Sorcerer
Williams, 1985F6 has the sticker which is supposed to be 15A FB according to a sheet of paper included with the RD board, the sheet shows all older (sys 9 and older) games with 15A and the Newer Williams(sys 11) and DE games as a 5A.
F4 is fusing the 18v which is an 8 amp, Running all incandescent except for pop bumpers but they are on the GI circuit not the 18v.
Quoted from zacaj:off lights are still dimly on? Did you ever get a chance to check the logic signals?
Well, in lamp test mode they go out completely when they should. During a game or in attract mode they stay dimly on, but it seems more like the insert light 'movement' is too fast, like attract mode is hyper.
Haven't had a chance to test the logic signals.
For 1 as it is now I think the lamp column circuits are set to fry if the game is on for more than a few seconds, is there a 'safe' way I can test this stuff?
2.. I don't have a logic probe, only a DMM, any suggestions on what type of logic probe is best for pinball work?
I'd assume that taking out the lamp fuse would make it safe to test the signals. Does your DMM have a hertz setting? Since you say the attract mode seems hyper, have you checked the clock pin if the cpu? Only reason I can think if that the animations would be going faster unless it's an optical illusion. The lights 'ghosting' (which wouldn't show up in a mode where they all turn on and off at once) usually means that the rows and columns aren't synced up properly, so you're getting some of the last or next row bleeding over, but I can't think of how that could be being caused by the hardware without a row being stuck on, but that would be obvious because some lights wouldn't flash at all...
I don't have a logic probe myself, I've been making due with a $10 salae 8 bit logic analyzer clone off eBay. It's a bit annoying because you need a computer to use it, it only does binary, and you can't view the waveforms until you finish recording, but it's also nice sometimes to be able to look at them St your leisure OK the computer and to be able to record multiple signals at once. I often just touch the 8 wires to one side of a chip and record them all at once.
Here you go for logic probes.
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/terrybs-guide-to-logic-probes
If you pull the fuse then you won't get any signals on the column/row (unlike the way solenoids work where ground is switched). You can pull the lamp row and column connectors, but if something on the board is shorted to ground it will still possibly blow. Possibly being the important word.
Quoted from terryb:f something on the board is shorted to ground it will still possibly blow
Would the short still blow it if you connected your own separate 5V and ground to the connectors for testing?
..at least you'd have narrowed it down if it did blow again...
Quoted from zacaj:Would the short still blow it if you connected your own separate 5V and ground to the connectors for testing?
The signals for the column come from the board and most of the circuit is CMOS (12 volts) so you really couldn't replace the supply voltage and expect things to work. That's all pulsed circuits and I would guess that may be where the problem lies in that the signal is going high rather than being pulsed. This will cause lights to be too bright and be on when they shouldn't be.
Quoted from terryb:The signals for the column come from the board and most of the circuit is CMOS (12 volts) so you really couldn't replace the supply voltage and expect things to work. That's all pulsed circuits and I would guess that may be where the problem lies in that the signal is going high rather than being pulsed. This will cause lights to be too bright and be on when they shouldn't be.
Not the logic supply, the lamp supply. 1J4 and 1J5 provide the 18V and ground that the rows and columns switch on and off and which the lamp fuse fuses, you could just stick the logic 5V or any other voltage in there with the lamps disconnected though to see if everything is pulsing correctly
Quoted from terryb:Here you go for logic probes.
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/terrybs-guide-to-logic-probes
Thanks for the link and thread on logic probes, got one on order from amazon now, when it gets back in stock that is.
I haven't messed this deep into this sort of thing since my intro to computer engineering course a long time ago 
I am confident in my ability to do things, just I don't have the background with the system to know what to do.
Quoted from terryb:you can pull the lamp row and column connectors, but if something on the board is shorted to ground it will still possibly blow. Possibly being the important word.
Quoted from terryb:That's all pulsed circuits and I would guess that may be where the problem lies in that the signal is going high rather than being pulsed. This will cause lights to be too bright and be on when they shouldn't be.
So how would you proceed if you were in my shoes? Once my probe gets here I can test, try, and report back. Thanks again for all the kind help so far.
Just a though here, if you were to replace all controlled lamps with low power LEDs the draw maybe low enough to not cause damage when troubleshooting.
Quoted from zacaj:Not the logic supply, the lamp supply. 1J4 and 1J5 provide the 18V and ground that the rows and columns switch on and off and which the lamp fuse fuses, you could just stick the logic 5V or any other voltage in there with the lamps disconnected though to see if everything is pulsing correctly
I got it finally (kind of slow today). Yes you could do that, but as grumpy suggested led's might achieve the same thing.
Quoted from KloggMonkey:So how would you proceed if you were in my shoes? Once my probe gets here I can test, try, and report back. Thanks again for all the kind help so far.
Personally I wouldn't worry about having the game on for a few minutes. If something blows, it blows and you'll turn the game off. Those horribly burnt boards you see are from being left on for hours with a blown transistor. You really can't do much damage (other than maybe a component) in a few minutes.
Plus just because the lights are bright doesn't necessarily indicate something is ready to blow.
I would check all of the columns with the logic probe and make sure they are pulsed signals. If they're stuck on high then work back up the circuit.
Logic probe came today.
Looks like I probably should test PIA U14, first or maybe this:
Quoted from terryb:I would check all of the columns with the logic probe and make sure they are pulsed signals. If they're stuck on high then work back up the circuit.
Would this be checking connector J7 pins for 'strobe'?
Just to make sure I should red clip onto 12v+dc and black on to ground, with switch set to CMOS?
Another silly question where is a good place to clip onto the 12v?
Just learning as I go, hopefully my stumbles can help others down the road.
Quoted from KloggMonkey:Would this be checking connector J7 pins for 'strobe'?
Yes.
Quoted from KloggMonkey:Just to make sure I should red clip onto 12v+dc and black on to ground, with switch set to CMOS?
Another silly question where is a good place to clip onto the 12v?
Yes. IJ17 pin 9 has 12 volts on it. Just follow the trace till you find a lead to clip onto.
Turns out W7 is an easy place to pick up the 12v.
So with the probe the IJ7 pins all lit the low green led, and made a constant scream tone come from the probe.
This was during attract mode, but I with the 18v fuse out so no inserts lit to see.
It would seem that IJ7 is not pulsing, but shouldn't it have been stuck on high? Or did I need the 18v fuse in for the test to work properly? 
I tested the switch matrix columns they give a fast blink with the round yellow LED, and the green low is lit, I would expect it to be low unless a switch is closed on that column of the matrix?
I also tested IJ2-1 since it is labeled strobe just like the IJ7 pins. It gave a slower blink than the switch matrix on the yellow LED.
IJ7 still just lit the green 'low' LED. - with the 18v fuse out....
HOWEVER with the 18v fuse in all the IJ7 pins gave a fast blink on the yellow LED and fast blinks on both the red and green high low LEDs.
So I suppose the fuse is needed for IJ7 to make its strobe, and with the fuse in, it seems my IJ7 pins are strobing as expected????
Quoted from KloggMonkey:So I suppose the fuse is needed for IJ7 to make its strobe, and with the fuse in, it seems my IJ7 pins are strobing as expected????
Sounds like it.
Still working on this, what the preferred way to test U14 and whatever is next in figuring this issue out?
Quoted from zacaj:The PIA testing part of section 4 here (http://pinball.flippers.info/system6repairpart5.asp) might be able to help
Thanks I'll check that out.
Posting this image I found here for future reference:
lamp-rowcircuit_(resized).PNG
lamp-columncircuit_(resized).PNG
I recently fixed a Sys9 CPU with exploded MOSFETs and it did indeed get back to the PIA. Had to replace the PIA as well as the ICs downstream, the 2n6427s and the MOSFETS. Went back to stock, using SQT resistors to space them off the board a little.
MOSFETS in theory are a great mod, but I'm starting to shy away from them as they seem to have this behavior frequently in Sys9 and DE CPUs. For some reason, I've not seen it in Sys11 or Sys 3-7. I've probably put MOSFETs in 50 Sys 3-7 driver boards and have had zero reports of any failing in this method.
Thanks John I feel that's the conclusion I'm working my way towards. At least U14 is socketed on my board, they must have fried it in the past somehow.
Got my new PIA today popped it in the socket and presto the problem seems to be gone. Going to replace the burned out bulbs from being too bright and play a few test games. I'll check back after a few games but I think it fixed now! 
To sum up Replaced:
8 - 0hm jumpers for cement 5w 27ohm
8 - MOSFETS for TIP42c
8 - 2N6427
2 - 7408 for 74F08 (U54, U53)
1 - 4.7k ohm resistor network (SR4)
1 - 6821 PIA (U14)
Repaired any burned parts of the board.
Thanks again to terryb, johnwartjr, zacaj, and all the others who helped!
All is well. Only had 1 insert bulb blow while it was getting the full 18v. Game is back to 100% again.
Quoted from KloggMonkey:All is well. Only had 1 insert bulb blow while it was getting the full 18v. Game is back to 100% again.
Congratulations, and thanks for summarizing the solution.
Wanna join the discussion? Please sign in to reply to this topic.
Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run without any 3rd-party banners or ads, thanks to the support from our visitors? Please consider a donation to Pinside and get anext to your username to show for it! Or better yet, subscribe to Pinside+!
This page was printed from https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/controlled-lamps-too-bright-lamp-matrix-problem/page/2 and we tried optimising it for printing. Some page elements may have been deliberately hidden.
Scan the QR code on the left to jump to the URL this document was printed from.
Rochester, NY