.

    BB

    images.tapatalk_cdn.com_15_12_06_fc5a3d9391c5faf88286d91b3ea0c9a7_(resized).jpg

    #35 3 years ago

    I grew up in the 70's/80's loved EM's as kid, bored to death by them now

    #36 3 years ago
    Quoted from BanditBoy:

    My Royal Guard from 1968 has got great gameplay with what was "state of the art" technology in the 60's using moving snap targets

    That is a nice friggin example of that game...looks fantastic!

    #37 3 years ago
    Quoted from Colsond3:

    That is a nice friggin example of that game...looks fantastic!

    His wife, for some reason, doesn't like circles. Because the game is missing them in the repaint. But other than that, it looks great.

    #38 3 years ago
    Quoted from markmon:

    You're not missing anything and pretty much nailed it. In about 2-3 minutes you probably saw what there is to see on every EM. Those were the best they could do with the technology of the time. We have far surpassed that garbage which is why those types of games aren't made today.

    Nice that other people recognized the utter douchebaggery in this post.

    Another reason to like them. The game is the game. It's done. There's no constant, whining "when will they complete the code" posts on here about EM games.

    #39 3 years ago

    When I first got into pinball, I didn't like EM's....for years. After playing a few in a tourny and at a friends house...I really want one. You need to play some, they are a different beast in play and features, rules and end goals than DMD games.

    #40 3 years ago
    Quoted from EMsInKC:

    Nice that other people recognized the utter douchebaggery in this post.

    Same shit diff'rent year for Markmon.

    Quoted from dudah:

    I quickly fell in love with cleaning/fixing/restoring/modding games. Arguably more than playing them

    Since you like modding games more than playing them you're obviously not going to get into EMs. Just move on.

    #41 3 years ago

    I'm in my early 30s and don't dislike EM machines... I just dislike boring machines whether it's an EM, early SS, or clunky Gottlieb DMD. I'm like the OP and prefer modern DMD games over just about everything (besides System 11s).

    Some EM machines I've played in the past have been an absolute snoozefest with virtually nothing to shoot for. There's a small arcade 1 mile away from my house with a FT and BF. Both real fun DMDs. However, the pizza place only 1/2 mile from my house put in a Royal Flush 2 years ago.

    That game was great because there was a clear objective with all the drop targets. Then the game is sold and it's replaced with a Target Alpha, containing even MORE drops (more drops to me is like more cowbell!), beautiful art, and more flippers. The game was a riot to play and teaches all sorts of flipper shots. I probably learned more from Target Alpha than I've learned on any other single machine.

    If you're only exposed to wide open / empty EM's with basic art you probably won't be a fan. But you know what I don't like...? Every early SS game that has the same wide open PF, annoying chirps instead of nice chimes and bells, 80s art (retro 70s art looked better IMO), and the same basic set of rules. At least in that head to head comparison, the EM feels like it has some charm. And I'd rather play a semi-popular EM than Laser Ball, Cue Ball Wizard, Rescue 911, Paragon (yeah, I went there), or Scorpion. And if you can find an EM with some really cool features like Fireball or Four Million B.C., you'll see that there was pinball innovation back then. But to each their own.

    #42 3 years ago

    Born in 84
    What got me into them were EMs with a heavy amount of drop targets. It also doesn't hurt that the wife (who never played MM, MB, AFM, etc when I had them) will walk up to Quick Draw or Fireball almost daily and will ask to play those with me. It got her playing the newer games (she currently has GC on GoT) but will jump to Paragon and Atlantis right after...

    #43 3 years ago
    Quoted from markmon:

    You're not missing anything and pretty much nailed it. In about 2-3 minutes you probably saw what there is to see on every EM. Those were the best they could do with the technology of the time. We have far surpassed that garbage which is why those types of games aren't made today.

    I'll rise to the bait

    One of the issues is that most people haven't played em's that are set up to play exactly as they did back in the day.

    Next - re 2- 3 mins on a game.

    You obviously haven't played pre 1955 Gottlieb games that have multiple ways to win and jackpot specials.

    Play 1955 Sweet Add A Line and see how long it takes you to complete the game. Bet it takes longer than getting to Tron Portal Could take you months

    Complete the game and there is a 26 credit jackpot that sounds like a machine going off.

    I really don't think any pinball player could fail to get a buzz if they achieved this rare goal.

    Pre 1955 Gotts are in my opinion the best em's ever made, head and shoulders better than anything that came later.

    It's just that hardly anyone has played them, understands them, and when they do they are knackered and slow.

    #44 3 years ago
    Quoted from dudah:

    there are SO MANY titles, with very similar layouts

    Are you talking about DMDs now? EMs have a much better varity of playfield layouts especially the lower half. I'm not going to try to covince you of anything but I like two inch flipper games from the 60s and prior. Long flipper EMs can be just as boring as modern games can. That being said I recently picked up an RBION too and that is the most recent game I care to own.

    16
    #45 3 years ago

    There used to be a bunch of DMDs where these are now and I couldn't be happier with the change.

    good-stuff_(resized).jpg

    #46 3 years ago

    Instead of trying a EM pin why don't you give an early SS pin a try. I would recomment a Gottlieb system 1 (Countdown, Joker Poker).

    #47 3 years ago
    Quoted from EMsInKC:

    His wife, for some reason, doesn't like circles. Because the game is missing them in the repaint. But other than that, it looks great.

    Lol, yeah that's so true as you know already EMsInKC.. After months of begging to have one in the house and doing a paint job at work she didn't want the big blue circle on the cabinet or the smaller one on the backbox because it didn't go with magnolia walls??

    Women are very strange individuals.

    pin_side_(resized).jpg

    #48 3 years ago

    Kinda had the same feelings as the OP. I got into a league and played some EM's and it changed my mind. I always felt EM's played slow and floaty. I found EM's can be fast and challening - they just have to be set up right i think (playfield angle, waxed, strong coils?) Now i'm on the lookout for one. A little nervous about the repair aspect, but I enjoy troubleshooting and always like to learn.....

    #49 3 years ago

    Positives
    1 - Gameplay - I don't like all the distractions on newer machines, waiting for animations, looking for the ball under 3 levels of toys, etc. I like most SS games as well.
    2 - Cost - I can pick up games for a few hundred bucks, especially project games (got 1 game for free! and it worked!).
    3 - Repair - Teaching myself repair from the excellent online guides. Tricky sometimes to trace down an issue but very satisfying to resolve. No computer chips can be a huge bonus.
    4 - Reliability - Once I get a machine dialed in, they seam to be bullet proof.
    5 - Artwork - I absolutely love the original "old school" artwork on the EM machines.

    I find that usually why EM games suck for people is the machine is not performing well. I have purchased games that were sooo sluggish. rebuilt pop bumbers, flippers, clean and wax playfield, etc. and man, what a huge difference. You have to realize that most games have not had any love in decades. As always though, different strokes... If you don't like them, it doesn't hurt any feelings in the EM camp, helps with positive #2

    #50 3 years ago
    Quoted from dudah:

    I got into pinball about 4 years ago,

    For me this is the main thing. I didn't get into EMs until I was forced to play them, and I didn't really want to. For the OP, it will be harder to "go backwards" when you're still so impressed with DMDs. I've been playing DMDs my entire life, and I've played them all (obviously give or take) a thousand times, there's nothing new to me; but all EMs were new to me.
    So maybe in 25 years you'll get into them

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