(Topic ID: 303013)

continuing Black Knight flipper/mpu issues

By QuickDraw

2 years ago


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There are 54 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
#1 2 years ago

I had an issue that i posted about a long time ago, i can no longer post in that thread but the issue has progressed: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/black-knight-problems-3

basically i had an intermittent issues with the game locking up randomly, which with help i determined it was something to do with the flippers, when i would activate the flippers sometimes i would get a lockup. I sent the driver board and MPU out for a refresh which they did all of the bulletproofing anf replacing interconnects. When i got the boards back the issue persisted. it was suggested that i replace the flipper diodes which i did with 1N4007 diodes. after replacing the diodes the issue seemed to get worse. now it locks up usually within the first 3 flips of the left flipper. I checked the diodes to make sure i had them installed with the band towards the thick wire on the flipper coil and re-replaced the diodes on the left flippers which had no effect on the issue.

#2 2 years ago

Bueler, Bueler…

#3 2 years ago
Quoted from QuickDraw:

after replacing the diodes the issue seemed to get worse. now it locks up usually within the first 3 flips of the left flipper. I checked the diodes to make sure i had them installed with the band towards the thick wire on the flipper coil and re-replaced the diodes on the left flippers which had no effect on the issue.

Just so I'm clear here. You can activate the Right flippers indefinitely and the game works fine. If you activate the Left Flippers the game will lock up in 3 or so flips? I'm assuming you're in test mode as well?

#4 2 years ago

Yeah I can do some more extensive testing tonight. But usually it crashes on the first left flip. Pretty sure right side is ok. This is in a normal game mode

#5 2 years ago

Have all the header pins on the driver, cpu and power supply board been replaced or at least had the solder reflowed?

#6 2 years ago

Yes. I sent the boards out they did everything to them and extensively tested the boards.


these are my boards, he talks about what he did around the 2:50 mark

#7 2 years ago

i had my wife start a game and just hit the right flipper only, she would hit it about 50 times before launching a ball and then she would play through the balls using right flipper only. she did this for 4-5 full games. in that time the game crashed one time and the upper right flipper did not flip 2 times when the lower flipper flipped. It seems like i still have an intermittent issue with the right flipper as well.

edit: Just wanted to thank you guys for taking the time to try to help me out, i greatly appreciate it!

#8 2 years ago
Quoted from QuickDraw:

Yes. I sent the boards out they did everything to them and extensively tested the boards.

these are my boards, he talks about what he did around the 2:50 mark

Yes. I sent the boards out they did everything to them and extensively tested the boards.

these are my boards, he talks about what he did around the 2:50 mark

Looks good for the cpu and driver board. What about the power supply board header pins? The same cold solder joints commonly occur on the power supply board.

#9 2 years ago
Quoted from QuickDraw:

i had my wife start a game and just hit the right flipper only, she would hit it about 50 times before launching a ball and then she would play through the balls using right flipper only. she did this for 4-5 full games. in that time the game crashed one time and the upper right flipper did not flip 2 times when the lower flipper flipped. It seems like i still have an intermittent issue with the right flipper as well.
edit: Just wanted to thank you guys for taking the time to try to help me out, i greatly appreciate it!

Ok, so 1st, lets remove game play from the equation. I'm looking to see if activation of either flipper (on it's own) will reset the game. So, no balls in play. She/you can start a game but don't plunge the ball into the playfield. Just activate the flippers.

On the note of intermittent flippers:
The upper/lower flippers are on 2 different switches stacked on top of each other mounted on the side of the cabinet. If you slowly push in a flipper button you should be able to get the lower flipper to activate without the upper. These flipper switches pull full voltage/current so they will pit/burn out over time and either need replaced or resurfaced. Or, she simply didn't push the flipper button in far enough. If the former:

With the game turned off you can slip some 120 or higher grit sandpaper (nail file will work too) in between the contacts. Gently press the contacts together (from inside the cab) and move the sandpaper back and forth a few times. Do this to both contacts. If the contacts are pitted this should help with intermittent activation in the short run.
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#10 2 years ago
Quoted from Schwaggs:

Looks good for the cpu and driver board. What about the power supply board header pins? The same cold solder joints commonly occur on the power supply board.

i havent messed with those but the power supply may have been replaced, i'll check tonight.

Quoted from bakerhillpins:

Ok, so 1st, lets remove game play from the equation. I'm looking to see if activation of either flipper (on it's own) will reset the game. So, no balls in play. She/you can start a game but don't plunge the ball into the playfield. Just activate the flippers.
On the note of intermittent flippers:
The upper/lower flippers are on 2 different switches stacked on top of each other mounted on the side of the cabinet. If you slowly push in a flipper button you should be able to get the lower flipper to activate without the upper. These flipper switches pull full voltage/current so they will pit/burn out over time and either need replaced or resurfaced. Or, she simply didn't push the flipper button in far enough. If the former:
With the game turned off you can slip some 120 or higher grit sandpaper (nail file will work too) in between the contacts. Gently press the contacts together (from inside the cab) and move the sandpaper back and forth a few times. Do this to both contacts. If the contacts are pitted this should help with intermittent activation in the short run.

left flipper will reset the game without balls in play, pretty sure the right will too from my previous testing. makes sense about the flipper switch contacts i did this to my taxi machine a while back, thanks!

#11 2 years ago

The power supply was replaced with rottendog wdp3211a. Looks like this happened just before we bought the game judging on the oct-19 date on the board

#12 2 years ago
Quoted from QuickDraw:

pretty sure the right will too from my previous testing.

So the issue here is being sure... your wife was playing a game at the time so something else may have happened when she thought she was hitting the right flipper only.

The key to successfully troubleshooting is taking a single sample at a time. If we mix up multiple things all at once then we don't have real information and we just circle the drain.

I'm trying to determine if only one flipper circuit causes the issue. It sounds like the left does it all the time on its own. I'd like to know for sure if the right does to, and if so how often. That's useful data.

#13 2 years ago

Ran through another round of testing the right flipper, I did have at least one time the right flipper crashed the game. I rebooted the machine and tried again. Hundreds of flips later it didn’t crash then I tried the left flipper it seemed to work too. So we decided to play a game and it seemed to crash on a right flipper. Rebooted again and we can’t seem to start a new game. Powered it off for a bit looked for blown fuses(didn’t see any). Ran through switch, solonoid and sound tests, which seemed normal. Ran the mpu board diagnostic which tested normal.

so seems like the game is stuck without being able to start a new game.

#14 2 years ago

So the flippers don't appear to be the cause from my POV. Can you describe the crash symptoms? Does it freeze, do the lights go out, displays top?? That kind of stuff. Or does it reset?

Quoted from QuickDraw:

Rebooted again and we can’t seem to start a new game. Powered it off for a bit looked for blown fuses(didn’t see any). Ran through switch, solonoid and sound tests, which seemed normal. Ran the mpu board diagnostic which tested normal.

I'm interested in the fact that you couldn't start a game after it crashed. Did you check/test the start and trough switches to see if they were operating? It's been a few years since I owned a BK so I'm running on failing memories about the requirements to start a game on Sys7.

Does it work again if you leave it for a few hours?

Quoted from QuickDraw:

The power supply was replaced with rottendog wdp3211a. Looks like this happened just before we bought the game judging on the oct-19 date on the board

To continue Schwaggs questions... how do the Power supply connectors look? Burned?

#15 2 years ago
Quoted from bakerhillpins:

I'm interested in the fact that you couldn't start a game after it crashed. Did you check/test the start and trough switches to see if they were operating? It's been a few years since I owned a BK so I'm running on failing memories about the requirements to start a game on Sys7.

If it's crashed it's not going to react to any switches properly.

Requirement to start game on BK is the game has to see all 3 balls somewhere, upper lock, trough, shooter lane. Some of the games won't start if they see MORE than the 3 it's expecting, I forget if BK is one of those, but it def. needs to see at least 3.

The core issue is likely more than one thing causing the same results. I'd go ahead and replace the left flippers' diodes again with new ones anyway and make sure the band is correct based on the games' wiring to the coils (not necessarily the coil itself, since it seems strange that it became really consistent with resetting on the left flipper after that replacement....)

Maybe get another power supply as well, and not a RD one. They're relatively cheap and would rule that out as an issue.

#16 2 years ago
Quoted from bakerhillpins:

So the flippers don't appear to be the cause from my POV. Can you describe the crash symptoms? Does it freeze, do the lights go out, displays top?? That kind of stuff. Or does it reset?

I'm interested in the fact that you couldn't start a game after it crashed. Did you check/test the start and trough switches to see if they were operating? It's been a few years since I owned a BK so I'm running on failing memories about the requirements to start a game on Sys7.
Does it work again if you leave it for a few hours?

To continue Schwaggs questions... how do the Power supply connectors look? Burned?

The game freezes, the lights still blink and display still cycles but the start button does not do anything. Did not test start and trough switches, but did try it again after being unplugged for several hours, still unresponsive. I opened up the backbox and looked under the playfield for burned parts or burned fuses, nothing jumped out at me. also tried to put stress on the diode solder joints to see if they were cold and everything seemed to be well connected. also checked the solder joint for continuity before and after the solder joint.

Quoted from slochar:

If it's crashed it's not going to react to any switches properly.
Requirement to start game on BK is the game has to see all 3 balls somewhere, upper lock, trough, shooter lane. Some of the games won't start if they see MORE than the 3 it's expecting, I forget if BK is one of those, but it def. needs to see at least 3.
The core issue is likely more than one thing causing the same results. I'd go ahead and replace the left flippers' diodes again with new ones anyway and make sure the band is correct based on the games' wiring to the coils (not necessarily the coil itself, since it seems strange that it became really consistent with resetting on the left flipper after that replacement....)
Maybe get another power supply as well, and not a RD one. They're relatively cheap and would rule that out as an issue.

there's a chance a ball got stuck in a weird place, but pretty small chance of that, i will look tonight. Left flipper diodes were replaced again and the old ones were tested and they tested good. I verified the diode band is near the thick wire on all 4 flipper coils. do you have any suggestions for a good quality power supply?

I will also clean the contacts of the start switch tonight and verify the balls are in the correct place for starting a game.

#17 2 years ago

For replacement power supply, you may want to try Kohout's boards:

http://pinballpcb.com/products/williams-system-7-11b-power-supply/

You'll have to determine which version you need though. Whether the main transformer is in the backbox or if it's in the cabinet should help determine which power supply you'll need to order from them.

#18 2 years ago
Quoted from slochar:

If it's crashed it's not going to react to any switches properly.

Well in the classic sense of the term yes, but I didn't have a definition from him at that time as to the actual state of the machine and simply stuck with the terminology he was using.

Quoted from QuickDraw:

The game freezes, the lights still blink and display still cycles but the start button does not do anything.

It would appear that the game is still executing code (thus not actually crashed). The blinking lights and display are that of the game you were currently playing? Or did it return to an attract mode type of lights/score display scheme?

Quoted from QuickDraw:

Did not test start and trough switches, but did try it again after being unplugged for several hours, still unresponsive.

So it doesn't work at all now? That's easier to debug than intermittent issues. So when you turn it on is it running attract mode and it's not starting a game when you press start? Put it into test mode and see if it's registering the start switch and that it sees 3 balls as slochar mentioned.

#19 2 years ago
Quoted from bakerhillpins:

Well in the classic sense of the term yes, but I didn't have a definition from him at that time as to the actual state of the machine and simply stuck with the terminology he was using.

It would appear that the game is still executing code (thus not actually crashed). The blinking lights and display are that of the game you were currently playing? Or did it return to an attract mode type of lights/score display scheme?

So it doesn't work at all now? That's easier to debug than intermittent issues. So when you turn it on is it running attract mode and it's not starting a game when you press start? Put it into test mode and see if it's registering the start switch and that it sees 3 balls as slochar mentioned.

currently it's running in attract mode when powering on, though there doesn't seem to be any sound. previously when the game would "crash", some of the lights would go out and i don't believe there was any blinking.

Last night i verified that there were 3 balls where they should be to start a new game, i ran the switch test and the machine was registering all 3 ball locations and the start switch was also registering with no issues, still could not get a game to start.

i have ordered a new power supply from pinballpcb.

#20 2 years ago

Silly question, but is the game set to free play? If it isn't, are the coin switches working? Game won't start without credits (or set to free play).

Which switches are the balls activating in switch test? List the numbers that come up.

Do all the coils fire properly in coil test?

#21 2 years ago
Quoted from frunch:

Silly question, but is the game set to free play? If it isn't, are the coin switches working? Game won't start without credits (or set to free play).
Which switches are the balls activating in switch test? List the numbers that come up.
Do all the coils fire properly in coil test?

your silly question may be a good one. it was set to free play but maybe it reset to factory settings in one of the crash events, not sure if that can happen or not, but could be something to check...

the switches activated in switch test i believe were 17-19 the lower ball ramps then i think it was number 3 the credit switch when i was pressing it. i was looking at the manual when running the test and it was only the ones i expected based on ball position and when i was pressing the credit button.

all of the coils fired properly in that test.

#22 2 years ago

I was kinda thinking the same thing--if the memory got scrambled when it locked up, it might have removed the free play setting from the settings. Did the game ever boot to audit mode recently? When the game boots to audit mode, only the general illumination lights come on and some numbers appear on the displays. When that happens, you have to open the door and flip the power on/off/on to get to attract mode. If it did that, it's very possible the free play setting got erased/reset.

#23 2 years ago
Quoted from frunch:

I was kinda thinking the same thing--if the memory got scrambled when it locked up, it might have removed the free play setting from the settings. Did the game ever boot to audit mode recently? When the game boots to audit mode, only the general illumination lights come on and some numbers appear on the displays. When that happens, you have to open the door and flip the power on/off/on to get to attract mode. If it did that, it's very possible the free play setting got erased/reset.

not sure, but that's entirely possible, I've been opening the coin door and power cycling a lot.

#24 2 years ago
Quoted from frunch:

Did the game ever boot to audit mode recently? When the game boots to audit mode, only the general illumination lights come on and some numbers appear on the displays. When that happens, you have to open the door and flip the power on/off/on to get to attract mode.

Quoted from QuickDraw:

not sure, but that's entirely possible, I've been opening the coin door and powering down and powering up a lot.

It's easy to miss things when you're moving quickly and concentrating on a different symptom. It would seem logical that the game could have booted into audit mode but you classified it as a crash (you weren't expecting audit mode) and power cycled again. Which would have cleared and moved you into Attract mode. Thus, it seemed like a crash and a reboot to recover.

I'd like to see us work through the game starting issue before we work back to the "crash" issue. Trying to solve multiple problems at once is going to get confusing quickly.

#25 2 years ago

Some positive to report, turns out it had switched from free play to pay to play. After I figured that out I started a new game and right flipper a few hundred times no problems.

Left flipper failed on the first flip. Then I reset the machine and I got 19 left flips before it failed again. When it fails some of the lights go off and sometimes it plays a random noise.

#26 2 years ago

Post pics of both left flipper assemblies under the playfield. Maybe there's something funky with the wiring or a possible intermittent short someone might be able to spot from some pics...

#27 2 years ago
Quoted from QuickDraw:

Left flipper failed on the first flip. Then I reset the machine and I got 19 left flips before it failed again. When it fails some of the lights go off and sometimes it plays a random noise.

Put a business card (or card stock/etc) in between the contacts of the cabinet flipper switches, one flipper at a time, and see if the game resets on only one of the flippers or both.

#28 2 years ago

Ok sorry for the pause, we had some Sheetrock being patched in the arcade ceiling and had to move the machines so it took a bit to get back to troubleshooting.

I tried the business card trick, great suggestion. I could not get the game to “crash” with either flipper on its own but when both are flipped together the game basically freezes where it was when in play.

I’m attaching some photos of the left flipper coils if this helps.

2B4213F4-A781-429A-B1E2-07A32295F5E3 (resized).jpeg2B4213F4-A781-429A-B1E2-07A32295F5E3 (resized).jpeg77FC71B3-B60D-465D-8AF6-7DA0008A1231 (resized).jpeg77FC71B3-B60D-465D-8AF6-7DA0008A1231 (resized).jpeg

#29 2 years ago

The EOS switch on the lower playfield flipper in your pic looks wrong. Can you get a better shot of that?

#30 2 years ago

Here is a better shot

D82A1F8B-97E8-4CD2-A3EF-9350265142DF (resized).jpegD82A1F8B-97E8-4CD2-A3EF-9350265142DF (resized).jpeg
#31 2 years ago

Yea, that's ok... to me it looked like someone used a newer style switch in that mech.

Ok, so it only fails when BOTH Upper/Lower flippers on the Left are activated at the same time. Seems like a load issue but it's odd that it's not happening with the right. (I'm still not clear on this even after reading the thread again) I wonder if one of the flipper coils has some shorted windings and is loading down the PS. Do you have a multimeter to test the coil resistance?

When is the new power supply arriving?

#32 2 years ago

Power supply just shipped this morning should be here by the weekend I bet. I do have a digital multi meter.

Another observation I have with this machine is when I flip any flipper the lights in the machine dim a little bit. Not sure if this is normal or not.

I’ve only observed it failing on the right flipper like once or twice once it was first flip after boot up in a new game and the other time was during a game so there may have been other factors in play

#33 2 years ago

Lift a leg of the diode on each flipper coil, check for a bad diode.

#34 2 years ago
Quoted from Billc479:

Lift a leg of the diode on each flipper coil, check for a bad diode.

all flipper diodes have been replaced

#35 2 years ago

I'm kinda hung up on the flippers causing this ATM.. Have you ever measured the resistance of the 2 windings of each of the flipper coils and compared them to known good coils?

I know it's a PITA to unsolder coils to do this.. Here's the flipper schematics, you might be able to unplug certain connectors and isolate them without removing them but you'd still need to slip a business card in the EOS switch to remove it from the resistance test of the hold winding.

pasted_image (resized).pngpasted_image (resized).png
3 weeks later
#36 2 years ago

ok just getting back at this after a really busy period. I installed the new power supply, that did not affect the issue at all. Will check the coils for resistance tomorrow night.

#37 2 years ago
Quoted from QuickDraw:

I had an issue that i posted about a long time ago, i can no longer post in that thread but the issue has progressed: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/black-knight-problems-3
basically i had an intermittent issues with the game locking up randomly, which with help i determined it was something to do with the flippers, when i would activate the flippers sometimes i would get a lockup. I sent the driver board and MPU out for a refresh which they did all of the bulletproofing anf replacing interconnects. When i got the boards back the issue persisted. it was suggested that i replace the flipper diodes which i did with 1N4007 diodes. after replacing the diodes the issue seemed to get worse. now it locks up usually within the first 3 flips of the left flipper. I checked the diodes to make sure i had them installed with the band towards the thick wire on the flipper coil and re-replaced the diodes on the left flippers which had no effect on the issue.

Post a photo of the boards cpu driver power supply.

Suspect a faulty internally shorted Left Flipper coil.

#38 2 years ago
Quoted from PINTEC:

Post a photo of the boards cpu driver power supply.
Suspect a faulty internally shorted Left Flipper coil.

You want me to post a pic of the power supply or something else? Sorry I’m a bit of a noob

#39 2 years ago

Sounds like he's looking for pics of the mpu (top left), driver board (bottom left board, connected to mpu via big 40 pin connector), and power supply board (top right)

#40 2 years ago
45F92CCA-BC06-4D31-9CD3-A8DA6C47D906 (resized).jpeg45F92CCA-BC06-4D31-9CD3-A8DA6C47D906 (resized).jpeg6F07F106-2FAB-495E-BE70-1C2133374314 (resized).jpeg6F07F106-2FAB-495E-BE70-1C2133374314 (resized).jpeg
#41 2 years ago

try isolating the left flipper coils, so both aren't energising at the same time.

as the coils are activated by pressing the flipper button which closes both switches in the cabinet, put a piece of cardboard or paper between either and see what happens.

i'm curious to know if taking one out of the circuit then stops the issue happening?

have you checked the dual stack switches in the cabinet, that the solder tabs are all clear of one another?

#42 2 years ago
Quoted from Rikoshay:

try isolating the left flipper coils, so both aren't energising at the same time.
as the coils are activated by pressing the flipper button which closes both switches in the cabinet, put a piece of cardboard or paper between either and see what happens.
i'm curious to know if taking one out of the circuit then stops the issue happening?
have you checked the dual stack switches in the cabinet, that the solder tabs are all clear of one another?

Did that already, it would only fail when both coils would flip

#43 2 years ago

From another thread with similar issue on system 7 repinning the power input on the mpu fixed it. Upper left corner of your mpu board.... Yours looks to be idc. Worth a shot.

#44 2 years ago

just looking at the last pic you posted, and it may not be relay, but the plastic housing looks to be melted?

possible issue with the flipper relay?

#45 2 years ago

In post #30, I can't really tell for sure, but the end of stroke switch looks like the soldered wires might have a rouge bit of wire that could be doing an intermittent short. Take a closer look and let us know.

#46 2 years ago
Quoted from bkxdream:

In post #30, I can't really tell for sure, but the end of stroke switch looks like the soldered wires might have a rouge bit of wire that could be doing an intermittent short. Take a closer look and let us know.

I see what you’re talking about. I’ll check that tonight.

Quoted from Rikoshay:

just looking at the last pic you posted, and it may not be relay, but the plastic housing looks to be melted?
possible issue with the flipper relay?

I looked at this IRL and it looks like at one time some dirty liquid dropped on that relay and dried. It is not melted and the dirt seems to only be in the surface of that relay.

Other than that I did take some resistance measurements of the coils and they seemed to be consistent on all 4 coils. I play tested a bit over the weekend and the issue has become more intermittent after replacing the power supply. Some times it takes a few games to fail now. Instead of it failing on the first few flips.

#47 2 years ago

The rogue bit of wire on the eos switch was well behind the other connection and about 1/4” away from nearest short.

I retook the resistance readings of the coils the result is here.

70D1E4E8-0D9E-436F-8CFF-D7D1641D4E77 (resized).jpeg70D1E4E8-0D9E-436F-8CFF-D7D1641D4E77 (resized).jpeg
#48 2 years ago

These are supposed to be series coils, thus I'd expect one of the readings to be the sum of the 2 other. Yea I get that there's going to be some variation but upper right went down?

Are the winding wires securely soldered to the lugs?

#49 2 years ago

you have lots of LEDs on your new power supply
have you tried watching these LEDs while you flip away to see if any of the LEDs flicker or dim?
might help to narrow it down?

2 weeks later
#50 2 years ago

I'm just now reading this and it's been 19 days since the last post, possibly due to the holidays. If you still have an issue, let us know and I'll toss in some ideas if I can. I've got 35 years of electronics under my belt (and 53 years of chub above my belt ), maybe I can pull a rabbit out of the hat.

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