My personal opinion...

I have many games with this issue on route so I have seen multiple examples over the past few years ranging from minimal to VERY bad.
This issue is on Beatles, Maiden, JP2 most predominantly, but I have seen it on all title from Stern fro the past 4 years; just seemingly worse for the last 1.5 years.

I think it is important to note that "pooling" (e.g. clear still in liquid form resting into a puddle) is not really what is going on. Bunching may be a better term for this. The appearance looks like pooled areas but is is actually hollow but thick raised bunching where art and clear layer have lifted off the playfield while still in non-cured state.

I think the underlying issue is adhesion to the wood. This appears to be a chemical AND physical lack of adhesion.
This could be due to:
-the wood being used
-how the wood has been treated or prepped (or lack of prep)
-the ink being used or the timing between layers (no longer silk screened which means all one layer with reduced work time but also less total dry time?)
-the clear being used or the timing between layers
-the posts are differnet than they used to be and pressure is being displaced differently/ not spread as evenly as old posts do

I personally think it is a COMBINATION of root causes.
We know the wood is softer and different now than even a few years ago.
We have seen examples of poor wood prep and more dust which indicates technique and concern for wood prep before ink has decreased
We know ink is different chemically and now being layed down in one go (or one session of mutliple passes) compared to previous silkscreen process
We know time is being cut in every way possible so less cure time
We know clear coat chemicals continue to change and we can assume that they are given less time to cure off between coats
We know the whole process seems rushed and the game has changed to more titles and more often which means you have to assemble without cure off or as long.

I think the symptom is seen at posts and most quickly at sling posts because of the impact and abuse they take.
I think the clear is bonding pretty well to the ink layer (hence why ink and clear are lifting together). This tells me that clear is not given enough time to cure between layers so it is still pliable at assembly time. This tells me that ink is bonded more to clear than to wood.

The initial "solution" of adding washers under posts (e.g. JP2) was just attempting to displace pressure over a bigger area and hid the issue. This is the first visible acknowledgement that Stern knows they have an issue.

The new "solution" of moving art off of posts appears to only be a bandaid to hide the lack of finding a root cause. They have removed the ink adhesion issue from under posts and now we will get a chance to see if this helps remove the symptom (but still not the cause). I view this as a way for them to buy time or they are opting to just remove the visible symptom and moving on with life?? (I hope not but maybe the case). I will note that there are already examples on previous games where posts without art under them still have bunching, but the clear seems to be holding better than over art.

This is a multifacted issue and likely no one silver bullet to fix this.

I sure hope they can get it under control.

It is a very tough problem with likely MANY subcontractors, many moving parts in the manufacturing process, and also a very tough chemical and physical engineering problem to really get to the root cause and then solve (plus put in verification steps to make sure it does not go back to bad once fixed).

I think communication is always key in these matters and the company that comes out to more openly talk about it and the solutions being put in place will likely win the longer term loyalty of the customer base.

Thanks. I personally think it is difficult as there are lots of people, companies, etc... involved.
In my experience that can make even simple problems tough. It allows lots of blame shifting between them rather than accountability.

Every step has questions, possible root casues, and possible changes (many may not be divulged)
-Where does the wood come from/ what has changed?
-ink chemical changes?
-pf prep changes?
-clear chemical or application changes?

There is even a chance that this could all come down to a very simple thing which could easily be overlooked because a subcontractor does not even think of it as a change. For example "well yeah we put a new nozzle on our automatic clear coat robot, but all that did was change the spray pattern for better coverage in fewer passes" This could in effect change density of product which would impact the need for longer cure time between coats.

Sometimes these imperceptibly small changes can have huge down stream impacts.

Just a guess, but quite possible that you have a variety of wood providers to the pf cutting company. That pf cutting company has a variety of people handling the blanks differently on different machines. The printed has lots of automation and more each day and some ink colors may change chemical composition without them even knowing as they may come from lots of different supplies. same with basically every step of the process and we are dealing with wood, ink, clear, and assembly at minimum.

Even if the ink and clear are one subcontractor, then they have likely multiple sources for base ink and clear (or accelerators, etc...)

TLDR >> lots of possibilities for change that happened without people even realizing it and now you have to pick apart everything to get it fixed.

On the flip side, it can be easy to just restart and walk the process... but the time and cost associate with it can be huge.

yeah, I agree.

This is also the ONLY sure fire way to influence any company to find the real root cause and make the change.
If the buyers speak by no longer buying AND reach out to your distributor AND Stern directly to let them know why you are not buying, then they will change/fix it and respond.

honestly, it took probably 5 months of monthly pictures, calls, and emails. They have said they would replace, but that was over 6 weeks back and still no replacement has shown up.

If customers want this to be fixed then I suggest daily polite calls to both your distributor and Stern directly. Let them know you are not satisfied with the product and wont be buying more until they properly resolve this for you. Follow up with an email each day to document the phone call and give more photos.

They seem to have some threshold of "acceptable" which is far beyond what pretty much any customer deems acceptable for a NIB game. After the most recent frustration of being strung along for months, then being told they would replace, and still no replacement has arrived; I think their threshold is that you have to show blistering/ bunching in multiple areas that cant be hidden with a metal washer and show cracking/lifting of art.

what is wrong with MUN and Maiden?

I am going with one of the following

Flipper coil stops imploded
Ramp optos on Maiden
Munster mini pf issues
pulling apart to add washers for pf post issues
node board issues
gi bulb shorting issues

Pls report back after a couple hundred plays.

please do.

Took us month after month after month after month of sending more and more photos of how bad Beatles was (nevermind the fact that it is also on JP, BK3, Maiden; just not as bad as Beatles was). They finally agreed to send a new playfield blank about 6 weeks ago. We are now told we will get that pf in about 1 more month from now. I will update when it arrives.

It seems to me that Stern does not think it warrants any sort of fix (beyond washers on new games?) unless it continues to get worse over time and the bunching ends up cracking/chipping off art.

It also frankly took WAY too much effort to get a replacement.

I got the impression they hoped we would eventually just stop sending pictures and then they would forget about us.
NO customer should have to go through anything besides filing the very first report.

They really need to get on top of the pf issue. However, they also need to get on top of how they are shifting blame and treating their customers.

I can deal with and understand mistakes happen. It is how they deal with and treat the customer on the back in that really matters.

Great post. As a point of reference, I recently pulled a piece of Mylar from the upper orbit of maiden. The smell of uncured clearcoat was so strong it was amazing! Do doubt about how soft it still was and just sealed in by the Mylar.

I like your attitude. Unfortunately, when many people are rightfully pissed about being sold a knowingly defective product, it is sometimes hard to bottle that emotion. Esp if you have to deal with the smugness that Stern can often come off with towards their paying customer base.

At a certain point, you have to remember that we are the customers and nice goes out the window.
Sometimes it is important to back a manufacturer into an uncomfortable spotlight.

I guess I would reply

"That is odd, I have reports in for Deadpool, Maiden, Beatles, and JP2. Very interesting that I am 50% of the reports and it has been on 100% of the games I have purchased in the past 18 months."

"My real world experiences do not match yours"

yes

They have in the past done the populated pf replacement thing. They send you a box with pre-paid shipping. You disconnect and send your entire pf.
They take off your parts and repopulate a brand new pf and return it to you. You connect your new pf.

after 4 (or was it 5?) months of continual communication and updates on how bad it was and things getting worse, they agreed to provide a blank Beatles playfield to us. It has not arrived yet (I assumed they are trying to figure out the issues).
I am told it will arrive soon/ by expo.

I think the real reason that Stern and JJP need to not only fix this issue but make a public statement about it is for their own bottom line.

There is no doubt in my mind as a personal collector that the high price of games is being propped up by the only 15-20% loss at resale. As a collector I am willing to buy a NIb game, knowing that I am basically renting it IF i opt to sell in the future. I can put a couple thousand plays on a game in the comfort of my own home and then sell for $500-800 less down the road. (in many cases the rising prices of NIB have actually allowed you to sometimes sell for more)

When we start to see sales of these games and people are taking 25-35% loss at resale then I believe the new sales will dry up. People will all have a different point of cost they are willing to put into any hobby. I have to think we are getting closer to that point sooner rather than later with this pf issue.

Everyone seems willing to take a hit on one dud game, but when they start to pile up then NIB sales will also (they appear to be already with how quick EV3 comes after JP2 in my opinion). This is a very slippery slope that they can still get out in front of... or they can lie, deny, and treat their customer base poorly.

worked for "where's the code?"

currently as in stuff coming off the line right now?

because there are already pictures of stuff made last week with the same issues.

JP prem/LE which just started going out the door and have the same issues.
Pics out there of it.

I assume JPLE 'just' started shipping?

Cancel your order yet?

Possible they just had to use up old pf stock so they used an art under posts version.

Also possible that they made it a while back and it has been sitting in warehouse waiting to be unboxed.

Wait till the game has around 300-500 plays and then use it as a data point would be my suggestion.

Beatles seem to be the worst of all IME. If it has not blistered yet then just wait a few hundred more plays. You may be a lucky one but you are not out of the words yet.

I dont know about AP service, but pretty much every Houdini from the first few runs had pf issues. The one on route locally had inserts falling out after a couple thousand plays.

I never heard if they resolved the issue as honestly I have not found either of their offerings very fun so kinda stopped paying attention to the pf quality issues.

I assume there was. Game was at geeks mania in Madison. I think the distributor had to get involved to get it sorted out.

Honestly I dont know/remember the details, but that was one of the worse PF issues I have seen of all the things that have plagued many of the manufactures.
I hope you really are not trying to act like it did not happen...

glad to hear it got sorted out for them.

you likely understand that what a company is going to say here publicly about a manufacturer that ended up resolving a problem and the reality of seeing and playing a game myself which had major playfield issues are two very different realities. You will never trust me but I dont really care to be honest.

Wish I had taken pictures. The game was a wreck. I went over 3 times specifically to play the game and evaluate it for purchase. I spoke with one of their employees about the issues and got their honest opinion on it at that time. Needless to say it convinced me to wait/not buy. I also heard the full story from the distributor of that game, which further helped me make the decision at that time.

I think the bigger explanation of issues and importance is that it was a 1st run and has been resolved. That is what important and glad to see it was resolved for the customer.

That however does not change the reality that the game/pf had major flaws.

Pretty sure the “pill inserts” in the chain had cracked out. Tech told me he had to reglue them and arrow inserts were showing same issues. I remember playing and ball trajectory changing as it rolled over the chain inserts cause they had dropped.
At that time they were understandably not happy with the situation. Again, glad they got a replacement pf, and were all taken care of.

in short >>

-4 plus months of weekly or biweekly emails showing the issues to both distributor and Stern support
-Lots of work to keep on them (I get the impression they are hoping many will just give up over time)
-once our playfield bunching started to chip off in 1/4 to 1/2 inch sections at posts, then it finally seemed to cross the threshold from "acceptable" to "defect" in their eyes. BS in mu opinion but that seemed to be what it took.

We received a supposedly new/ 'fixed' blank playfield that we can swap in at some point.

Honestly, the response is a joke and the most frustrating thing is that it took regular communication from us with basically no return communication in order to keep the case open.

that is good news!

You are the second person that I have heard this from.

Now the question is... what are they doing for those of us that got defective pfs right out of the box?

can you share a bunch of photos?

I am contemplating a purchase for myself and would love to see.

Good call and god damn Stern! Wake up. When long time and big time collectors like Tom are saying F your brand then you need to take notice.

Sad it has gotten so bad that even fervent long time collectors are packing it in.

Stuck balls happen

Pretty sure Stern has and continues to use multiple manufacturers for playfields.

They may use one for the initial run of quick titan around for first set of games.

They use others for the main run.

They have used others for overflow or when the main cant get stuff done on the timeframe.

They have some woodworking in house and are likely doing the majority of cutting and insert placement for main runs.