The incentive is the fn sale of the game !! At these prices they must include programming and if it continues we will buy other games. Period

Don't know if they could lock it down without adding more hardware to keep it from being copied.

They're making enough money when they sell the machine with the unfinished code!

Agree. NIB pins are not like $60 video games. Paying $7k-$8k for a pinball machine should get you complete code. I don't think we would ever see a new car be released with half of the programming for its main computer in place and then forcing people to pay $50 so the computer can enable 4th and 5th gears.

so you're saying; you'd buy a brand new car with no motor, parked in your driveway and wait for your missing parts and on top of that you pay for it!

love it!

Hey I wouldn't mind paying for code updates if:

1) their new selling price was $3,000

or

2) Stern gave me $2000 cash back on the sale to sub-contract their programmers to finish a code they were already paid by Stern to finish

Yes.. If they want to start charge $3,000.00 for exactly the quality they have today and half finished software they can charge me $59.95 for a few code updates. But... for the 6k-8k...forget it, that pin better have complete code. If they start doing that crap I'll play my old williams/bally pins until I die without giving them another dime.

Take this post down before they get ideas!

When the fing game says crank it up and end of line wizard mode on the fing playfield they better fing code the damn things in with the price of the game!!!!!

F!

I don't know that it's too far out there if they consider outsourcing development. They provide their SDK, perhaps the framework of the title's software like you saw shipped with ST, and the designer also provides the storyboard and his parameters for the completed rule set. If a licensed title (and it will be!) then sound bites and additional artwork are submitted to be digitized or converted to dots.

Once it reaches the point that Stern's original requirements are met, any additional software updates would be at the discretion of the developer and purchased by individuals.

For the record, I don't see that happening as I believe Stern is most comfortable when the status remains quo

Don't go and suggest $100,000 per game for code for god's sake...(unless you pay for it )

Machines are too expensive to not provide updated codes for free.. $4k-$8k

The second that happens is the second I stop developing for pinball machines.

I am an open source developer and in this model the software is included in the purchase of the game. Paying for software updates in any field is a horrible practice (looks at MS and IBM).

Selling alternate rule sets or additions is fine IF the base game code is considered "complete" by the community. For example, I think an alternate rule set for LOTR would be embraced by the community.

They could also sell "party" roms that include novelty modes, such as time-limited-play (so you're not waiting a half hour when the good player steps up).

This is fine and a great idea but selling updates to an unfinished game isn't going to happen.

I agree. And I don't think the model is really workable unless they start selling games in a much more complete state from release. As it stands the question would be "Why are you writing pay content for Game X when you haven't even finished Game Y?"

Correct. And it's for that reason I doubt we will see any pay content from non 3rd parties.

That's like trying to buy a new car and having the salesman tell you that paint is extra!!!

Presumably the contract would be written so a significant amount was payable upon completion of the initial requirements.

Like I said I don't see it happening, but unless something significant changes I won't be buying any Sterns until long after release. I don't enjoy the games when they're released. There's just no incentive to support the current model. Maybe with time more folks feel the same way and Stern's hand will be forced.

I think what JJP does works and I would not change it. It's been slow at the start but I think there's a lot of forgiveness because it's a new platform and also because there's communication. No one is praying that there will be another WOZ update, the lead programmer is not silent, and the owner is accessible.

Stop buying games with unfinished code. They continue to do it because we continue to throw money at them every time a new game comes out.

As individuals we already have the power to change a pinball companys way of doing business. Stop buying games with code you are unhappy with. Do not buy a game untill you are sure it is worth what you are willing to pay for it. There are a few new companys now, they will likely make sure their games will someday be complete. It seems that the new companys success will be made or broken on code being done well. Business as usual would be very unusual.

As much as I would love to shove money in Waison's face to finish XM code on his own time, paying for updates just rewards them for not finishing the job.

Listen, We all know Gary will do anything to generate more $$, and a pay for updates does not incentivize them ONE BIT to finish things. It in fact encourages the opposite.if Stern can make $50.00 an update, they will purposefully hold back on certain elements of code so they can release it later for another $50.00.

It is just not a viable solution.

Plus, let's say Stern DOES play by the book straight down the middle and releases quality updates worthy of a $50 price tag per download.........everyone would just copy and pirate it anyways, and the process of making some type of security DRM for it would just be another PITA that they don't want to deal with.......

In the end, for the $4k-8k we pay for these machines, I feel we are entitled to a finished product in a timely manner. Plain & simple.

"then dont buy it"....just isnt happening. if we would do this then it all makes sense.
"car without a motor"...not an analogy...maybe car and then pay for your 10,000 check up.
"$100,000 for lyman to come to your house"..isnt what is being stated
"rich guys are insane"...about 95% of the world will consider you "rich" just for the mere fact that you could pay for a pinball machine
"paint is extra"..another bad analogy...perhaps its like the 10,000 mile check up not being included in the price of the car.
but imho....if they would send a more complete game to start ,less people would have issue with paying $25 or $50 bucks for updated code. we pay crazy money for mods without batting an eyelash. but if we actually stopped buying the machines before code was complete we wouldnt have the problem, BUT WE STILL ARE BUYING THEM.
I guess I am in the minority here but I would be in favor.

Here is the gist.

"Hi, Im Mr. Collector. I love pinball, and would like to buy a pinball machine."

Pinball Company: AWESOME, here you go that will be $7000

"Cool, I like the playfield design. Where is the wizard mode? All my other Machines have wizard modes. There is even a graphic here on the playfield thats says I need to stack these 3 things to get to wizard mode"

Pinball Company: Yeaaaaah, we didnt have time for that in the end. Dont worry though, in 5 months you can buy it for 3 easy payments of $99.99!

"F**K"

Nobody likes paying for something they used to get for free.

THIS.

Charge for code that should be there already. Talk about having us by the balls.

Not really getting it free. It is included in what they paid for the game. So they'd be paying a second time this way.

LTG : )

Yes its included with the game, but anybody can download the code free off the Stern website right? Splitting hairs, we get each other.

And the massive downside would be that they would put less and less into the base code and more and more into charged "updates". This would never work, and the community wouldn't buy it. Well more specifically, I wouldn't buy it. I have an expectation that the machine I am buying will be completed.

fixed this for you.

If the code was free for the 1st year after launch and then upgrades had a cost, I'd be game for that. They could not launch it any worse than they do today or it would impair sales, but it would give them some incentive to improve the code beyond the first year. Maybe the timeframe should be longer (e.g. 2 years), but I think the basic idea has promise. We want better code. Stern has no incentive to improve the code once they are no longer selling that machine. Obviously, they would have to have a mechanism for charging and preventing pirating/copying without paying.

Finishing the software has become part of the support process. If a mech/board fails within a reasonable time period, Stern is great @ sending out replacement parts. Maybe you'd like to pay for these as well?

Suggesting we should pay Stern to finish the software is really pretty warped. Talk about encouraging even more bad behavior...

Well, the alternative is that there is a 100% chance I'll never ever see another AV update, POTC update, etc. unless someone hacks the game.

... or an incentive to put off necessary code upgrades until a year has past.

You know what this is setting up?

- Premium / LE = Code Updates FREE for life
- Pro = Code updates for $$$

Careful people. Careful...

100k per game for code updates? THat won't pay for very many developers and leave room left for profit.

What about "features" they sell separate? Isn't the WOZ having that now with CC sales?

Everything from autos to refrigerators, from TVs to audio processors, from routers to computer operating systems: Charging for software updates is suicide, it will send your customers elsewhere and put you out of business.

The suggestion is ridiculous.

Sales should be the financial result. ST has proven how many people feel burned. It took a hit from the last games being so light in code. Between Xmen and no Met update yet a lot of the buyers that stood in line for titles backed off. Stern has felt it.
They will continue as choices for more complete games steal the market. Or respond. A few updates and they can win back a bunch of folks.

No way I would pay for updates on a pinball machine!! No!!

Updates on $60 Video Games = New Maps, Vehicles, Weapons, etc. It drastically changes the game play, & allows you to play further in the game.

Pinball should be complete, or near complete at time of purchase! No way in Hell should the consumer be handicapped in his game paly because the Code is incomplete on a $5,000-$8000 pinball machine! But somehow this is common practice. It needs to stop!

The easiest solution is that if you feel you are being burned by games that don't have completed software for months to years after you purchase them then stop buying games and especially stop blindly buying new games the minute they are released without ever having played them. Problem solved. No one is forcing you to buy these expensive toys on release day knowing full well they have incomplete software.

Does it suck that games are shipped before the code is finished? Sure, but this isn't a practice unique to Stern. We did it at Williams Bally/Midway regularly and in fact when Mortal Kombat 4 came out they started shipping empty cabinets with no boards in them because the game wasn't ready yet! People bought a wooden box they couldn't do anything with until we shipped them a board a few weeks later. The sad reality is these companies need to ship games to make money to keep them in business and that often means with tight schedules that games ship with incomplete code. It sucks but there's little that is going to change that unless they see a drastic reduction in sales as a direct result of this practice which will only translate to the home collector market as the operators really don't notice the difference as most of them probably don't bother to update their games anyway.

If you want things to change the only way that is going to happen is to speak with your wallets. Complaining in multiple threads on an internet message board isn't going to make a bit of difference.

They can go right ahead. As far as far as I know, nobody has figured out a way to circumvent copyright protection and play games for free on any other platform

Unlike arcade video games most pinballs games over the years have gotten free software updates.

And some of the fixes do stuff that fix hardware issues. Now lets see to an OP pay $50 for an update or just macgyver the fuse that is blowing due to some thing in the old code that may be over loading / driving a coil.

I have seen some poor macgyver like fixes done on games on site.

also the big MS and apple just put some free BIG software updates as well.

To an extent you are right in saying that companies need to ship games to make money to keep them in business. Stern needs to make money. No one begrudges them that. But a mentality that they have to make as many new games as possible (3 per year) - pump them out by focusing all programming efforts on the current model to at least get it out the door in passable coding state, and them dumping them on consumers (and dumping all efforts at finishing the coding) - can't be the only way. As you say, they still are thinking about operators first and foremost. Most OPs around here put a game on location and never even bother to update the code. Whatever it ships with is what stays. But more and more, Sterns customer base has involved home collectors. We are the backbone of the industry. And we expect our games that we spend thousands on to have complete code. We're not just putting 3 dollars in a game and walking away.

Hence, why not make 2 to 2.5 games a year on average. Spend more time to get all the kinks out mechanically and ship games with great code. Then polish them up within the first 6 months or so. People would be thrilled - and here is the best part - MORE PEOPLE MAY BUY THE GAME! No need to sell 1000 Avengers, 1000 Metallicas and 1000 Xmen in a year. Instead, sell 3000 finished Game 1 and 3000 Game 2.

Problem right now is Stern has been shortsighted and this will bite them in the ass in the long run.

Best thing to do right now, as was mentioned by someone else in another thread, is for Stern to allow its coders to take 3 months and finish Xmen, Avengers, Metallica, ST coding. Nothing else new. Have a delay in releasing a new game, and instead do reruns of past excellent games that people are clamouring for. And for the love of God, communicate with your customers, telling us that you will complete the code for these games.

Reputational increase, and $$$ in your jeans.

Even video games with Add on packs / DLC still free base updates.

also as the games are not likely to be on line (even if an new hardware system has WIFI) DRM will be hardware to work. A system where you need to hook up an laptop to the game with a one time use code has a lot of pit falls.

So now we have to pay for unfinished code. Great! That's just great! Good suggestions. Not.

I wish Stern would dedicate the last two months of every year allowing programmers to finish code. No other responsibilities but finish code.

Oh I'm sure there are ways. Maybe they can require a special memory stick direct from them. I'm sure it wouldn't be too hard for them to do something that would persuade many from buying from them. Maybe a subscription of for a bank of pin updates or something.

At least (for now) we are safe from in-app purchases like on an iPhone game.

"Would you like to add an extra ball for $.99?"