(Topic ID: 249870)

Continued playfield issues with JJP and Stern

By f3honda4me

5 months ago

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#256 5 months ago
Quoted from Dr-pin:

That pf will look like a nightmare in ten years.

This is unbelievable i tell ya.

#298 4 months ago
Quoted from Shapeshifter:

Sadly, this has 'cured' my pinball addiction of wanting the new, shiny.

Same here brother..i wouldn't buy a game right now if i had a million dollars sitting in the bank. Its not worth the headache.

#344 4 months ago
Quoted from zaphX:

But at the end of the day it really is a minor blemish that doesn't affect gameplay enjoyment.

"Hey your playfield is chipping to pieces and looks like phuking shit dude". "Yeah i know, not a big deal, its just a minor blemish on a 10K game.......doesnt bother me at all".

Dude are you f*cking serious? You are either rich beyond belief or really really dumb!

#348 4 months ago
Quoted from MrBally:

Maybe Gary is overseas with "Spotty Cell Service" too.

I can hear Gary and Jack now everytime they answer the phone and someone is on the other end bitching about their playfield. "Hello hello....can you hear me now?" "Sorry im going to have to call you back, im not getting good service where im at." Lol

#357 4 months ago
Quoted from zaphX:

Neither is the case. Life is short, I choose not to let this issue ruin my fun.

I never said that i was going to let it ruin my life, that's being a little dramatic don't you think? When i buy a new game though, that is a lot of money to me because im just an average Joe and not rich. I have to work a lot of hours to buy a game and really save hard.

Why do i do it? I do it because i love pinball and all of the lights and sounds etc and one of the things that i love about pinball is the gorgeous colors and artwork. Pinball machines in my eyes are beautiful and when you combine everything that i just said, i want to keep them looking that way.

A playfield with the artwork chipping off is not beautiful at all and heres the thing, it's probably going to keep getting worse. A HUO game should remain super nice even 10-20 years down the road.

#463 4 months ago
Quoted from BMore-Pinball:

that would defeat the purpose of the washers.
With the washers, they are trying to enlarge the footprint to reduce stress in a concentrated area
But it's a band-aid and does not address the real issue nor prevent future issues in other areas
I am really having second thoughts on my JP premium
I was super excited about this pin but could be just as happy playing what i have now while Stern figures this out

I honestly believe that Shapeshifter has the right idea by using the mylar circles.

#466 4 months ago
Quoted from JodyG:

This isn't possible...their games are already built to last, its right on their web site!! [quoted image]

Yeah that chipping playfield really is a head turner. They are right about that part at least.

#514 4 months ago
Quoted from Kiwipinhead:

Add Munters LE to the list
Checked my pictures when I unboxed and no damage, can't be enough "cure time" as spent 2 months getting shipped here, less than 300 plays.[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]

My Munsters Premium looks identical to your game. If it doesnt get worse then i really wouldn't care, but im afraid thats not going to be the case.

#670 4 months ago
Quoted from JohnnyPinball007:

I think maybe when buying NIB these days do a fingernail test on the playfield before ever playing a game.

Kinda hard ro do that to a game thats inside of a thick cardboard box.

#672 4 months ago
Quoted from JohnnyPinball007:

Yeah take it out of the box, take the glass off, and test it with a fingernail somewhere hidden. If it is soft contact the manufacturer and ask for advice about how long for it to sit, and any other advice. Sucks but what else can you do if you want NIB?

From what i am understanding if your game has soft clearcoat it will never harden. Also all of the posts that are tightened down into the playfyare going to have pooling anyways and then possibly chip so i don't think theres much that can be done. If you want a NIB right now it would be smart to just wait until these problems get sorted out. I am definitely NOT a buyer right now.

#680 4 months ago

For those using neoprene washers what size fit the smaller posts in the playfield?

#702 4 months ago
Quoted from underlord:

Yep. They will take care of ya real good.
And yes, they’ve proven their worth...in spades.

Me thinks someone is in for a rude awakening don’t you?

#771 4 months ago

Went to a barcade yesterday and here's what i saw.

JP-pooling and chipping
IMDN-pooling and a piece of clearcoat flaking off in the middle of the playfield
Deadpool- didnt look but im sure it probably had issues as well.

At my house:

IMDN-pooling and chipping after 600 plays

For anyone who thinks this isn't a big problem, you better think again because its HUGE I guarantee it!

#773 4 months ago
Quoted from Vinnie:

Went to my local barcade and saw a similar thing: IMDN pooling at most posts(not chipping yet), pooling in one spot on Deadpool, didn't see any issues on Star Wars.
My IMDN chipped around 600 plays and has pooling at about 13 different places. The IMDN at the barcade is over a year old. Mine was manufactured in June. So two machines at least a year apart in manufacturing are having similar problems with the clear. Ironically my newer machine is worse.

The clearcoat that was flaking off in the middle of the playfield really concerned me more than anything. I have never heard of that on anyones game yet. These playfields are junk compared to older games by Stern.

#778 4 months ago
Quoted from delt31:

wow. This is even bigger than I thought. If this becomes the norm around the industry, I'm out of new pinball. Period.

I feel the same way delt. I want a Jurassic Park bad and Elvira 3 is a dream theme for me but im just not buying right now, i cant. I have other friends that are feeling the same way. They want a JP2 and they just wont buy one because of the playfield issues.

#779 4 months ago
Quoted from cpr9999:

What did Stern or your distributor say?
Nag them.

Haven't heard back yet.

#787 4 months ago
Quoted from tpir:

My JP2 money is currently allocated towards whatever CGC's next table is, or possibly a MBr...

I was thinking the exact same thing earlier. I kinda want a MBR anyways so that could be the direction that i go in.

#791 4 months ago
Quoted from PtownPin:

MBR is a great game...CGC did a nice jog...I wish they would remake the MM with the larger screen to match my other remakes

I struggle between MBR and MMR. Which would be your choice of you could only have one?

#907 4 months ago

Not trying to be a smartass but you guys wont feel like you were made whole when you have to pay someone 2 grand to so a playfield swap for you. Still isn't an acceptable resolution by Jack in my opinion.

#912 4 months ago
Quoted from vicjw66:

Maybe $1000-$1200 but the point is still valid. Damn, that’s twice now I’ve agreed with that guy.

The people that i know charge 1000 to 1500 for an older game for a playfield swap. A game that has as much shit on the playfield as POTC or WONKA i just figured would be in the 2K range.

I just dont understand why people are so giddy and saying "oh boy Jack called me personally and apologized, and now life is just wonderful....yippee!!!!"

Its a business move and a business move only folks so calm down. The fact is he tried to screw you by turning people down and then charging 550 dollars for a playfield and now he's still screwing you by giving people a new playfield for free.

His games cost 8-13K, nothing less than a fully populated playfield is acceptable. Some of you guys are gullible as f*ck. SMH

#913 4 months ago
Quoted from cooked71:

I think if you get actual chipping (not just pooling) and get given a replacement PF free of charge that's a good and realistic outcome. It's a good halfway between no compensation and complete populated PF swap.

Cooked you know i love ya and you are one of my favorite pinsiders but there shouldn't be no halfway on a 6-13K game. The customer should not be out one penny for a defective playfield. It's 100% JJP and Sterns fault, the customer shouldn't be out any money because of these shit playfields.

#914 4 months ago
Quoted from meSz:

2 grand? WOW I was under charging!

Maybe, how much do you charge?

#917 4 months ago
Quoted from Parzival:

Not trying to be a smartass, but have you got a got a free playfield for Iron Maiden or Munsters? Also, when has Gary called you personally to apologize and offer a solution?
Keep in mind, I own 4 Sterns as well so I'm not a fanboy.

No i haven't got a resolution yet and i have no idea how things will even turn out, but if they f*ck me and Gary calls me and trys to butter me up im not going to feel any better about getting screwed i can tell you that right now.

There's very few people that i look up to and none of them are owners of a pinball company. Jack and Gary put their pants on just like you and i do.

#919 4 months ago
Quoted from Parzival:

LMK when you get your populated playfield for Iron Maiden and Munsters - I'll take mine for Deadpool LE and Iron Maiden Premium at that point too
So silly this turns into a manufacturer debate - there's room for more than one company in pinball

I think if you'll look back in the thread that you will find out that YOU are the one that turned it into a manufacturers debate. I think EVERY manufacturer should stand behind their product, i dont care who they are. I'll go after Stern just like i do JJP if they fail to make their customers whole. Im not happy with Stern or JJP eirher one right now iver these shitty ass playfields.

#924 4 months ago
Quoted from Parzival:

I love Stern just as much as you

I don't love Stern at the moment. I'm very frustrated with these playfield issues.

#927 4 months ago
Quoted from cooked71:

Yeh I can definitely see your side. These issues are happening out of the box, so the argument that “ this is pinball” doesn’t really hold when no pinball has been played on the game.
I’ve had my fair share of serious Playfield issues. Almost all other issues can be resolved relatively easily. But Pf damage is usually “terminal”. I’m lucky in that I have the equipment and space to do a full pf swap - (and I actually enjoy it). But I still believe having a brand new NOS pf to offer when selling a game is at least as good or even better than a used one installed.

Yeah its better than nothing thats for sure. Im just thinking about the people that cant do a playfield swap, which would be most everyone in the hobby. Its so frustrating because i know that they can do better and that it doesn't have to be this way.

If i give my hard earned cash to a pinball company, i want it to be to a company that takes as much pride in making their games as i take in owning them and im just not seeing that right now. These are super expensive games/toys and they should be treated as such quality wise.

#930 4 months ago

1K for say a Meteor and 1K also for a JJP POTC? Theres a huge difference there in the amount of work that you would have to do isn't there?

#973 4 months ago
Quoted from Mike_J:

Most here aren’t willing or capable of doing the swap.

AND dont forget this either, just because you dont notice a pooling and/or chipping playfield for a year doesn't mean that it wasnt defective from the factory because it in fact WAS defective on day one!

#977 4 months ago
Quoted from Darscot:

There are plenty of people that are and you only need one buyer. These are the very latest released pins, even in a couple years you are going to have a line up of buyers. If I'm the only guy in the line not trying to get $1000 off because it needs a swap, lucky me and lucky seller. I think people underestimate how many people in pinball spend as much time working on them as playing them.
P.S. Whats a swap going to take 20-30 hours, shit I put more than that into a video game and at the end I just feel like a slob that just spend 30 hours sitting on my ass. I would much rather work on a pin and have a dime piece at the end.

20 or 30 hours for a playfield swap? Ha.....good luck with that!

#981 4 months ago
Quoted from clg:

Easily done I think.

No way. Lets just assume you’re right though. If it takes 20 hours to do a playfield swap then Stern and JJP can probably do it in half of that time easily so why dont they do it for the customers that are affected if its such an easy task?

#985 4 months ago
Quoted from PanzerFreak:

All playfields are not affected by this issue. There's multiple reports of JJP Pirates and Wonka playfields that don't have the pooling or chipping issue.

Most are though. If you don’t believe me get out of the house and go visit your local barcades. This IS a widespread issue Panzer believe me.

#993 4 months ago
Quoted from MrBally:

I've completed several swaps of Eight Ball Deluxe and Centaur playfields. 20-22 hours each including troubleshooting and adjustments for me.

If you say that you can I believe you because i know that you are a straight up guy, BUT you obviously work on pins a lot right? How long did it take you the very first time that you did a playfield swap and what about those people that are just not capable of doing one?

I just don’t understand why its ok and even considered acceptable by some for a pinball company to sell someone a defective product that cost ten thousand dollars and then tell them to get screwed. If the consumer has no protection against things like this then why aren't car companies telling their customers to get f***** when they buy a new car and the motor or transmission goes out?

#996 4 months ago
Quoted from PinballTilt:

Had to take the bait on this one. It's because this issue as of now is a minor cosmetic issue that you can barely see when playing. A motor in a car is a major component that stops the car from functioning. If you can't complete the swap or don't want to, well you have some artwork and still have a perfectly functioning game. Just my $0.02, I'm happy with this resolution

A defect is a defect no matter how large or how small and new products are supposed to be free from defects. Chipping and pooling is also not normal or acceptable on a new pinball playfield.

#1086 4 months ago
Quoted from Hawks:

All this pooling talk has had me checking out the pinballs in my collection
I have pooling on the slingshot posts on both Batman 66 (2016 build) & Star Wars (2017 build)
Tonnes of games have been put on both machines, with no signs of chipping or wear
So make of that what you will, I never would have even noticed the pooling, had all this recent discussion not taken place
For the record, the pooling on both of my machines looks to be on par with the examples others have posted

I dont think most people would care about the pooling as long as they knew that it wouldn't end up chipping someday. My IMDN however did chip and that sucks. Who knows what that chip might lead to down the road?

#1090 4 months ago
Quoted from Sako-TRG:

My IMDN has noticeable pooling around all the large stem posts but has not chipped so far.
If / when it does, I’m sure I will be told this is due to wear and tear.
The pin is still under warranty in UK
I guess if I was offered a free unpopulated playfield in the event it chipped later down the line then that would be good enough for me.....since it’s not at the chipping stage.[quoted image][quoted image]

Hopefully it wont ever chip. Thats the problem, we just dont know whats going to happen down the road. The pooling doesn't bother me at all as long as it doesn't chip. Another thing, what happens if you had to remove a post with pooling around it? Will it pull up the clearcoat and the artwork when you go to remove it? Another who knows situation i guess.

#1092 4 months ago
Quoted from Sako-TRG:

Yep, exactly, I toyed with that idea then thought better of it. Didn’t fancy the idea of having clear and ink lifting with the hex nuts. This is why Jack at JJP informed his customers recently on the Podcast not to remove posts when investigating playfield issues. I wonder why........
I guess I’ll be cleaning and waxing around the posts. I also moved a ball towards the posts and the diameter hits the post and ball doesn’t touch the clear at base of post. However vibrations of hits to the posts could potentially cause the clear to crack around the posts.

Ive thought of the exact same thing. When the ball hits a post, it has to put a ton of stress in the area around that post i would think.

#1111 4 months ago

I think we need to ban all trucks.

#1118 4 months ago
Quoted from greenhornet:

when it comes to JJP and stern fixing their current clear coat issues,
i know if they put their minds to it,
i know they really can do it.
but its gonna take money
a whole lotta spending money
its gonna take plenty of money
to do it right, child
its gonna take time
a whole lot of precious time
its gonna take patience and time, um
to do it, to do it, to do it, to do it, to do it
to do it right !

I bet there ain’t no dimpling on dat Azz there! Just sayin

#1123 4 months ago
Quoted from zaphX:

You should see the threads about pedestrians causing paint damage over on Truckside...hoo boy, it's a mess!

Truckside lol. That was pretty good!

#1129 4 months ago
Quoted from MrBally:

Of course if you're in a Tesla, you'll be fine since they are the best-built, highest quality vehicles there are. Just like JJP machines.

Those Teslas can avoid all accidents. They can see a wreck coming a mile away and steer away from it on their own.

They are sweet cars, i have a couple if friends that own them and they impressive. Super fast too!

#1133 4 months ago
Quoted from underlord:

You kidding? My job is pure man town.
I fix cars and trucks. Damned dirty, dangerous fun. Never outgrew my matchboxes.

Wait until the U.S. only has 2 car companies, Toyota and Honda. You will be out of a job then because they never break down. I heard thats gonna happen in like 2 years.

#1155 4 months ago
Quoted from snaroff:

My solution is to simply avoid NIB purchases...

Im definitely feeling the same thing at the moment. I hate feeling that way too because i really want a JP and a Elvira 3 but they have to win my confidence back at this point and them making a statement saying that they have identified the problem and corrected it would go a long ways.

MultiballManiac was going to buy a JP Premium and bought a new Super Chexx bubble hockey instead. Im thinking that might not be a bad idea..

#1193 4 months ago
Quoted from fattdirk:

. I think this issue is being blown out of proportion.

Until your playfield chips like mine did, then it really sucks.

#1260 4 months ago
Quoted from C_Presley:

Called my distributor yesterday when he wanted final payment for jp2 LE. I asked him his position and what he’s heard. Stern is STILL saying 7 or 8 documented cases.....

Either hes lying or they are.

#1273 4 months ago

Im going to give them a little time and see if they get this corrected because i want a JP and a Elvira 3, but im also now considering something different for my game room like a Bubble Hockey machine because I refuse to by another new pinball machine with a shitty playfield. Stern needs to find a way to win me back as a customer.

#1275 4 months ago
Quoted from PtownPin:

I just ordered up a Super Chexx Miracle on Ice....my kids and I have played this before....its a lot of fun I wouldn't buy shit from Stern or JJP until these issues are long gone...all the people on this thread who don't think its a big issue don't have pooling or chipping on their play fields...

Ive never played Bubble hockey but my buddy is getting one and its got me thinking about one a small amount at least. Ive heard many people say that they are a blast to play. I wish that i could play one somewhere but theres nine aroung that i know of. I bet a four player game on one would be a blast though. The downside to them is you cant play it by yourself.

#1277 4 months ago
Quoted from PtownPin:

Yea thats only downside, which makes pins, and arcades so attractive.....its a really fun game if u have people to play with....great family fun

Maybe a Big Buck Hunter? Yeeee haaaaw!

#1281 4 months ago
Quoted from PanzerFreak:

The funny thing is that every new game that Stern installs those large metal washers on is an admission from them that the game may suffer from pooling / chipping despite their "there's no widespread playfield issues" line.

What about JJP? You love to Stern bash but you never say much about JJP seems like.

#1357 4 months ago
Quoted from PtownPin:

I asked one of my distributors for a price/delivery quote on the new Dinosaur game from Stern (premium).....I then asked if they've solved the play field issues, and he was honest and said no. He said that Stern is aware of the pooling/chipping problem and working on a solution. Also said that sales have significantly slowed on JJP and Stern games....so yes its impacting the manufacturers.....lets hope they actually come out with a solution so we can talk about something else

There are tons of people wanting to buy Jurassic Park right now if they had the confidence to do it and i am one of them. I think Stern would be wise to let it be known that the problem is resolved once they get it figured out. Of course the other problem is you got a bunch of bad games sitting in boxes at distributors right now and people will not want anything that is old stock so they wont buy because of that.

#1389 4 months ago
Quoted from NPO:

That's their hope. Sub-par quality product, price increase, and customers are ok with it.
Maybe we'll get to the point they remove fuses, fires break out, and customers are ok with parts of their house burning up - especially in all those basements.
Over-the-top silly, I know, and that's intentional. Never thought I'd see the day people pay $8K+ for a product, get a PF on the side with the eventual need for it to be swapped out on their less than 30 day old toy, and be ok with it.

Rick is a good guy and I have other friends on here that share his same thoughts but I will never back down from saying a fully populated "quality" playfield is the only acceptable resolution to the problem. I'm not being so hardcore because I'm an asshole (ok maybe I am), I'm being hardcore because it's the right thing for these companies to do. 5-10k is a lot of money and you should get a great quality product at those prices.

1 week later
#1676 4 months ago
Quoted from o-din:

Check out the playfield on my 1956 Williams 4 Bagger De Luxe. None of that here either.[quoted image]

I love those old baseball games, such a blast to play.

#1678 4 months ago
Quoted from o-din:

It's a good one! Really adds something to the garage game room.
It has a formica playfield top similar to the countertops in the Brady Bunch kitchen. Pretty tough stuff.

Looks like a brand new game.

#1682 4 months ago
Quoted from Jvspin:

Any progress yet with your playfield issues?

Haven't hear anything yet. Will be calling soon

#1699 4 months ago
Quoted from bellbrand:

Can someone post the picture of the washers making the pooling worse. I was going to put some on but rethinking it now.

Go to the Jurassic park thread and you will see plenty pics of it.

#2071 3 months ago
Quoted from PtownPin:

instead of buying the latest dinosaur game from Stern (JPLE) I purchased a Galaxy Fire electronic Dart board and a Miracle on Ice Super Chexx Pro bubble hockey game.....and saved $1500

I am also thinking about a Super Chexx Pro myself. I got two bad playfields right now and i want JP2 and Elvira 3 both but i just cant pull the trigger on a new Stern right now. The bubble hockey games look awesome and plus it will add variety to your gameroom.

#2073 3 months ago
Quoted from hawkmoon77:

I bought the superchex (like 6 months before the pro came out). It's fantastic.

Is it more fun with four people or two? Im going to guess four?

1 week later
#2314 3 months ago
Quoted from GorillaBiscuits:

No comment from Stern since my Maiden LE was acknowledged to be passed on to QC over a month ago.
Really wanted a JP and Elvira. I’ve since picked up four solid states and I have an Iron Man on the way.
They can continue sweeping this under the rug and I’ll continue not buying their latest games.

You’re not alone, im going on 2 months without a response. I called my distributor yesterday to have them follow up on my IMDN Premium. I got two games that i want to buy right now (JP and Elvira 3) but im not buying anything until i see what they are going to do about my IMDN game. All of this pooling and chipping has ruined the NIB experience for me.

#2370 3 months ago
Quoted from YeOldPinPlayer:

Thanks for the detailed response.
What would you suggest to someone who has 'pooling' or 'blistering' and has sent photos but heard nothing in 30 days? If a manufacturer claimed it fell within their range of acceptable since you could still play pinball what would your response be?

I personally think that pooling is a manufacturers defect from day one and it shouldn’t matter when the buyer notices it. I think the customer should be made whole even if its a year down the road, especially if there is chipping on the playfield where it pooled. This about Stern owning up to their defect and making the customer whole in good faith to keep that customer and not any legal stuff.

#2595 3 months ago
Quoted from PW79:

Buy 4-5 NIB games with F'd clearcoat
Or...[quoted image]

New cars are a waste of money also. Buy a Bube hockey now and wait for the playfield issues to get resolved. That's what I'm doing.

#2601 3 months ago
Quoted from PW79:

But I want to wear Affliction T shirts & weird fancy jeans.
That truck is the final piece of the puzzle.

Please tell me that you dont wear skinny Jean's PW?

#2626 3 months ago
Quoted from markp99:

I see dimples, is that normal?

Only on a cute girls face.

1 week later
#2732 88 days ago
Quoted from Tranquilize:

I've heard crickets as well. Not even an email to tell me I've been denied service...

Same here, been 2 months
I also want to buy a JP and plan to buy many more games down the road but if they dont even have the courtesy to get back to me, a guy that has already bought seven NIB games from them then I will never buy NIB again.

1 week later
#2793 81 days ago
Quoted from WackyBrakke:

I’m enjoying my Elvira and the Playfield looks perfect so far with almost 800 games on it

800 plays? Didn't you just get the game a few days ago?

#2818 78 days ago
Quoted from DanDanDAN:

One thing I can assure everyone is American Pinball's customer service is top notch
That issue was before my time here so I can't comment on what did or didn't happen

Too late, damage is already done now.

#2824 78 days ago
Quoted from Manic:

Oh c'mon now... that's one of the very FEW complaints I've ever heard about AP's service. Every other company *wishes* they had such a stellar record.

I agree that AP seems to have a pretty good reputation but my point was they already did that to him. The owners of AP I am sure was aware of his issues and they chose to just ignore him so they most likely already burned their bridges with him and I'm sure that just because they have a new guy over their customer service now that they arent just going to be able to win him back.

I'm not saying that AP is a bad company, I have no idea if they are or not. I'm just saying that they he feels like they treated him wrong and screwed him. That leaves a bad taste in most peoples mouths for a long long time. These pinball companies better get their shit together and start treating their customers right or they are going to do under.

#2898 76 days ago
Quoted from jfh:

How much is it worth if you don’t have a salary?

$7.50 an hour

#2948 75 days ago
Quoted from GorillaBiscuits:

Still waiting to hear back regarding my Iron Maiden LE after more than three months.
Really want to buy a JP, picked up an Iron Man instead... and another 4 other non Stern games before that... no regrets.
Guess what? That Iron Man has 10k plays on it and it looks perfect. My 9k Maiden LE? Maybe 400, pooling everywhere, will probably start chipping soon. So lame.
If they fix my messed up 9k game I’ll go back to supporting them.
Otherwise, add me to the list of never NIB again if this gets swept under the rug... and I’ve bought a bunch over the years.
Also, a blank playfield is a serious kick to the balls... but at this point it seems like I’ll be lucky to get even that.

Yep I'm going on 3 months as well and I've heard nothing but f*cking crickets. To say I'm disappointed and pissed off would be an understatement.

I've bought 7 new Sterns and I love their games but for now they have lost me as a customer until i see what they are going to do which appears to be nothing.

I would love to have a JP2 and maybe a Elvira 3 but instead I am ordering a new Super Chexx Pro next week and my next game will most likely me a MBR SE. You wanna treat me, a good customers like shit and disrespect me by not even having the decency to respond to me then all I can say is F-YOU!! I'll just spend my money elsewhere.

#2969 74 days ago
Quoted from woody76:

Just left the nashville show.
Played a JP premium that is a newer run. The clear coat was so thin the playfield art impressions were showing through it. Did not have a chance to touch it but guarantee you can feel it with your fingers.

They better get a handle on this fast or they're done for.

#2991 73 days ago

The thickness of the clearcoat isnt the issue. The clearcoat not hardening properly seems to be the issue. I honestly dont think they have a clue what the hell is going on. That's why I'm staying away from NIB until they get this shit figured out. They should have never broke their partnership with CGC. CGC I guarantee you is laughing their asses of at Stern right now and rightfully so.

#3011 73 days ago
Quoted from CLEllison:

Hello Stern support?
I have playfield issues on my NIB
"Heavy breath exhale heard" what kind of issues?
The clear coat is pooled around the posts.
How many games have you played?
I dont know maybe 15 thus far?
Does it affect your gameplay?
Well no, but I'm concerned as no other game has this occurring.
Tech raises middle finger and rolls his eyes. I'll go ahead and document your concern. Is there anything else I can help you with today?
Uhmm, I guess not?
Great thank you for calling.
Hello Stern support?
I called in previously here's the case #
Uhmm, the clear is starting to chip around the posts now
How many games have you played?
Around 40?
Does it affect your game play? (flipping you off)
Well, no but I don't think this is normal or acceptable is it?
Yes, wear and tear is normal.
If it's normal why does none of my other machines not exhibit this?
We consider wear and tear to be normal. I've updated your record. Is there anything else I can help you with (grabbing crotch and fingering the phone).
I guess not
Thanks for calling
Hello Visa support?
Yes how may I help you today?
I need to file a charge back.

That's some funny shit but I would say that you are spot on!

#3016 72 days ago
Quoted from Kiwipinhead:

My distributor has told me Stern wont do anything about pooling around the posts.

They wont do anything about it but we the customers can do something about it. Not buy their f*cking shit anymore!

#3018 72 days ago
Quoted from pinballaddicted:

Are you going to buy any more games? You are in a small market like us in Australia. If you stop buying games, this will hurt your distro. Your distro should go in and help you out, do their best to sort out a solution for you. That is my opinion.
Our distro told us the same thing, we have pooling on 2 games and we have friends all over the world with plenty of pooling games as well. Looks like Stern will only help out if the playfields start chipping out, and then looks like Stern are extremely selective on who they are helping out.
Thank you to all the Pinsiders posting their resolutions with JJP and Stern. This gives the rest of us an idea on what to expect.

They aren't helping on games that are chipping either unfortunately. I first turned in my ticket on my IMDN chipping and pooling playfield almost 3 months ago. I let 2 months go buy and called my distributor again and they supposedly submitted another ticket again.....still crickets, have not hear one F'ing word.

At this point I'm pissed at Stern and I'm also fed up with my distributor because I feel like they dont give a shit either and in the not too distant future I am going to throw their ass under the bus also on here for everyone to see. I can hurt them more than they are hurting me.

#3035 72 days ago
Quoted from pinballaddicted:

I think we also need to be patient so Stern can start making older playfields without the playfield art going right up to the posts.
No good if you get a IMDN, DP or MUN playfield and it is the same as the one you already have. Same shit will happen. Wait until the playfields have been remade, start demanding stuff then.
I like the CC idea but how long before you can make a charge back? If the game is 2 years old, I am not so sure the CC company will accept the charge back. We buy every game on plastic. Suits my wife as she loves the points.

I dont mind being patient at all. Heck if they told me that it would be a year or longer I wouldnt even care as my situation doesnt require immediate attention, but I just want to hear something besides crickets. It's very disrespectful of them to not even acknowledge a customers issues. I just want to get my defective playfield replaced and unfortunately for Stern the only way I'm going to be happy is with a populated playfield and not a unpopulated one. Some people may think that's unreasonable but so be it. They sold me a shitty product (2 actually), and thats their fault not mine.

#3045 72 days ago
Quoted from pinballaddicted:

I agree. A response would be nice. Maybe we are not important enough to Stern to even respond to an email? That is how I feel.

Yup, that's all I want is a response and to be treated decent like a customer should be treated. I dont think that's too much to ask out of them honestly.

I'm sure they would like to keep my business probably but they need to put a little effort in to making me a satisfied customer and so far they have done nothing.

#3048 72 days ago
Quoted from Jvspin:

You've been one of Stern's most vocal supporters and responder to those who criticize them, as well as buying a bunch of their games.
IMO, if they're being selective about who gets taken care of, it's very short sighted of them not to take care of you, and in a timely manner.

Thanks and I agree with you but on the other hand I think everyone should be taken care of the same whether you buy one game or twenty. They probably dont know who I am between real life and here I guess.

I still love their games and think that they have the potential to just blow away the entire market but they just dont seem to be serious enough about their quality and giving their customers what they want. I have know idea why they cant make a great quality playfield but if they were smart they would make it a priority and put the right people in place to make it happen. Their business would be booming if they did that.

#3092 72 days ago
Quoted from iceman44:

If you haven't heard that Christopher Franchi interview it confirms again what we all know.
Gary and crew think they are so smart seeing how much they can squeeze out of a game and keep the prices sky high.
I would be thinking about how we could squeeze MORE in even if i had to raise prices to meet our margins. The "wealth effect" and great economy is not going to last forever! Because when the shit hits the fan, and it will, people will remember how they were treated.
The customer first should be what they think about every day. How can we keep delivering a greater pinball experience to our customers?
I think most designers, coders and everyone else that work at Stern are of that mindset and care passionately.
It's Gary and his partners grabbing the short term gains, and at the same time its setting up for longer term pain. That +25% production can turn around to -25% in the blink of an eye when you take your customers for granted AND then other factors start to against you like the economy.
I think you made the 100% right move getting that MMrRE

Stern would never hire you with an attitude like that because you make way too much sense.

#3102 71 days ago
Quoted from finman2000:

I would like to hear from some Automated customers that have playfield issues. How are they resolving the issues?

They are probably at the mercy of Stern just like the rest of us but I do know people that deal with Automated and I have heard nothing but great things about them.

2 weeks later
#3158 57 days ago
Quoted from PW79:

& Who Dey ain't get'n shit from em.

They're making that pretty obvious. That's exactly why I haven't ordered my JP Premium yet also, waiting to see what they are going to do about my chipped playfield.

#3180 51 days ago
Quoted from PW79:

Anyone get a new populated PF yet?

Ha...you meant to say has anyone even got a phone call back from Stern yet right?

#3182 51 days ago
Quoted from cpr9999:

Aren’t those defects the new normal!!!
Good luck to getting them to do much. For the rare few that do - congrats.
The are cranking out the volume (with sub standard quality) - before the drop in market happens. Greed is good for them - but will only last so long before they will get back to lower volumes and higher quality focus.
Question is when ??????

They have lost out on two games from me personally just because they don't have the courtesy to even respond to me. My money is going toward a Super Chexx Pro and a CGC game.

#3202 47 days ago
Quoted from Fytr:

For what it is worth my distributor (Nitro) submitted my IMDNLE pictures to Stern last Wednesday and first thing this morning I received word that Stern has agreed to send me a replacement unpopulated playfield.
So maybe their process has matured and PF supply improved, at least with regard to IMDN.

Hey you're doing pretty good, I've been waiting five months with no reply at all. Guess I need to make another phone call tomorrow to my distributor.

#3245 43 days ago
Quoted from HookedonPinonics:

'm tired of bugging my distributor and Stern.

That's exactly what they are hoping for.

#3248 43 days ago
Quoted from CubeSnake:

Stern can and will continue to put out an inferior product as long as people are there waving $$$ at them. From all accounts here, they simply DO NOT CARE. Most people here won't pick up the phone and call Stern to lodge a complaint. Stern seems to know this. They seem to have an attitude that they are the only game in town. They're not. Not anymore. It isn't 2007 anymore and with the other pinball providers coming of age (Spooky, JJP, CGC, et al) with some damn good titles and excellent QC, Stern finally has some serious competition. It may be too late for them, though as potential buyers are keeping their NIB purchases from Stern on hold.
Stern seems to be the classic "victim of their own success".

They arent the only game in town but they kind of are. JJP is too expensive for many people and they also have quality problems and they have proven that they dont give a shit about their customers.

Spooky, it will take you a year to get your game, IF you can even get one and their games arent as fun as Sterns games either.

CGC is the best company out there but they only make remakes. If they start making their own games and they are good, they could really hurt Stern big time..

Deeproot....we will see what happens there. They are big talkers and they plan on taking a nice piece of the pie from Stern but so far they are just all talk.

Stern could bury them all except CGC if they wasnt so stupid. All they have to do is up their quality and they smash the competition but for some reason they don't seem to care about doing that. Stern makes killer games but their quality and terrible customer service is definitely hurting them. I am personally afraid to buy anything from them right now and I'm also pissed about their customer service so I won't buy right now because of that either.

#3254 43 days ago
Quoted from Jackalwere:

I ordered my ACNC at beginning of August and got it last week. That's 5 months. Early adopters are going to have a longer wait. And I love it just as much as Munsters. With the way the code is progressing, maybe a little more...

I actually like ACNC alot also. It's their best game by far. Really really great game for sure.

1 week later
#3278 34 days ago
Quoted from TomGWI:

As some of you know when I got my Jurassic Park from Stern the playfield had pooling. This is what it looks like now in the home environment.[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]

How many plays is on it now? It doesn’t look terrible but its still unacceptable for a new game and it will no doubt keep getting worse. I think pooling around the small posts is the worse area because the ball really smacks those posts hard and causes a lot of stress on the playfield.

#3295 34 days ago
Quoted from TomGWI:

I have had my distributor dealing with Stern. I did not contact them directly because they NEVER respond to my emails. My distributor told me I would get a new unpopulated playfield. That was back in early November. He has checked with them a few times about sending one out to me.

Anything less than a new populated playfield in your case is totally unacceptable. If your distro cant get that for you i would email and call stern and keep raising hell. Your distributor doesnt sound like much of a fightet, i would dump his or her ass also.

#3326 33 days ago
Quoted from PanzerFreak:

new GoldenTee for less then half the price with no headaches sounds more tempting.

Get a Super Chexx if you have someone to play with. That's what I did and it is soooooo much fun!! No playfield chipping either guaranteed!

#3369 31 days ago
Quoted from PanzerFreak:

The Stern playfield lottery is the main reason I'm hesitant to buy a Stranger Things. It does seem like premium and or LE Stern playfields are made better based on what I've been reading but that's just a guess.

They should all be made the same. It doesn't matter if you spend 6k or 9k you should still get a quality product. When you go buy a new car they don't say "if you want a nice paint job you have to buy the Cadillac, the cheaper cars have bad paint jobs with the paint chipping off of them"

#3384 30 days ago
Quoted from snaroff:

Car paint jobs vary pretty dramatically between car manufacturers (i.e. the paint quality on a Honda Civic isn't the same as an Audi R8). I've owned both, so I have first hand experience. Some manufacturers "upcharge" for certain colors.
In any event, most cars are painted by robots. Stern's games are built largely by humans. Whenever humans are doing the job, it's tougher to control quality...especially when you are likely employing humans at minimum wage and measuring them on day-to-day output (rather than quality).
I'm not excusing the quality issues...I sympathize with many folks having to deal with issues (including myself

All true but the paint doesnt chip off of even the cheap cars and It wouldn't be considered acceptable if it did, not by you or anyone else.

#3386 30 days ago
Quoted from T3quila:

Run consistently steel ball bearings with high speed over the hood of your car and post pictures how it holds up.
But I agree, I wonder if the clear coat chemicals changed.

Old games have had steel ball bearing rolling around in then for many many years and they hold up for lots of plays. I'm talking about brand new out of the box 6-10K games that have shit clearcoat. That is not normal Nd it is not acceptable. I do think that the clearcoat has changed due to EPA BS and I think that's exactly where the problem lies. The only part that I dont understand is some recent games have been ok and some arent.

#3388 30 days ago
Quoted from T3quila:

I was just messing with you.
I would figure the clear coat chemicals themselves are probably machine mixed so you can likely remove that variable.
That leaves inconsistencies in the wood. Maybe the moisture content is inconsistent and having an effect.
Next is environment. Temperature control, relative humidity, cleanliness.
Application process is next: thickness of each layer, drying time in between ( may be affected by environment above) and obviously how good and consistent the person is spaying it.
That's what I can think on top of my head and I'm sure there is more.
There are lots of moving targets and anyone not being optimal can lead to a subpar outcome.
But you are right, that problem was already solved and for the price there is no excuse. I certainly wouldn't accept it on a car, and not anything else that costs 4 digits and above.

Pinball is hard that's for sure but this problem really needs to get fixed bad because I know so many people who wont buy right now. . Hopeful they get a handle on it soon.

#3393 30 days ago
Quoted from iloveplywood:

I feel lucky that my BM66 is fine and I love the game, but I'm done buying NIB from Stern even if the playfield issue gets resolved. I definitely would have purchased Stranger Things, but I'm passing now because of the way Stern treated Who-Dey and others. Hearing how others have been treated has really put a sour taste in my mouth for the hobby as a whole. (kudos to the distributors though -- I've had nothing but great experiences with you guys, sorry that this crap affects you)

Thanks buddy. Just to be fair, i have a feeling that my distributor is more to blame than Stern about me going five months and being totally ignored. I don't really know who is to blame truthfully though so please nobody ask who my distributor is because until i know for a fact that they didn't do their job i refuse to throw them under the bus. My personal belief right now though is that they didn't even turn in my complaint to Stern (twice) and they definitely didn't fight for me, i damn sure know that much. I am now finally working with Stern on a resolution but i do not believe that i will get what i deserve because my thoughts are that anyone who gets a bad quality playfield should be made whole with a new populated playfield. I did however though talk to one of the guys at Stern and he has been extremely nice and helpful to me so far.

I hope they get this figured out because i want to be a customer again and more importantly i want to see pinball keep growing so i want Stern to be a successful company.

#3425 28 days ago
Quoted from NPO:

In the spirit of "Hell with QC issues, I bought this instead", I pick this up next week.
How many LEs would this have been: I think 4 NIBs.
Oh well, too bad for you Stern, JJP, and anyone else pawning your half-baked crap on us with ever-increasing prices:

That looks nice! What kind of motor is in it?

#3432 28 days ago
Quoted from chuckwurt:

All stern playfields are cut in house and inserts are added. They then send them out for art and clear. I was told they have multiple vendors that do the art and clear.

And one of these vendors is obviously Micro.

#3454 27 days ago
Quoted from BillySastard:

You guys actually think that Stern makes their own playfields, then ships them to Germany for art and clear, then gets them shipped back? Think about that for a bit boys.

I dont think about much if anything really. It sounded good and I just said it.

#3477 25 days ago

Well no offense to anyone because you guys are all my friends but I AM a Stern fanboy but I also call it like I see it, and their quality sucks right now and there's no way that I would buy a NIB game at the moment. We will see how they treat me on my current issues also. I also just bought a IMDN topper and i gotta tell ya, that is a 400 dollar freakin joke. Cheap ass plastic topper for 400 dollars and if that isnt already embarrassing enough, the background piece wasn't cut right and and in the top right corner you can see a big gap and the light shines through it and it looks bad.

This clearcoat debacle that's going on right now though is 100 percent stopping me from buying JP2 and Elvira 3 from them. I have two bad playfields right now, I dont need or want anymore.

#3481 25 days ago
Quoted from snaroff:

I just don't know how pervasive they are (i.e. what % of games are defective).

I can answer your question for you. There are LOTS of games that are defective right now.

#3491 25 days ago
Quoted from snaroff:

Sure, but if you could "wave a wand" and stop all Stern NIB purchases, you'd be hurting the hobby you love (and it's not like there are any other companies to truly fill the void).

I agree with you and I am not on a crusade to try and get people to stop buying games and run them out of business by any means. I want the exact opposite of that, I want them to succeed and build great products because they make a product that I want and love.

With that being said though I'm also not going to hide the fact that these playfields are shit right now and my IMDN topper is shit too for 400 dollars. There are just too many things that get by their quality control and I just find it disturbing truthfully. I mean think about this, the first batch of Munsters toppers that shipped were pretty much 100% defective it appears, and then after that many of the 2nd batch weren't working either AFTER they said that they would every single one be bench tested before they shipped. That's just dumb and bad QC and bad management any way you slice it.

I love Stern games but they have got to get a handle on their quality and they have also got to stand behind their product better than they have been recently. I know they have a good track record of doing so but here lately they haven't been and have actually been ignoring customers completely for months and months and I dont like that.

I finally had to call stern after 5 months of being ignored. I'm pretty sure that my distributor is too blame for this though as their communications skills are beyond horrible. It appears as if they never even turned in my two tickets to Stern, I wont be buying from them anymore that's for sure.

I could go on for another hour ranting but I'm not going to, it is what it is. Stern knows that they need to improve I am sure and any distributors that are not taking care of their customers will learn the hard way by losing sales and losing sales in such a small market like pinball is not a good thing. I so want to blast this distributor on here that alot of people thinks is so great but I'm not going to do that just yet. Maybe one day though when I'm in the right mood.

#3499 25 days ago
Quoted from snaroff:

My Munsters CPU died within the first 2 weeks of ownership

That sucks but at least its fixable. A chipping and pooling playfield....not so much.

#3502 25 days ago
Quoted from spandol:

They didn’t have a shipping date for the replacements yet. I heard Jan, but was told a couple of weeks ago by JJP they had no firm date.

Yeah but they arent populated playfields so its unacceptable and plus the thought that he was originally going to charge customers like 500 dollars for a replacement was an insult and enough for me to never ever buy a game from him.

#3503 25 days ago
Quoted from arzoo:

But has anyone actually received a replacement playfield from JJP? I feel like Jack only acknowledged the issue after it gained traction in pinball news, then he said they (JJP) would work on a case by case basis with anyone who has a defective playfield, then the pinball news stopped talking about it, and then JJP did nothing.

He gave everyone a personal call that had a chipping playfield and buttered them up and made them gush all over themselves and forget about their shitty quality playfield. The correct thing to do would have been to call people and say I'm sorry that this happened and we will be sending you a populated playfield for your game.

I guess an unpopulated playfield is better than nothing but I personally find it unacceptable on any game that has a defect from the factory and totally unacceptable for a person that has a brand new game with a bad playfield.

#3505 25 days ago
Quoted from cpr9999:

Someday soon let us know these distributors so you save others from getting burned! Thx

Only reason I wont reveal who it is, is because I cant prove it with 100% that they didnt turn my ticket in but I will say this, even if they did turn my tickets in their communication and the way that they handle things sucks.

#3511 25 days ago
Quoted from DerGoetz:

He called me, POTCLE owner.
I sure didn't gush and told him my demands, pointing out that installing said replacement playfield will cost upwards of US$1000 as obviously neither him, Joe Newhard nor I have the time do do a swap.
He didn't give a shit, neither did Joe Newhard who went immediately silent in spite of him promising me before the sale (!!!) that I as a CE owner would get special treatment should there ever be such playfield issues. Yes, I brought the issue up before the purchase.
They both decided for me that I am getting an unpopulated playfield and that the joke is on me.
Have yet to even see that playfield.

I believe it. Just like everything else you buy, they will promise you the world but once you buy they act like they dont even know you. Really though the joke is on them because I bet that will be the last game that you ever buy off of Jack and he needs all the business that he can get from what I have heard.

#3536 25 days ago
Quoted from PinRob:

After finding some sorta resolution first with Stern are some people attempting to use some water thin super glue and put back some of the chips - if possible?

I kinda think the best thing to do would be to find some paint that matches or at least comes close and fill in the chip that way and then put a layer of clearcoat over it..it would probably never be noticable to anyone and hopefully would secure the area of further chipping.

#3584 24 days ago
Quoted from Multiballmaniac1:

So don't buy from Pinball Star too.

If he made those promises and didn't stand behind them then people need to know about it. I couldnt buy a new game right now without some kind of a guarantee on the playfield.

#3586 24 days ago
Quoted from NoQuarters:

Ditto - on playfield on my Elvira. Looks fine with about 300 plays. No artwork around posts, thinner clear and actually any dimpling is minor.

Im glad that the thinner clear has band aided the problem but unfortunately the playfields dont look as good as they used to and who knows how they will hold up long term?

#3589 24 days ago
Quoted from Lermods:

I’d like to hear if anyone has a playfield from post-expo (mid-October) that has issues. Please show the date of the game/playfield and the issues.

There have been people with problems since they started putting on the thinner clearcoat.....far less issues but there are still issues. I have a friend that has a JP2 with a bunch of fish eyes in the clearcoat and ive seen guys playfields with the artwork peeling up off the playfield. The problem i have with it is it just doesnt look as good without the thicker clearcoat and it can be done because other companies are still using thick clearcoat. This problem has not been remedied, only band aided

#3595 24 days ago
Quoted from Kiwipinhead:

Remember this 5 years ago? Sterns new playfields out in the real world. Lest we forget ,
[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]

Wow....that's not good at all there!

#3605 24 days ago
Quoted from MrBally:

Can somebody please tell me how to FIX THE CHIP?

I got some auto paint that kind of matches and I got some touch up toyota clearcoat also. That's how I'm gonna try and fix mine. I think I will put a piece of removable mylar over it also for added protection.

#3632 23 days ago
Quoted from Lermods:

I don’t think anyone in the Elvira thread has reported any issues and most seem happy with their playfields.

I'm pretty sure that a friend of mine has trouble with his Elvira playfield. I will ask him.

#3634 23 days ago
Quoted from dsmoke1986:

Do we know what their profit margin is per pin in each tier? Pro/Prem/LE?

If this is about profit margins I would rather them just make me a very high quality playfield and just charge me ever how much it cost them extra to make it. Seriously I'll pay the difference to get a good product.

Also when you try to save money you will usually end up spending a dollar to try to save a quarter. All of these complaints have to be very costly for Stern because they have to send people new play fields and they are also losing sales. You also have to pay people to handle the massive amount of complaints. It's not rocket science, just make a quality product and all of this BS gets eliminated.

#3671 20 days ago

Guys all playfields dimple, EVERY brand, JJP, CGC, SPOOKY, STERN, all of them. Also while i have seen some really bad dimpling, that BM66 pic is blown up and magnified in perfect lighting. That is not what you see when you walk up to the game and look at it. I could care less about dimpling, just give me a playfield that the clearcoat isn't pooling and chipping off of it.

#3675 20 days ago
Quoted from Yoko2una:

I wouldn't go that far. AFMr on location.
[quoted image]

And if you were to blow that pic up really big it would look as bad as that BM66, not sure why people downvoted me when all I did was state the obvious. BM66 did simple worse than most games though, no question about it.

My TWD, GOT, and GB all three dimpled really bad but of you look at them now after a couple thousand plays they dont look bad at all. You cant see the dumpling unless you hold a light up to them and they just look like an orange peel. I'm actually very picky but that doesnt bother me at all, I just play them and have fun.

#3698 20 days ago
Quoted from wrd1972:

I just took a very close look at my CPR FH playfield, and it does have some dimples after-all. However, they are FAR less obvious and Far less numerous that what I am seeing on the new Sterns

That’s because the new Sterns have much stronger flipper power and play alot faster than your funhouse does so have some more crow.

#3706 19 days ago
Quoted from wrd1972:

I am going respectfully decline the second helping, as you suggested. So maybe you can help me better understand where I am going wrong.
Are you suggesting that machines with less powerful flippers, must naturally have significantly fewer dimples in the PF simply due to being equipped with less powerful flippers?
Are you suggesting that older machines (especially WPC) wont produce a significant amount of airballs in a similar manner, as the newer Sterns?
Are you suggesting that the descending balls impact force on the PF is significantly different - simply due to the strength of the flippers?
Are you suggesting that the following formula is no longer applicable, and must be revised to account for either a 1990 pin, or a 2019 pin?
I am just having fun here poking at ya'. But in short. My antiquated FH provides countless high velocity airballs during each and every single play. So how can flipper strength really factor significantly in to the overall issue? Aint airballs - airballs regardless of the pin they occur in?
In the end of the day. I dont believe for a second that airballs and their velocities on newer Stern are significantly different than those of WPC. Maybe someone can post the actual voltages and Ohms between the two just for shits and giggles.
[quoted image]

Im just suggesting that older games don't play as fast and furious as the newer games therefore the newer games will dimple more.

#3715 19 days ago
Quoted from guitarded:

You should play more older games.

Haha yeah ok. I grew up when pinball was in its hay day. I've probably played more older games than you. Today's stern games are far more faster and wild than Funhouse ever thought about being.

Dont mistake what I am saying either as to the quality of the playfields. I know the playfields were alot bette made back then but the other truth is they didn't take the beating that today's games take.

#3718 19 days ago
Quoted from DakotaMike:

Yeah, its surprising how fast the ball can get moving on my 1980 Black Knight. Those slings move it fast, and sometimes it positively rockets down from the upper playfield.

I'm talking about flipper power and the general speed of the game, the amount of air balls etc.

#3719 19 days ago
Quoted from Guinnesstime:

This dimple talk is depressing.

What's even more depressing is when people dont know that playfields dumpling is part of pinball and they beat the subject into the ground

#3758 17 days ago
Quoted from Extraballz:

I am sorry but if it was the speed of the ball in modern Sterns causing these dimples wouldn’t they ALL have the same degree of dimpling. Some seem to have very little to none. How is that possible if ALL the machines are fast. Materials have been degraded across the board with Stern and others. The playfield issues are just an extension of the overall downgrading of materials.

For the few years that I have been into the hobby the dimpling seems about the same to me.

#3765 16 days ago
Quoted from Guinnesstime:

Maybe we can use the force to even the dimpling out?[quoted image]

I don't think that I could force myself to play that game enough to even the dimples out.

#3783 16 days ago
Quoted from donkadelic:

tna is fast as hell and tons of tna machines have no dimpling. i dont think that argument about new games being faster holds any water. its not the amount of airballs as much as the damage they're causing. brand new stern games that immediately start cratering with every airball.
after thinking about it the issue has to be the clear again. something with the formula thats preventing pooling/chipping but now super soft to airballs. there was dimpling before but never as bad as im seeing with elvira/stranger things. i havent seen a single machine yet without major problems out of the box.

Can I ask you how old you are and how long you have been in this hobby? I'm not being a smartass I promise, but I'm just curious.

New games being faster and having more flipper power absolutely makes a difference. You are never going to get a game that doesn't dimple somewhat. I just want the playfields to stop pooling and chipping and having the artwork lifting off of them I honestly could care less about dimpling and I'm very very picky about my games.

#3791 16 days ago
Quoted from Extraballz:

So all pins have some degree of dimpling so the subject is a closed case and shouldn’t even be discussed? I feel like every time someone says all pins dimple they want people to think that’s the whole story. It is not. There is a big difference in accepting some slight shallow dimples that are barely visible to a ton of huge deep craters I am seeing from Stern and others. That’s like saying someone who loses their temper once in a while is the same as someone who constantly screams at people. Those are not close. One is something you could live with and the other is not.
Spooky is at least showing they are trying to improve their quality with every title they put out. They may continue to improve quality as they go. That says something to me. That’s the formula I want to see from ALL pin companies in the future.

The point I have been trying to make is this isnt as big of a deal as what alot of people try to make it out to be. Most of these pics you see of terrible dimpling are magnified and blown up to where it looks like the surface if the moon........some people are doing this on purpose to make things appear worse than what they really are.

I've had some games that dimple worse than others no doubt but even the ones that looked really bad like my TWD and GOT look great right now after 1500-2000 plays. They look like a very fine orange peel and you dont even notice it unless you are actually looking for it.

Stern definitely has things to figure out and get better at as far as their playfield quality goes but dimpling is way down on the list of things to improve upon. Also you want to talk about how great these other companies are, go buy one of their games and you will quickly find out that they arent perfect either. They fail miserably in comparison to stern in the reliability department and they arent nearly as fun either.

#3793 16 days ago
Quoted from donkadelic:

I am totally fine with the usual amount of shallow hardly perceptible dimpling. I am not fine with 100s of giant craters all over the pf after 2 days of play. Maybe that's just me?

You should never buy a NIB game because you wont be happy. That game that looks terrible after two days of play that you are talking about will look much better after one year of play. It wont be a sheet of glass like you want it to be but it will look fine.

#3803 16 days ago
Quoted from wrd1972:

So is it fair to say that pooling and chipping is now under control due to the thinner layer of cc being applied? That was my understanding from reading previous posts.

No I wouldn't say its fair to say that at all and that's why I wont buy a NIB game right now. It's fair to say that pooling and chipping seems to be improving but I would no way say that it's under control yet.

#3804 16 days ago
Quoted from PanzerFreak:

Are the rumors out of CES 2020 true about this revolutionary anti dimple pinball?!
[quoted image]

I just had to throw away a bunch of pinballs that looked exactly like that only after a few plays. Pissed me off.

#3810 15 days ago
Quoted from Darkwing:

I’ve bought four NIB games and three of the four were fine. Still feels like a loot crate even with my (apparently lucky!) 75% success rate.
I also don’t buy the newer/faster reason why some playfields dimple and some don’t. I’ve had my Tron for about five years now, bought it NIB, and it’s not cratered at all. I wax it often and it plays meeean. Not worth getting mad and arguing about, just doesn’t add up for me.

So you are telling me that your tron didnt dimple at all? I'd like to see some pics under light.

#3821 15 days ago
Quoted from donkadelic:

again, wrong, all playfields don't dimple.
for future reference these three things are 100% false despite people repeating them over and over again.
1. all playfields have always dimpled
no. majority of bw era games and 2000-2009 era sterns, modern spookys, etc do not dimple (overall).
2. dimples level out over time.
again, no. scientifically and physically inaccurate. varying depth craters will not even out across an entire playfield unless you play probably millions upon millions of games. and also, if this were the case why dont playfields come predimpled?
3. older games are slower so they had less dimpling.
again, a lot of these 30 year old games still have no dimpling. not a ratio of dimples relative to speed. also, when a ball leaves a playfield it drops from the same height regardless of speed. could it theoretically cause more airballs on newer games given the right conditions, sure. but could older games also produce more airballs provided certain conditions...yep.
also, pointing out single examples of a bally game or a tna with dimples does not mean the majority of them have them. modern stern games, i can't find a single elvira or stranger things that doesnt have horrible dimpling days in. not saying they aren't out there, but the ratio has to be horrible even if they are.

Well there you have it folks. The new guy on Pinside knows more about pinball than all of you old folks that have been into the hobby for many years, including VID!

#3852 14 days ago
Quoted from Guinnesstime:

Here’s Ghostbusters Premium on location.
[quoted image]
Here’s TSPP[quoted image]

Umm......what a minute. I thought people were saying that TSPP didnt dimple?? Hmm.....

#3858 14 days ago
Quoted from Kiwipinhead:

You cant tell me this wouldn't effect ball travel [quoted image]

It doesn't. My GB looks like that if you hold a light to it at just the right angle. I'm sure the camera was zoomed in also and that makes the dimples look even worse. When I'm playing or just looking at my game thats not what I see. I see a playfield that has beautiful artwork on it.

My belief is ...and I may be wrong, customers were wanting the thick clearcoat and that may have led to the newer games dimpling more and of course maybe even cheaper wood as well. I also think that new EPA rules forced them to start using a different clearcoat and it's just good for pinball machines. What do I know though, I'm definitely no pinball playfield expert that's for sure.

1 week later
#3904 6 days ago
Quoted from PanzerFreak:

Yup, but we may be in another steady state again lol. I took your advice from a while back and just bought a GoldenTee 2020 to put in my last pin spot. No dimpling, and no weird QC issues. Just finished setting it up tonight and having a blast so far.
[quoted image]

Very cool! How much if you dont mine me asking?

#3907 6 days ago
Quoted from PanzerFreak:

The one I bought is an open box one used for a weekend at a show, paid $3200 delivered. Lowest prices I found for a new 2020 are $3600 - $3800 delivered. A 2019 and 2020 are the same hardware wise, just need to make sure the 2019 comes with the 2020 upgrade (it should).
The software upgrades are a bit pricey. They are $400 each year (usually come with 5 - 7 new courses) but you don't have to upgrade every year. I think with 2020 there's now 80 - 90 courses on the game so lots to do. There's also online player profiles that keep track of your stats, can view stats on a mobile app, online tournaments, and other online events. You use the keypad on the game to enter a pin to log into your player profile. Up to 4 players can play and enter their own player profile if they want. It's pretty cool overall. Just played a quick 18 holes, now time for work.

That is cool. That is the TV and everything for that price right? Is that a wall mount? Also what size screen?

#3909 6 days ago
Quoted from PanzerFreak:

Those are prices just for a new cabinet. The official GoldenTee TV stand (bolts to cabinet) is around $400 but a cheap wall mount or TV stand works fine. I bought a wall mount on Amazon for $20 and picked up a 55" TCL 5 series TV at Best Buy for $280.

I've never played a Golden Tee believe it or not. It looks pretty cool though and I've seen people play it and could tell that they were really getting into it and having alot of fun.

#3933 5 days ago
Quoted from iceman44:

I'm with you Panzer.
Super chexx ice showing up on 21st.
Golden tee is next for me too!

Me, you, Panzer, and PW can get online and battle it out iceman! We can play skins!

#3953 3 days ago
Quoted from DerGoetz:

And make sure to have it in writing.
After dealing with PinballStar I learned that the hard way.

100% true and you don't see him coming on here defending himself either like he has in other situations. He f*cked you and he knows that he f*cked you looks like to me. He deserved to get his ass drug through the mud.

#3956 1 day ago
Quoted from Mike_J:

Maybe he will take the money out of his own pocket to make it right.

Yeah probably.

#3967 1 day ago
Quoted from PinballSTAR:

Customer asked 'If JJP would take care of me' if there were issues, my reply as always is 'Yes

Well guess what? YOU need to stop telling customers that JJP will take care of them because that is obviously not true! Dont be giving me sh*t either because all I have to go on is what Goetz said and yes I do realize that there are two sides to every story. I'm still not convinced that Goetz is lying and but I guess we will never know.

What I do know though is YOU are selling a product that the manufacturers will not stand behind. Now that may not be your fault but it does still include you whether you like it or not. If I called and asked YOU "will JJP or Stern stand behind this game if the playfield is bad" are YOU going to tell me yes or will YOU be honest and say no they will not? Maybe I will test you on that one day and see.

The only acceptable solution to someone who gets a bad playfield is to get a populated playfield of good quality in return, I dont care if it takes them ten f*cking times to get it right. JACK calling people personally and offering them a unpopulated playfield for 550 dollars or whatever it was is a complete joke. Then JACK finally offering people a free unpopulated playfield is still a complete joke!

These games cost a shitload of money and it's no fun getting screwed out of 5 or 10 thousand dollars. Ship me a machine on good faith that I will pay you and then I dont and see how you like it JOE. You wanna call me out, i will argue with you all day long buddy.

I would HATE to be a salesman of a product that cost 6 to 12 thousand dollars that i knew wasnt of good quality and that the manufacturers wont stand behind. It must suck to be in that position, how do you feel about that? I would have to find another line of work personally because i couldnt look people in the eye and tell them "Yes you will be taken care of if you have a problem".

#3970 1 day ago
Quoted from PinballSTAR:

Ya you're wrong - maybe ask before you too make up stories...
Customer asked 'If JJP would take care of me' if there were issues, my reply as always is 'Yes JJP does their best to take care of customer issues' same statement as I always would make to anyone as it is my feeling with any company I represent, especially JJP. That was the end of any discussion prior to sale.
Goetz now months later claims he specifically asked me if they would give him a populated playfield. Totally untrue, period end of story. Funny that this claim of what he asked me months ago NOW only comes to light - it was never mentioned to me when he first reported the issue, never mentioned to Jack on the phone with him when he called him like he did with many customers, never mentioned in his tech support / warranty ticket. Never once, but now only now to stir the pot.
I have zero authority to promise anything to any customer. Many customers will attest that if they ask a specific question out of my hands even if it's for any company to provide a screw or a plastic or something small to them I always will carbon tech support or sometimes with JJP, Jack himself to involve the people who make those decisions in the answer. I will NEVER ever answer a specific question on how something a manufacturer is responsible for will be handled later on - EVER, and I mean if it's a $ 5 part, NEVER. I have zero authority to do so. I will always take the time to email the company and involve the customer so they get the right answer to a specific question. So, Goetz claiming I promised him JJP would provide him a populated playfield is absolute nonsense.
So then unfortunately Goetz had PF issues. JJP decided everyone would get a populated playfield. I was involved in the process to get his warranty / ticket claim submitted. I think I even arranged for Jack to call Geotz personally which he did. Obviously Geotz isn't happy with JJP's response to the PF issues and that is his right. That was months ago. Fast forward to a few weeks ago - I noticed a post from Goetz on Pinside that he hadn't gotten his playfield yet. I wasn't sure myself on the timing of these coming out so I emailed Goetz and said 'I saw your post' and proceeded to say I wanted to get you an answer and I carboned Jack on the email to ensure he didn't get missed, etc... Jack replied they are getting made at this time and that was that. I actually took the initiative to reach out and involve myself in something I wasn't asked to do - why - because I DO care. Then, and only then, did Goetz start with his claim he
asked me for a populated playfield. Jack knows it's bullshit as he gets all the emails from me for years asking questions on the smallest of things I need to answer for a customer...
Funny not one other customer got promised a populated playfield, just him. Funny this claim of his only is now an issue months later and was never mentioned before in numerous communications with many different people - me, tech support, Jack, and even here on Pinside. You'd think maybe if he was promised something so grand he would have said when he submitted his ticket 'Oh by the way I was promised a populated playfield, here's the address to send it to'... Nope nothing, didn't mention it Jack, nor me. My thought is unfortunately he is at this point trying to discredit JJP and bully and strongarm them into giving him what he wants with this tactic. Bottom line if he's going to come here to slander me with a lie, I'm going to unfortunately have to defend myself as that post wondered about. He's mad at the outcome, I get it, many folk are upset with JJP and Stern and I understand it. But the story he's spinning is untrue folks. He's looking to get a rise and stir the pot. There are 100's of customers who know how I carry myself.

The bottom line on all of this is Goetz got f*cked. Forget about any lies or him trying to strong arm JJP because none of that matters at all. What matters is he paid BIG MONEY and recieved a defective product so instead of throwing him under the bus you should be on the phone with JACK screaming at him in Goetz defense.

And while I'm at it I would like to hear you tell me and everyone on this forum that JJP did Goetz wrong. Could you please do that for me Joe since your such a honest and stand up guy?

#3972 1 day ago
Quoted from Rager170:

From what it sounds like, the guy Goetz was doing anything he could to make his situation better for himself. I would have done the same.
Paying big money for NIB games with quality issues is a big deal.

Exactly! If you are rich it's not a big deal to eat 5 or 10 grand but to some people like myself, that is a shitload of money that I personally cannot afford to lose. It takes me a hell of a long time and a lot of hard work to buy one of these games and I want it to be great quality. That shouldn't be too much to ask for from a 6-12K product.

#4007 1 day ago
Quoted from PinballSTAR:

JJP did the right thing to rebuff him even though it would have been easier to pay him off and shut him up.

Joe first of all i will say that I've heard alot of good things about you and im not trying to get personal with you so let's just get that out of the way right now. What i don’t understand is why you are trying to make Goetz look so bad. Him trying to cut a deal with JJP for 3K doesn’t piss me off at all, the man is just trying to reach a resolution with JJP on the defective product that he bought and THEY ARENT WILLING TO MAKE IT RIGHT WITH HIM. Sorry for the caps but I just want everyone to know that if they buy a game off of JJP JACK is not going to stand behind his product and make it right for them.

Goetz might be the biggest lying piece of sh*t on this earth, i have no idea, but what i do know is he should have got a free populated playfield from JJP and nothing less. I like others on here would like to hear what YOU think is an acceptable resolution for Goetz? Thats a very simple question that shouldn’t be hard to answer. Are you on JJP’s side or the side of your customers?

#4009 1 day ago
Quoted from bigehrl:

If this guy Goetz felt 100% that it was a fair and equitable deal for everyone involved, and that it would be judged as such by anyone who knew about it, it wouldn't have even crossed his mind to suggest an NDA.

He's just trying to take care of himself and get some kind of monetary resolution to his defective purchase. If JACK would have did the right thing and gave him a populated playfield it would have never gotten to the point that Goetz would have had to do that in the first place. Am i right?

#4011 1 day ago
Quoted from smalltownguy2:

I'm sorry, but the end does not justify the means here. I'm in the same boat as him with my Wonka SE. I'd rather not have this go nuclear so that the rest of us get screwed by JJP.
You can be angry and want to be made whole, but you cannot be unreasonable and unwilling to negotiate.
-wonka owner #08742206, play field #105, clear coat case #5107

Joe is the one that made it go nuclear not me and i hate to tell you this but you have already been screwed by JJP because Jack has already made it clear that he is not giving customers populated playfields.

#4014 1 day ago
Quoted from smalltownguy2:

Go back and re-read my post. Focus closely on the "negotiate" part.
-wonka owner #08742206, play field #105, clear coat case #5107

I guess im not following you. There is nothing to negotiate. If you buy a game with a defective playfield the manufacturer should send you a new populated playfield to put back in your game period.

#4015 1 day ago
Quoted from romulusx:

Alright you've made you point but let's not forget this is not just JJP.
Stern has not giving out any populated playfields either and won't

You’re right, Stern is guilty as well. I never said that they wasnt but we aren’t talking about Stern right now.

#4041 22 hours ago
Quoted from pinballaddicted:

That will not resolve the issues, if anything make them worse. Would push used prices up too and back to not enough machines to go round to meet demand.
What would you propose to fill the hole in the market?

The only answer is for these companies to up their quality on these games and to stand behind their products or they aren't going to be around long term. I definitely do not want to see them fail but if they are going to screw their customers I really shouldn’t care if they do either.

#4063 10 hours ago
Quoted from Durzel:

You ought to have a problem with someone who is allegedly using both blackmail and also saying that they will actively LIE to the community about their resolution. That goes beyond an NDA in my opinion, an NDA is keeping quiet - not actively undermining the efforts of other people in the same situation by misrepresenting your position. It is the epitome of "f**k you, got mine".
I have every sympathy for anyone caught in the position of having a defective playfield be it Stern or JJP, and I totally get that $5k+ is a cost that means different things to different people. I can even sympathise with people who ultimately just want to get THEIR pinball fixed, and aren't going to lose much sleep if the whole community don't get the same deal.
I would personally draw the line at making shady backroom deals and threatening the company with blackmail and stating that you will lie to the community about what you got. That says more about one's morals I think, and goes beyond pinball.
Having said all of the above - it is all conjecture. 3 sides to the story is right.

First of all Durzel I'd like to say that there arent many people in this world that has better morals than me so I hope you arent attacking my morals when you don't even know me. Goetz exhausted all things with Jack sounds like and he was just trying to get some kind of monetary compensation for his defective pinball machine. I don't think he was trying to screw the entire pinball community by any means. JACK should have made it right long before he ever had to try such drastic measures to get compensated. I also dont think he was gonna lie to the community, I think be was just going to go away quietly.

The real problem here is manufacturers arent standing behind their product and I am on here fighting for what's in the best interest of EVERYONE on this forum that buys a NIB game and gets screwed, so please dont try and make me out to be the bad guy because I'm not and that's just silly.

The reason I am so passionate about it is because I have two games myself right now that came with playfield defects that have yet to be resolved. I'm not on here just trying to be a dick because I like being that way. I think it's wrong when people don't get compensated for a defective product that cost so much money like these games do, it's just not acceptable.

#4065 9 hours ago
Quoted from Durzel:

I wasn't talking about you.
I was talking about the email to JJP that pinballstar apparently has from Goetz which proposed a $3k discount off a future pin, and offering to sign a NDA and "keep quiet" (from the community) about the resolution, and whatever else it said. I didn't say he was trying to "screw the entire pinball community", but - depending on the exact wording of the email - it could be construed as rather poor form, at the very least. This is all conjecture though, as said.
I thought I was very clear about the distinction between someone who is having problems with their pin who ultimately wants THEIR situation to be resolved, and making suggestions to the manufacturer through backchannels which could undermine the efforts of the affected community as a whole.

I dont know the entire situation but as of right now I just look at it as a guy that was trying to get some sort of compensation from a manufacturer that basically said I sold you a shitty product and I'm not going to stand behind it and theres not a damn thing that you can do about it so screw you!

As I said before, if Jack would have done the right thing and sent the guy a populated playfield in the first place then it would have never had to get to that point. I just for the life of me cant understand how a pinball manufacturer can sell someone a 12K defective game and not have to stand behind it. That should be illegal.

#4072 7 hours ago
Quoted from PinballSTAR:

Wait so NOW I DIDN'T promise you a populated playfield ? REALLY ? Now you agree I only said what I have been saying all along ? Because that was what started all this - your lie that I SPECIFICALLY promised you a populated playfield vs my contention I stated in general terms 'JJP takes care of their customers', which of course I feel about every single company I represent. AND I will add this was when the PF issues were in their infancy and they were sending post kits out - it was not as widespread which would have warranted a more in depth conversation. You sent me the email - I have it - you have it - why don't you post it where you confirm what I said back in September vs the lies you told Jack to coerce him and what you came on here stating I told you. THAT is the crux of the whole argument - that you contend I promised you something - so no mention of that now - are you now in agreement after attacking me that that wasn't what went down ?
I also got back to you with on my vacation - as a matter of fact the email I sent you yesterday to review states from you in some form 'Sorry to bother you on your vacation, thank you for getting back to me, and there is no rush' etc.... So now I never got back to you or what you said at the time in your email true ? Which is it ? Make up your mind. Because you keep lying and saying what I did but that is not what occurred. Tell the truth. Show the emails you wrote.
I threatened no legal action - give me a break - with your lies to JJP and what you were starting on Pinside I said I would defend myself if needed and unfortunately this is the result. Again, another example of you creating your own truth and adding to conversations things that just did not exist. And when I asked if you had it in writing it was because you NEVER once mentioned the populated playfield thing until what 4 months later ? All of a sudden this was some thing you said I 'lured' you into buying your game with - I said if it was such a pivotal piece of information you solely based your purchase on, it's a wonder it was never discussed in any emails and of course it was 'over the phone', meaning - you made it up later on to coerce JJP.
No friend told me anything - I saw your post on my own where you stated you didn't get your playfield yet and I emailed you and Jack to ask you if there was anything we can do get you your playfield... Jesus Christ you can't tell the truth for anything... I'm happy to post that email if you'd like. It's pretty basic - a distributor inserting himself into a situation to try to help without being asked to do so... I'd say that's pretty commendable. I did that on my own to make sure you were ok. THEN and only then did you see an opportunity to make your whole populated playfield story up. Never before was it mentioned... Only when I do a good thing and try to see if I can get you a status do you all of a sudden have a problem with me. I think you're conniving, calculated, and have a very skewed moral compass. As a matter of fact after your tirade to JJP, which Jack knew was BS, I told him as I tried to figure out what was up with you... 'Jack I actually think he's trying to come after me to pressure you to give in to him since he may think you'll try to buy him off to save me some headaches'... It was just a suspicion then, but after I found all your earlier extortion emails yesterday from September I'm convinced you know exactly what you are doing. Creating a shit storm, involving me as a pawn, and trying to cause trouble. Really disappointing someone even has that capacity to be like that.
I didn't post here on Pinside and start anything - YOU did. I am telling the truth of who you are and what you did. I had no choice to defend myself when you are on here posting lies... You tried to EXTORT a special deal from JJP for yourself in the form of a $ 3,000 discount on another game (so much for outrage against JJP that you wanted more JJP in the future, huh ?) and were rightfully rebuffed, you said nobody online would know, you'd lie and post you got an unpopulated playfield and were ok with that, even saying you'd sign an NDA ! You didn't give 2 shits about the community in general - you cared about you and didn't care who got shafted. No different than what you are doing to me right now. Why don't you tell each and every reader in this thread how you were willing to sell them all out for your own personal benefit ? If you got your deal you'd be on here lying to them - singing everyone's praises, mine and JJP's if they gave in. Nice guy folks huh ?
You know you're BAD for the community which is why I'm standing up against you. I care about the hobby. The PF issues sucked, yes of course, I'm not saying in any shape or form that customers shouldn't be mad. BUT if you think these sort of tactics against a company and a distributor - lying and slandering people like you are - aren't going to make any of these companies feel all good about helping people more... Why would they believe anyone's claims about things if this sort of extortion is allowed to occur. Why would any distributor openly try to involve themselves in situations like I did when this is the thanks I get for it. I should have been like everyone else and kept my mouth shut instead of standing up for my customer and taking the initiative to make sure you got what you were promised.
So... if you really want to do the right thing - POST THE EMAILS YOU SENT ON 9/9 AND 9/15 I sent you yesterday after I found them - and show everyone what really went down - how no mention of a populated playfield was made nor promised by me, and how you tried to extort JJP, and how you had nothing but glowing commentary about how I treated you then... Then try to explain when all of a sudden 4 months later all of this is now occurring. You got caught and overplayed your hand. Admit it.
POST THE EMAILS and show the community you are now using as your platform. I'm sure you're afraid to do so... Take my challenge and post them in full as I sent them to you yesterday. I have nothing to hide, I'm telling every bit of truth here, YOUR emails prove it - you're coming after me so post the emails and let the community you are using with your nonsense decide. Anyone dealing with you is susceptible to the same nonsense. I have 100's and 100's of people I've dealt with for years respectfully and successfully and it's funny you're the only one who has been so mistreated, that's weird huh ?

Joe even if all of this stuff that you are saying is true about Goetz, you still look bad by not saying that JJP screwed him by not standing behind their product. You should be as pissed off at JJP as you are at Goetz and talking to Jack in this same manner. Jack has caused every bit of this situation but you wont publicly admit it and for that reason you would probably be better off by not posting all of this bullshit on here and just not say anything at all.

#4093 6 hours ago
Quoted from thirdedition:

I don't understand this thought process, get rid of distributors like Joe who are actually trying to help customers.

Joe is probably a decent guy, I dont doubt that a bit but if distributors have no influence on the manufacturer then why do we need them? I would just rather buy factory direct and cut out the middle man and have the savings passed on to me.

#4097 6 hours ago
Quoted from snaroff:

a pile of money is being made by the distributors with no insurance for selling the defective products to it's customers.

I agree with this 1000%.

#4098 5 hours ago

I think one thing we can all agree on (unless you're a total moron) is that there needs to be a lot of changes in the pinball industry when it comes to buyer protection. The customer is the LAST person that should be losing his hard earned dollars when a defective product is sold to him.

#4134 2 hours ago
Quoted from wrd1972:

In a large part yes.

I agree with that also but then again you dont see CGC having any problems.

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